Innovation

[Dracey]

why talk about this, when the real problem is the players who reject the ones with different ideas?

The simplest answer I can provide is *drum rolls* ---- "Why not?"

Why not talk about it? It's got great potential for a meaningful opened discussion. And being a topic on human behavior that anyone can relate to makes this a fantastically interesting thread in my opinion. I do take sides but remember that there is absolutely no "right" or "wrong" for this discussion.

I don't think the problem is players rejecting other players with different ideas. I think it's more direct than that, perhaps it is that people are simply rejecting new ideas, period. But that's just what I think

[Dracey]

One of the (if the only one maybe) most fun Hound of Xoriat runs I had the pleasure of taking part in was where my drow wizard was the "Tank".... All of about 300 HP at the time and solid fog to keep their aggro... A couple people (one of which was one of our 2 healers) got angry at the very idea of even attempting it that way and dropped so we pushed ahead with 8 or 9 people.

So, with one healer, and a gimp drow wizard tank and 6 others we go in and complete it in 4 or 5 minutes as usual.

Innovation in its' very nature is the true heart of DnD...

oh and DDO is doing okay with it too if you give it a chance.

Oh boy can I relate. I've tanked for HoX from normal to elite on my former lvl20 Wizard All the time via Solid Fog. Gotta love the group reaction when they're all like "oh ****, we're screwed" and then we prove them wrong each time! *grins*

But here's another thing that bothers me. As much as we try to set an example, that A wizard (and essentially anyone) can solid fog tank HoX, the only thing we truly establish is our personal reputation. People who have learned to trust you as a wizard to tank will still never trust other wizards to do the same.

And in many Other scenarios, if people become so doubtful, a simple (Not always reliable) myddo screening could be done, or ask the player to link some of their gears (Also a routine I generally dislike)

But yeah, there are plenty of innovative examples like these throughout DDO.

[Bargol]

Tanking is more about the ability of the person at the controls and less about the build or gear.....well.....a dump stat toon any class will have trouble with anything regardless.

I agree that there are many ways to accomplish a goal some work better then others, but getting the completion with the least amount of resources spent is the goal of most groups.

I remember almost 2 years ago....before epic difficulty before many of the newer quests. I was a new player in VON for my second time. The first time we had trouble with dropping the towers at the same time on the bases. The tactic that was used was for one person to run around to aggro all the mobs so others could come and take down the towers....it worked but not really well. So this next time I suggested "why not have the bard go and facinate / enthrall / charm the mobs on the bases". I was laughed at like that would be an instant fail. Funny how the bard tactic became the "normal" thing for awhile.

Some of the normal ways do have merits but the raids have many ways of doing them to end at the same result...another completion and loot in your inventory.

[Dracey]

"I'll be tanking and i wa....."

"Whats your AC?"

"Er.. Idk what that matters, but atm, 45... anyways... i want the healers to foll..."

"Are you sure you don't want me to tank? I have 123192873619283612 ac"

".. um.. no thanks, just want u running right with the crew, you can help most there... And I want the wiz to pick up the first two st.."

"*** a rog/wiz/clr/bard is gonna tank? FAWK This noob group" *Drops group*


Yup.. been there I meet them often(we've discussed this before i think kuni hehe)

lol Yeah, I've decided that the discussion deserved a forum thread for other people to post their inputs and not just me ranting to you and hiyashi in private. And hey, including your post, there's a lot of entertainment value in this thread! I'm quite satisfied

And a random-ish note, why I chose limit the exposure by posting specifically on Sarlona Server Section is to minimize the amount of people who neglect the message (sorta how they neglect your instructions and are distracted by your rogue icon) and instead stare at the fact that these are actually my first few posts so like "Who the hell is this noob forum user Dracey?" At least with Sarlona, there's a few people that recognize Kuniken and that gives me a little bit more respect than if this were to be posted elsewhere like I don't know... the community section?

[Dracey]

For Raolin's Unedited quote, click here.

***SPOILER: INCOMING TL;DR***
... ...

... ...Some people are simply ignorant (welcome to the real world) and can't fathom there being a different way, possibly even more efficient, than the way they do it... ...

... ...Well, some people are in a hurry to get the gear, get the xp, and gtfo.

... ...

Ignorance and the real world? Definitely, welcome one and all.

Get the gear, get the xp, and gtfo? lol sounds right to me >_>

[AMDarkwolf]

Well I'd suggest keep it in sarlona for the time being, due to the fact that, personally, this relates to you closer. Different servers have different attitudes about certain things, example is on other servers, shroud part 4, everyone just mobs the center, kills in center, never moves except to dodge the blades, then back in, for all the scouts. On sarlona we will all go to the left of where we port in, throw down cc there and deal with the scouts from that point. Neither way is 'wrong' its just a preference and this thread, in a way, explains how the server attitudes have evolved, not quite 'how' but shows us today's result.

I don't think its 'wrong' to want a wf tank, at least when you put up that lfm(with its limited space for text) you ask for what you 'know' can be healed though the curse. If the space for description on the lfm was larger, i'm sure you would see "Looking for sully tank, warforged, HoTD pally, palemaster..." etc. But since we are limited, and we all(or most of us) know that a warforged can be reconstructed regardless of the anti-healing curse, this is what we ask for.

And again, just like you already stressed, because this is what is listed, and what people see, this is what tehy 'expect' to ask for, so they run it that way, see it 'works', and its 'solid'

The same can be said for the way u kill sojek in sos, how u deal with harry in parts 4/5, DQ raids(before and after methods), and so on. People see it run 'THAT' way, see it works most of the time, and that sticks.

To be honest, I myself would not trust 'any' wiz to tank, but then, I would not expect 'any' wiz to survive what i KNOW kuni can.(or could, u jerk went and tr'ed ) Thing is, and this is the saddest thing, I see many multiple past life AM's bragging about their 42 dc's and it makes me shake my head, since kuni, without yugo pots, without any 'epictacular' gear, or ship buffs(And like me, I know u despise ship buffs lol) you were able to out preform many of those AM's ive seen. Both with damage from your bolts, the DC's on your holds, and, when you felt like it, your ability to 'tank' and melee.

And while I on Atma get refused shroud runs, or vod runs, and so on, I am no longer hurt much, cuz I KNOW i can do this stuff, and usually make it easier on the healers in said group. I Find it funny when I get denied because I'm not 'whats the norm'

All i say, to everyone, is give it a shot now and then and be different, sometimes it works, sometimes its even better. (And yes, sometimes it can go horribly, horribly wrong )

[Dracey]

There are plenty of people out there trying to do things differently, and are adapting their strategies to fit the group (rather than the more common other-way-around method).

These players don't pug much because they're sick of newbies whining about things being done differently (or just not stepping up to the plate). Overall I think a lot of it is the loss of name recognition from the swarms of new players: they have no idea who the 'pro' guilds are (and therefore who to learn from). The other one is ego: everyone wants to feel 'leet' despite that fact that very very few are. They don't want to try another strategy and risk failure (and therefore demonstrate that they aren't as good as they thought). It's easier to play conservative.

This is true. A lot of the conservative play (admittedly more advantageous) results in more exclusive groups that leave newcomers behind. It is unfortunate, and even more so unfortunate that I can't blame them for their decision on that either O_<

The ego/e-peen thing is a sad sad cause. But hey, we can always humor ourselves in observing them making a fool of themselves. hehe...

[Dracey]

Tanking is more about the ability of the person at the controls and less about the build or gear.....well.....a dump stat toon any class will have trouble with anything regardless.

I agree that there are many ways to accomplish a goal some work better then others, but getting the completion with the least amount of resources spent is the goal of most groups.

I remember almost 2 years ago....before epic difficulty before many of the newer quests. I was a new player in VON for my second time. The first time we had trouble with dropping the towers at the same time on the bases. The tactic that was used was for one person to run around to aggro all the mobs so others could come and take down the towers....it worked but not really well. So this next time I suggested "why not have the bard go and facinate / enthrall / charm the mobs on the bases". I was laughed at like that would be an instant fail. Funny how the bard tactic became the "normal" thing for awhile.

Some of the normal ways do have merits but the raids have many ways of doing them to end at the same result...another completion and loot in your inventory.

Yeah, funny how things transition.

And sadly this just goes back to my hypocrisy comment. What's up with people who will say it Must be done via PlanAlpha and no other way and now these Same people all of a sudden say it Must be done via PlanFascinate and no other way. During the transition between the two Plans, they have proven that they Can give room for innovation.
But what about Before and After?
"What? There's a different way of doing this? Well, MY way is better because I've successfully done it before, yo!" /end sarcasm

[Dracey]

@AMDarkwolf

Hehe, yeah, despite all the rejections and disbelief I just can't help but find it all funny. And like you, I Know what I can do and have done so. And as corny as it sounds, having proven to Myself that just about anything is possible is what, in my opinion, ultimately what counts in the end - simple, personal self interest.

[moops]

Its pretty funny the misconception people have about main tanks and how much uber DPS one needs to finish a quest or raid, and sometimes downright aggravating,. . .but then again that is why I or a guildie leads most of the raids that I do.

Even in this thread someone mentions why a WF is better for sulu in TOD... .But, I have used many non TR'd Dex Based AC builds, whom handled their own curses, and didn't lose aggro on most runs. . . Ive also seen WF Barbs lose Aggro. . .It just happens. . .Losing aggro is not that huge of a thing anyway. Sometimes I even implore people to try and STEAL the aggro for fun

We tend to do some things a bit different, and as someone who usually has the star, even tho I both type and explain in party chat. . .Some people just don't listen. For instance, In TOD, I kill the Jailer and the Judge at the same time usually with just 2 melee and melee healer who also does some kind of DPS on the Jailer. . .the last group I lead, the people in it were used to everyone killing jailer first so a few of them ran over there, only I had no healer on the Jailor as an Arcane was healing the WF. . .but a few deaths are nothing, 2 or 3 strong people can get any raid done. Anyway, I try to make it a race and tell the Jailer people to push their "play harder" buttons, Jailer often times drops before the Judge

My favorite raid LFMS are the ones that say DPS needed and leave Rangers off of them.

[nolaureltree000]

there is a noticeable differentiation in 'rules' between general PUGing and running with guildies or generally competent groups. while it may not be *essential* to have a WF tank for VoD, it is more or less a notch or two below essential when it comes to PUGing. if the fleshy tank didnt have a decent amount of healing amp or enough AC to be meaningful, id be quite tempted to drop group and run something else because 80% of the time, its just going to be a giant waste of time.

the only times ive PUGed VoD and seen the healers left with more than slivers of SP at the end of the raid is when ive run with guildies or gotten into a guild run that PUGed out a few spots. all the general PUGs ive ran, there has always been one or more issues that are a SP drain for the healers. be it ranger that decides hes gonna help out tanking (and not one that is built/geared for tanking anyways), casters with 250 SP, melees without 100% fort, people never drinking any heal pots in between fights, someone not having curse pots, people not focusing on one orthon and instead all fighting their own, etc.

in short, while PUGing VoD a WF tank is pretty essential because a large majority of the time, the group itself needs all the healer's SP. i realize im nit-picking a small segment of the thread topic, but my point is that these 'rules' are usually the result of crappy PUGs. they are there to make running these quests more smoothly when dealing with the lowest common denominator.

obviously there are other ways to get these quests and raids done, but when its not uncommon for PUGs to have a hard time getting the 'easy-mode' methods to go right, innovation becomes a handicap of sorts fairly quickly.

i do agree with alot of what you are saying, i just dont think its fair to blame all the 'rules' on people being sticks in the mud either.

[Calozz78]

When these lfm's get posted with "wf tank for sully" its one guy with 1 or no guildies in it. It is easier to use a method that you know works when you don't know or trust the others in grp.

When good guilds post lfm's it usually "4spots anything" because we already have the "important" roles filled. I pref running with guildies and know what they bring to the table.

When I dont know the people "the standard" way is pref. (less typing and explaining)

Experiments and thinking "outside the box" is for mostly guild runs and Super pugs (people i know and have run with a lot)

Ever tried to kite tod on your ranger? For some reason its much easier on my sorc but have seen a monk do it just fine (great job keens)


What it comes down to is who has the star. If you would like to do it another way, make another grp and run it how you see fit. (just dont fail, pugs get angry when you try something different and fail)

[Culver.Civello]

Some Innovation anywhere in the game is nice, not just in raids. The problem with this is, very few people possess the skill as the party leader to actually lead correctly enough to coordinate such things, in which you find usually only in static groups of players who have played together for a long while. On top of this, you must do it in a fashion that is not bossy or with an elitist attitude that turns most players away from following such innovative paths from what they are used to. Of course this isn't all on the party leader, but also on the party's willingness to follow along... but a lot of it does have to do with successful leadership. I think this might be why a lot of people dislike PUGs as well. A lot of PUG leaders do not take the chance to take charge of their party and lead with effectiveness, and when that doesn't happen, it creates a internal debate with the rest of the players who either; A.) Do their own thing, or B.) Everyone is trying to take some role in leadership which leads to mix-ups and sadly... mishaps.

As a prime example to this... Samius talks about this exact thing in the latest episode of DDOCocktailhour, in which he had a good PUG. I think the main attribute of his little talk was that the Leader actually took charge and led with effectiveness. I'm getting a little off topic here, but creating Innovation would work the same way. It requires good leadership for the most part to really successfully run a party and step into new ideas and ways of doing things. Don't get me wrong... I do believe a lot of the things we do now are effective, but they aren't the only way.. and some of the ideas that have been pressed on to the newer generation of players are just not true at all. For example... Rogues not being good DPS. Lolz. The all Rogue Shroud run has proved that wrong. Yes, some of these ideas are effective, but I believe innovation can create a more interesting perspective to the way the game is played. Too often quest can become rather boring when you are basically doing the same things over and over again. It is nice to step out of that normality and try something new.

Thoughts?

[Atree]

Innovation is not limited to raid strategies. A common misconception in DDO is the pigeonholing of classes into designated play styles, aka "know your role". Cleric = healbot, rouge = trapsmith, fighter/barbarian = tank/dps. And conversely must have fighter/barbarian/paladin to tank, must have pure rogue for traps, etc.

My favorite toon to play is a somewhat unconventional cle/rog/fig build.

If I mention that I can disable traps many a pug leader states adamantly that it is not possible since I only have 1 lvl of rogue. When I point out that I have twink gear from my previous life on top of maxed out skills, and proceed to disable anyway I am told that in end game that can't possibly work. The fact that I am a TR and have actually disabled epic traps doesn't seem to matter.

In most quests I tell people that it would be best if they let me get lots of agro since it is the most efficient method of keeping everyone healthy. I often have more hp than 1st lifers (silly low ml on raid gear) and I regen sp when hit (torc + con-op) which nicely offsets my low sp pool. Admittedly I've not tried tanking HoX or VoD, but I did tank Lailat and Sinvala at lvl 15 and the boss of Monastery (whatshisname the Scorrow) at lvl 18.

I was in a guild for a few months. Despite solid performance in end-game raids (elite ToD, eChrono, eDQ, etc) I was still getting derisory comments from certain guildies that couldn't understand how my build functions. A few did realize the potential and were happy to shortman quests with me or let me take on alternate roles where appropriate. In pugs, where you meet people for the first time and likely not see them again it is much harder to get off the beaten path.

While innovation is a good thing, it does require some modicum of intelligence to appreciate. Some people are shepherds others are of a more wooly disposition.

[Kages]

I try to make it a race and tell the Jailer people to push their "play harder" buttons, Jailer often times drops before the Judge

Wish I had a play harder button... xP
Anyways, back on topic.

Topic: People need to think for themselves, formulate their own plans or at least understand that there is no such proper One way of enjoying the game. Far too many experienced players have failed in the most epic fashion to appreciate this, but what happened to Innovation?

Although I do agree with this even though you dont want agreements.

There are no perfect players, perfect plays, perfect ways to play a game. The most basic definition of the word game is "an amusement or pastime", but then it could also be said this way "a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators." Either way, it is for amusement and fun. If you aren't having fun with what you do in a game then what is the point of playing it. Innovation is always good and I encourage it in any party I play in. To give examples I have seen a Epic Von 6 done with no bard we used disco balls aswell as otto's resistable/irresistable from high dc wiz's to control the mobs. I have also seen it done with 2 intim tanks holding down mobs on base ice and mephit. There are no wrong ways to do anything and it is sometimes fun to test yourself and your friends to enjoy a game. After all, thats the best part.

I'm pointing out that not enough people properly explain Why things run the way they do when teaching a newcomer... and that not enough newcomers will openly ask "why?"

This is one of the larger issues I've noticed comparing the large number of MMO's I've played, so it's not just here. There are too many impatient people out there that think they can learn something in one go and fail to repeat without the help of experienced players in previous groups. Not only this, but they refuse to accept criticism regardless of how helpful the person is trying to be. The new people that this is in regards to aren't the only problem either, I can't express the annoyance I have had at seeing a new player ask for help to see one of my friends and or beta vet players in game dump on said new player just for assuming the vet would help. Annoyance is hardly a proper term, but I will keep this PG13.

Innovation is great if you have a group that's willing to give it a shot, but that is not the norm for PUGs, where most people just join to get a completion however they can manage it. The primary reason for that is because when you change things up, you tend to fail more often at first than using the normal methods.

Awesome bro, love this comment. So true in so many ways. The new players do not have the resorces that some of us older players have with our mass friends list and or large guilds. True some of these so called "PUGs" (hate this word btw) ride the mass invitation train thrown out by guilds such as Griffens Nest and more power to them. Hopefully there are several well experience players in said guilds to help these players get the most enjoyment out of the game. This said majority of these guilds do not, so they are forced to rely on you, and all other players on the server that host raids and or parties to teach them. They may not ask for it, they may not want it, but they still see you and what you do and learn no matter if they want to or not. Now if they use said learned knowledge is another thing. Anyways back on track, It is truely diffecult for new players to get in these learning groups to learn the raids themselves much less new ways of doing it.

Innovation in its' very nature is the true heart of DnD...

Amazing! Well said, plain and simnple.

Having Any One of these unique builds perform the tanking role does Not change the standard game plans in any way. But yes, most people are still unwilling to give these less common tanks a chance. I won't blame them but I also think it's unfortunate.

True in so many ways. One of my closest friends has a rogue with HP/AC/DR/Intim that was almost unmatched. He only disolved the build in account of the upcoming changes to Intim making the build no longer work. Give him time, he will make something out of it though.

Oh boy can I relate. I've tanked for HoX from normal to elite on my former lvl20 Wizard All the time via Solid Fog. Gotta love the group reaction when they're all like "oh ****, we're screwed" and then we prove them wrong each time! *grins*

So true, I don't know how many times I've gone down to HoX on my sorc, with a group I expected expected to be ready to find out when we get there they didn't designate a tank. As many times as I have tanked hound I volunteered to take care of it. The first time was probably the most interesting.

Forgive the lengthiness of this convo, got in a bit late and didn't want to make 10 posts to catch up.

[Dracey]

@moops

A fractional reason for starting this thread was to poke fun of the misconceptions. I'm glad that I'm receiving many responses that have a sense of humor, including yours.

Off note, I love those LFMs! Incidentally, before I decided to go on a TR Spree, I originally had settled with a Ranger. Irrelevant to the topic - but I'd say it did me good by influencing me to lead the majority of my Raids while most PuG Leaders don't know what Ranger DPS is and would Never accept my silly little Bow Icon.

[Dracey]

@nolaureltree000

Admittedly, PuGs can be too scary for people to do it any other way than the formulated Standard or Default method (I disagree with the notion of “easy mode”). You are right that, innovation does become a handicap for some of these situations. But I believe for that to be a Good thing so as long as the players treat it as a learning experience, and unfortunately this probably is Not true for most players or that perhaps when they fail they'll become even more convinced that the Standard method (let's just say WF sully tank) is the One and only way.

And I'm not talking about players like you who have a preference for the Standard methods when dealing in PuGs; Having a complete stranger fleshy tank is often worrisome. But at least players like you understand that it's possible and at many times better than Standard, provided that you've had past experiences with that tank. The people who I Am pointing fingers at are the people that Deny all possibilities except Standard.

I've stressed that there are no right or wrongs, and that anything I say are nothing more than opinions. I think, provided that I've given the ample amounts of examples and that I've even occasionally thrown out counter arguments against my own thoughts, my opinions should be somewhat fair. I'm not accusing against rules, I'm accusing against human nature that applies those rules. Nevertheless, blame is such a strong word, I'm more or less Ranting at worst.

I think that I rant too much


*edit* Thanks Calozz78, I'm going to steal the whole "Standard" notion

[Dracey]

Some Innovation anywhere in the game is nice, not just in raids. The problem with this is, very few people possess the skill as the party leader to actually lead correctly enough to coordinate such things, in which you find usually only in static groups of players who have played together for a long while. On top of this, you must do it in a fashion that is not bossy or with an elitist attitude that turns most players away from following such innovative paths from what they are used to. Of course this isn't all on the party leader, but also on the party's willingness to follow along... but a lot of it does have to do with successful leadership. I think this might be why a lot of people dislike PUGs as well. A lot of PUG leaders do not take the chance to take charge of their party and lead with effectiveness, and when that doesn't happen, it creates a internal debate with the rest of the players who either; A.) Do their own thing, or B.) Everyone is trying to take some role in leadership which leads to mix-ups and sadly... mishaps.

As a prime example to this... Samius talks about this exact thing in the latest episode of DDOCocktailhour, in which he had a good PUG. I think the main attribute of his little talk was that the Leader actually took charge and led with effectiveness. I'm getting a little off topic here, but creating Innovation would work the same way. It requires good leadership for the most part to really successfully run a party and step into new ideas and ways of doing things. Don't get me wrong... I do believe a lot of the things we do now are effective, but they aren't the only way.. and some of the ideas that have been pressed on to the newer generation of players are just not true at all. For example... Rogues not being good DPS. Lolz. The all Rogue Shroud run has proved that wrong. Yes, some of these ideas are effective, but I believe innovation can create a more interesting perspective to the way the game is played. Too often quest can become rather boring when you are basically doing the same things over and over again. It is nice to step out of that normality and try something new.

Thoughts?

Your first sentence is exactly what I'm getting at. This topic isn't limited to raids. We don't need anymore repeated stand alone VoD examples in this discussion. And if you're going to use the VoD example, please provide either an Argument to tie it in or at least an Interesting personal experience story (preferably “something different,” maybe even with humor). An example by itself, without arguments, without humor or whatever, is just simply dull and perhaps meaningless. I mean what was the first first sentence, in red, of the original post? Lol! >_> Maybe I should've used a different color ;O

Anyways...Lack of leadership skills does become a problem. Scenario A becomes reliant on luck - who you managed to recruit and if one or more of them can pull the group together by simply doing their own thing. With Scenario B you have people forgetting the importance of leadership that is organization. There is definitely a line to draw between sensitivity and bossiness or elitism for leaders when dealing with people, especially in PuGs. I honestly don't have anything to add, but if an idea does pop up I'll throw it out here.

Meanwhile, I'd like to see if anyone else has any thoughts about this?

[Dracey]

@Atree

The irony is that most pure rogues didn't become pure rogues for the sake of trap skills (Most common are assassin rogues). People like us who are more opened to innovation can see that People that decided to take 1 Rogue splash are actually more reliable because they've built it in with the intent of doing traps (if not umd, or both). Here's a common build that exaggerates and supports your arguments further:

Wizards with Rogue Splash. They will still get the same harsh comments, and yet Wizards are the only class you would Not hesitate to max out Intelligence as high as possible. Because of their insane intelligence modifier, Wizard/Rogues easily have the Highest trap skills in game Without much sacrifice to enhancement points or combat abilities (For the purpose of exaggeration, a Lvl 12 Pure Intelligence Mechanic Rogue is going to fall short of combat abilities though still viable). Despite the Wizard/Rogue trap abilities, So many people still don't trust their trap abilities.

And yes, they cut off a small portion of their casting abilities as most people will argue. but in the hands of a competent player, that is irrelevant.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said... And props for tanking with torq/con-opp. That's basically how I'd play my former wizard Often more effective than kiting (I hate kiting).

But come on other people, More disagreements! We need more people from the other side to respond! ;x

[toshiyanemura]

I think the biggest problem in trying to spur on more "innovation" is that we all already have ideas about what "can't be done." And I don't mean things that are technically impossible, like making a bard pally (although I've oddly enough encountered a monk barbarian....) but from my own experiences builds like cleric-rogues and wizard-fighters were said to be impossible. Blah and blah quest can only be completed if we have a rogue/tank/healer etc. When I started playing I just did what everyone told me to - I figured they were right and knew the game better. Even now sometimes I look at a person's build and think to myself "what were they thinking?!"

However then I realize I contradict myself since my current favorite character happens to be a cleric/monk/rogue which I've used to solo Proof is in the Poison on normal and hard at lv5 without using a hireling. With that same character I joined a pug with a "real" rogue and a "real" cleric both of which ended up in my pocket for a ride after the first fight. The "real" dps could barely stay alive chugging tons of pots between fights. A lot of my success comes with knowing the quest but at the same time I wouldn't have been able to do everything necessary to get by being a "real" anything. This build can't heal as much as a full cleric or do traps as well as a full rogue or dps as well as a full monk - there are definitely limitations.

With innovation we realize there are limits, but these same limits are what keeps us from being innovative to begin with. Sometimes you try something and it doesn't work for you, then you tell everyone it can't be done so no one does it. Sometimes you do something amazing and tell everyone... and no one believes you because it can't be done.