Innovation

[Dracey]

Before responding, keep in mind that this is NOT a VoD or HoX thread. And please at least read the actual topic highlighted in bold red.

Now much of this post is just purely my opinion, but many players seriously do seem to wrongly have this impression that a Warforged and Only a Warforged is Necessary for tanking Sully in VoD much in the same way many players strongly believe that a Bard and Only a Bard is Necessary to run stones in HoX. If for the correct intent, then in these two scenarios the selection process in roles originally rest on convenience and efficiency and not necessity but I digress.

One of the major problems I've experienced are leaders passing on these tactics to newcomers so firmly as if asserted to be the one and only correct method. And in time those newcomers will follow the pattern and influence future newcomers to follow the same tactic as if there are no other. I only have experiences in Sarlona, but a simple issue like this is what hurts a perfectly decent MMORPG.

Other trends and pressed ideas may include:
- You Must have Two healers in a shroud
- You must be this tall to ride, er.. I mean you must have at least 450 HP to shroud (N difficulty)
- The Barbarian is a superior tank because over 9,000 hit points will surely survive
- OMG Your Icon (Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Etc) says that you cannot possibly tank
- Your build is gimp, reroll into This!
- Etc, etc, etc
* Feel free to add to this truly Endless list, there is some entertainment value in this

Topic: People need to think for themselves, formulate their own plans or at least understand that there is no such proper One way of enjoying the game. Far too many experienced players have failed in the most epic fashion to appreciate this, but what happened to Innovation?

I know there are plenty of people out there who enjoy the game in their own personal way. I understand that a great number of us will not allow opinions of others to control our decisions. But then what about the rest of the population? It's not that difficult to provide or undertake the simpler, more subtle notion of guidelines opposed to spewing out strict instructions. But in every channel (including trade) I see people imposing or perhaps even force feeding these strict instructions to newbies and newbies who oblige blindly. I believe that people need to start explaining or asking "why?" and not only focus so ignorantly on "what" and "how."


On a side note, the moment you egotistic elitist minded people throw out nonsense such as “you must have x number of blah to <insert action>” Without properly evaluating, respecting or at the very least acknowledging the opposing arguments and preferably having taken into consideration the relevant alternatives, you invalidate your judgment entirely.




*edit* I'm trying to Initiate a meaningful discussion in this thread to a topic that I find fascinating and am curious by what directions it may take. I know what my own opinions are (that will be shared), however, I am only really interested in your opinions. And by no means am I trying to get anyone to agree with me.

[Astraghal]

The reason that people want a WF to tank Suulomades is because in the majority of situations, a fleshy tank wont be built, geared, skilled or experienced enough to reliably get their own curses, maintain aggro and have enough HP to survive any hitches.

It also seems to be prohibitively difficult, due to human nature, to assign another party memeber to remove the curses on any potential tank, which would allow almost any un-gimped melee with enough threat to fill the tank role.

[Galad1]

Recently I was in a raid group in, or on its way to, HoX. Where two experienced players suggested a different, and easier approach to the quest. Amongst other deviations from the "normal" run on HoX, this resulted in the fighter (one of the two) picking up the needed stones and charming the puppies.
It made me think if the standart way of doing many quests in DDO which I have been introduced to by more experienced, or should I say players who have playing for longer than myself, doesn't need a critical revision.
Anyway I was good to get some "xp" myself from the HoX-run.

[Dracey]

The reason that people want a WF to tank Suulomades is because in the majority of situations, a fleshy tank wont be built, geared, skilled or experienced enough to reliably get their own curses, maintain aggro and have enough HP to survive any hitches.

It also seems to be prohibitively difficult, due to human nature, to assign another party memeber to remove the curses on any potential tank, which would allow almost an un-gimped melee with enough threat to fill the tank role.

Before I respond, I want to repeat that this is NOT a thread on VoD.

The recent Sarlona VoD thread can be found here.

As I've stated, a proper intent for decisions such as WF Sully Tank would be about convenience and efficiency rather than necessity.

The message that I want to get across is that people need to understand that there is no one single approach, and often times newbies never get a chance to even learn why quests/raids run the way they do.

Not just limited to the WF Sully Tank case - I'm pointing out that not enough people properly explain Why things run the way they do when teaching a newcomer... and that not enough newcomers will openly ask "why?"

And what makes this topic interesting is that there is no right or wrong. Views will differ with each person's perspective.
Example: Newbies that are too intimidated to admit their inexperience in fear of utter rejection.

[Munesai]

By about six months to one year of playing it is a good idea to forget all of the static builds and strategies you have learned.
If you go into the game deciding to do your own thing your own way, even better.
The world only moves forward by the light of unbound genius.
Absolutely everything and anything is possible and works well if done well.
Looking for the easy and proven way to succeed quickly leads to boredom and dullness.
Cut your own path, and leave a trail.

[phum]

By about six months to one year of playing it is a good idea to forget all of the static builds and strategies you have learned.
If you go into the game deciding to do your own thing your own way, even better.
The world only moves forward by the light of unbound genius.
Absolutely everything and anything is possible and works well if done well.
Looking for the easy and proven way to succeed quickly leads to boredom and dullness.
Cut your own path, and leave a trail.

Very well said. Even if (or especially if) the player isn't an adult, he should be encouraged to find his own path, if he likes the game. For adults, if they are interested, giving reasons and references is in my opinion always a better way than to simply dictate. Sadly but maybe understandably, patience often seems to be in short supply. Sometimes a discussion might prove yourself to be at wrong and that the very person you intend to educate knows very well what he or she is doing.

[Dracey]

Recently I was in a raid group in, or on its way to, HoX. Where two experienced players suggested a different, and easier approach to the quest. Amongst other deviations from the "normal" run on HoX, this resulted in the fighter (one of the two) picking up the needed stones and charming the puppies.
It made me think if the standart way of doing many quests in DDO which I have been introduced to by more experienced, or should I say players who have playing for longer than myself, doesn't need a critical revision.
Anyway I was good to get some "xp" myself from the HoX-run.

I don't believe any critical revisions in quests are necessary or relevant. But being introduced to a quest/raid by a standard method is definitely an excellent starting point in learning. Unfortunately, the learning process gets cut short from lack of provided information, leadership, organization, (grudgingly) research and sometimes ultimately the lack of interest.

Example for lack of interest: Newbie is inexperienced therefore leader allows newbie to pike (let's just say the ladder in Titan Raid or Asteroid room in Abbot, Reaver's Fate, etc). Well, if I can just pike these raids, why should I ever learn them to begin with? It'd be far easier for me to hit my 20 completions this way.

What I was getting at with the HoX example is the whole notion of people needing to ask and answer simply Why a Bard?
- Because it is convenient and efficient?
- Because not only might that Bard be self efficient, but after charming the dogs he will provide on the spot buffs?
- And if able, the bard may remain in the center and continue support whether it's with mana or scrolls?

Now I'm merely trying to be precise, I don't actually expect anyone to explain in full details. But for the purpose of accuracy perhaps people need to start answering more along the liens of: "Oh, we don't actually Need a bard, we just Want one because they just make the quest easier." and NOT scream "WE CAN NOT DO THIS WITHOUT A BARD!"

Here's another HoX scenario I'll throw: Take the standard method tanking, typically you want an intimidate tank. Alternatively, groups often settle with holding aggro through "Solid Fog" Clickies from any random melee (we like to call them "chew toys"). Generally speaking, people assume that this chew toy Must be a Melee Class (Because hey, that's how they experienced HoX their first time I guess) and by Melee class they a-s-s-ume Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian. Well what's wrong with Rogues, Monks and Rangers who have been known infamously for potential in AC or even heal amp? What's wrong with a Radiant Servant that can heal entirely from the aura alone. What's wrong with a Wizard or Sorcerer who can cast the real spell at a reliably fast rate? List goes on. But it all sums up to this: What is wrong with variances? Absolutely nothing, but there will Always be people in opposition or even complete disbelief.

Where it really gets bad is when you eventually find yourself in a group with 11 experienced HoX Pikers, many of whom may have ran 20 runs and still have No clue. Fun times. I mean whatcha gonna do? Drop group? =)

[Dracey]

By about six months to one year of playing it is a good idea to forget all of the static builds and strategies you have learned.
If you go into the game deciding to do your own thing your own way, even better.
The world only moves forward by the light of unbound genius.
Absolutely everything and anything is possible and works well if done well.
Looking for the easy and proven way to succeed quickly leads to boredom and dullness.
Cut your own path, and leave a trail.

Best of all, even applied in reality does this make great sense.

[Quikster]

I don't believe any critical revisions in quests are necessary or relevant. But being introduced to a quest/raid by a standard method is definitely an excellent starting point in learning. Unfortunately, the learning process gets cut short from lack of provided information, leadership, organization, (grudgingly) research and sometimes ultimately the lack of interest.

Example for lack of interest: Newbie is inexperienced therefore leader allows newbie to pike (let's just say the ladder in Titan Raid or Asteroid room in Abbot, Reaver's Fate, etc). Well, if I can just pike these raids, why should I ever learn them to begin with? It'd be far easier for me to hit my 20 completions this way.

What I was getting at with the HoX example is the whole notion of people needing to ask and answer simply Why a Bard?
- Because it is convenient and efficient?
- Because not only might that Bard be self efficient, but after charming the dogs he will provide on the spot buffs?
- And if able, the bard may remain in the center and continue support whether it's with mana or scrolls?

Now I'm merely trying to be precise, I don't actually expect anyone to explain in full details. But for the purpose of accuracy perhaps people need to start answering more along the liens of: "Oh, we don't actually Need a bard, we just Want one because they just make the quest easier." and NOT scream "WE CAN NOT DO THIS WITHOUT A BARD!"

Here's another HoX scenario I'll throw: Take the standard method tanking, typically you want an intimidate tank. Alternatively, groups often settle with holding aggro through "Solid Fog" Clickies from any random melee (we like to call them "chew toys"). Generally speaking, people assume that this chew toy Must be a Melee Class (Because hey, that's how they experienced HoX their first time I guess) and by Melee class they a-s-s-ume Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian. Well what's wrong with Rogues, Monks and Rangers who have been known infamously for potential in AC or even heal amp? What's wrong with a Radiant Servant that can heal entirely from the aura alone. What's wrong with a Wizard or Sorcerer who can cast the real spell at a reliably fast rate? List goes on. But it all sums up to this: What is wrong with variances? Absolutely nothing, but there will Always be people in opposition or even complete disbelief.

Where it really gets bad is when you eventually find yourself in a group with 11 experienced HoX Pikers, many of whom may have ran 20 runs and still have No clue. Fun times. I mean whatcha gonna do? Drop group? =)

Yes people get used to running things one or two ways and thing that is the only way it can be done. It used to be we needed at least 1 arcane for the crystal in shroud part 2 (still is to some extent). Dont forget 1 bard for ev6, evasion dps and a wiz for ETK, and 1 capstone cleric or dark monk for abbot.

I think the issue you bring up exasperates the problem of people not knowing the mechanics of the game. There are so many ways to skin a cat. Often times the answer you will get is, "I want a smooth completion so Im choosing the best method" But what it comes down to is leaders are trying to ram the "best method" into every scenario.

For tanking duty, race is only 1 factor. When this method was developed hp totals were a lot less then they are now. There were no guild curse pots so being raged meant someone else managing your curse. SP totals were less then they are now as well. AC thresholds were much harder to hit. The tactic was solid if you didnt have an ac tank, or someone you could trust to manage curses, as well as a couple arcanes loaded with scrolls to heal. Now a bunch of these issues have gone by the wayside and its often likely a wfd isnt the best option in the 12 man group to tank, though it might be. One needs to evaluate the factors involved and make a decision based on those factors, not on a set, "raid must be done XYZ way."

For hound, there are some classes better then others to tank. I usually keep casters out of that role simply because they will need a globe to be able to cast after getting bees. Random people putting globes up can cause issues, and I find it easier to take some of the variables that Ive seen cause failure out of the equation.

That said, ive seen clericless hounds, battle bards heal part 4 of shroud, clerics/monks/rogs/rangers/caster tank in all raids, bardless ev6's, 3 man evaisionless ETK elite, etc etc.

The more skill/gear/experience people have the less these ideal scenarios need to be meet (Ideal not necessarily meaning wfd tank for sully, more like a legit tank for sully).

When we were doing speed runs of these raids I really got to examine the raid and break down the tactics/mechanics. Mind you I had already lead hundreds of pugs through all these raids by then. But learning little things like which portals in hound spawn which mindflayers in what order, or what order the portals in shroud part 1 spawn, or that splitting the portal party in part 1 of shroud into 2 or 3 groups is faster than everyone staying together etc. It was a eye opener at the time, though that was a while ago and I cant say its done much anymore.

When we first started pulling everything to the south in shroud 2 there was a big lashback from others on the server. People said you couldnt do it that way. You must take the outsider and elemental in separate areas. When people saw it successful and faster, they adopted it, but for a long time very few knew how fast these mobs ran back to the center. All they knew was fire and cat were fast. They didnt, and still dont to some extent, know that you can kill orthon before the others even get there so long as you pull him to the west a bit, and still have time to get the others down.


As to why it isnt taught more. Ill I can say for myself is Ive had bad reception to giving everyone the breakdown why we do certain things. So now we just do it, and if someone asks, I explain

Cheers, nice topic!

[vyvy3369]

Innovation is great if you have a group that's willing to give it a shot, but that is not the norm for PUGs, where most people just join to get a completion however they can manage it. The primary reason for that is because when you change things up, you tend to fail more often at first than using the normal methods.

As each new raid comes out, people spend a lot of effort finding these methods, and whichever ones end up working best become the norm for a reason. Sure, once everyone is used to a new way of doing things, it's possibly even easier than the normal methods, but getting there usually ends in at least a couple of failed (or resource intensive) runs.

It's actually kind of amusing how the norms change periodically too - pretty much every raid has gone through several revisions of the "normal" strategy. For example, eDQ used to be pretty much exclusively ranged, and now most PUGs just melee. Trying to convince groups that intimidate actually worked in HoX was like pulling teeth at first, and now I see a ton of groups waiting exclusively for someone that can intimidate. Shroud part 2 for my first ~80 runs used to be this crazy 3-prong attack strategy, with the elemental NE, devil NW, and the other two blocked behind a wall in the SE, and I can't even remember the last time anyone attempted that. The WF tank in VoD thing though has always been a pet peeve of mine.

So anyways, for that reason we usually make sure to have all of the primary roles filled before throwing up an LFM. That way if we do feel like doing something crazy and we lose a few PUGs after a wipe, we still have all of the required people. But asking a truly random PUG to not only listen to but also understand and be able to execute a new plan is going to lead to failure a lot of the time, and most PUGs just don't want that.

Yeah, it'd be great if we all spent 20 minutes explaining the details of the strategy every raid, but I certainly don't want to do that, and usually when I do try and answer questions about the way things actually work someone spouts incorrect "facts" that they swear are true, and then it just comes down to who yells loudest for who the PUGs believe.

[erikst]

why talk about this, when the real problem is the players who reject the ones with different ideas?

[Towrn]

why talk about this, when the real problem is the players who reject the ones with different ideas?

Perhaps because in game people sometimes don't want to listen to these type of ideas, here people might stumble upon something and take the time to read it.

New ideas are always a good thing. Just because we have the norm doesn't mean we haven't found something better.

I continuously get called out on many of my builds, because I like to stay as far away from the norm as possible, but I can tell you this, as far out there as most of my builds are, they work and can fill multiple roles. The people that can't seem to understand builds like mine and many others who like to build characters like I do are most likely the same people who would balk at a different approach to a quest.

Edit: +1 to the OP for a thread that doesn't make me want to puke.

[Windex69]

One of the (if the only one maybe) most fun Hound of Xoriat runs I had the pleasure of taking part in was where my drow wizard was the "Tank".... All of about 300 HP at the time and solid fog to keep their aggro... A couple people (one of which was one of our 2 healers) got angry at the very idea of even attempting it that way and dropped so we pushed ahead with 8 or 9 people.

So, with one healer, and a gimp drow wizard tank and 6 others we go in and complete it in 4 or 5 minutes as usual.

Innovation in its' very nature is the true heart of DnD...

DDO isn't anywhere near the true heart of DnD.

Used to be, they tried really hard to get there, but have steered WAY off course as of the last year or two.

DDO tries.
I am not taking anything away from the hard work of all the people at Turbine etc. that have worked on the game by any means.

I wonder how the forum mods will edit this post now.... This was no way near what I had originally posted, and the original post was positive and supportive of both DDO and LotRO.... Imagine that.

[Dracey]

@Quikster

Heh, yeah there are hundreds of things I've left off, just far too many to list, and just threw in the randomness that came at the top of my head that the majority of people who've ran raids could understand.

And the topic I've brought up is not limited to just questing and raiding. Here's another one that we see All the time with newbies.
- Pure Ranged Rangers: this topic goes on so far that I'm not even going to expand on this in knowing that I'll only end up digressing in the spur of rants.

You're right about speed runs actually giving a better break down. I find this almost ironic and very much amusingly true. Seriously, Lol!

You've brought up another interesting point, the lack of innovation is an ongoing issue. And having a fairly broad and vague topic on human nature in my original post, this notion applies also in the real world. For the purposes of this thread we'll continue to focus on Dungeons&Dragons Online.
I just want to point out that this is really an universal issue throughout human history, but again we won't go into much detail with the real world.

What I don't understand is the absolute hypocrisy that occurs over and over... and over... and over and over … and … over ... ... again. We get certain people that oppose the slightest variance and the moment that they've experienced a better method they dismiss the old method entirely. These same people will again oppose the slightest variance in defense of the current new method of approach known to them. But wasn't it openness to variation that took them through the transition phase? *double you tea eff question mark question mark*

I don't expect break downs to be given, ever, unless asked. And people need to ask. If the leader won't answer, there are 4 or 10 (party or raid) other individuals that may kindly reply. When it does come time for me to teach someone, I like to be thorough yet timely and then perhaps one day in the future I may be lazy and pike the groups that they have formed :P

I've enjoyed your response, cheers to you too!

[AMDarkwolf]

"I'll be tanking and i wa....."

"Whats your AC?"

"Er.. Idk what that matters, but atm, 45... anyways... i want the healers to foll..."

"Are you sure you don't want me to tank? I have 123192873619283612 ac"

".. um.. no thanks, just want u running right with the crew, you can help most there... And I want the wiz to pick up the first two st.."

"*** a rog/wiz/clr/bard is gonna tank? FAWK This noob group" *Drops group*


Yup.. been there I meet them often(we've discussed this before i think kuni hehe)

[Raolin_Darksbane]

why talk about this, when the real problem is the players who reject the ones with different ideas?

***SPOILER: INCOMING TL;DR***

It's not always as cut and dry as your statement makes it seem. For example, a pug suggests we try X strategy having never done the quest and I reply with no since i've tried that method and several others and they either don't work or take WAY too many resources to achieve the goal - I'm not rejecting the guy based on tunnelvision - im rejecting him/it(the idea) based on experience of trial and error.

I agree with alot of what's been said so far and this is definitely one of the more interesting posts i've browsed lately. I think it's been mentioned but sometimes people only know one way to do something and thus, want to run it that way when they're leading. Some people are simply ignorant (welcome to the real world) and can't fathom there being a different way, possibly even more efficient, than the way they do it. - Some people through experience happen to know one if not THE most efficient way to do certain things and for sake of ease, want to do it that way.

Personally, in Harpers, I've been in several guild Sully runs where our tank was a fleshy. A couple of our guys like Omber and Mudfud, have excellent fleshy tanks that can take Sully on elite with no problems. I always laugh when i see the LFM's up for "Sully - WF Tank needed!" . I think part of it is also laziness on the part of the leader - "I've done this 1000 times and don't want to take the extra 20-30 minutes to try something different." Especially with part of DDO's end game being reroll as a TR and grind out the same **** over and over until you achieve completionist - Well, some people are in a hurry to get the gear, get the xp, and gtfo.

I would love it if the devs magically changed all the laws of DDO as we know them in secret one night and we all woke up to everything being COMPLETELY different. Change the skills, change the spells, change the AI, change the quest layouts - change EVERYTHING - After all the screaming and crying is done, I think it would do wonders as everyone would get to rediscover the game all over again and re-learn what works and what doesnt. It probably won't ever happen but hey, i can dream

[k1ngp1n]

There are plenty of people out there trying to do things differently, and are adapting their strategies to fit the group (rather than the more common other-way-around method).

These players don't pug much because they're sick of newbies whining about things being done differently (or just not stepping up to the plate). Overall I think a lot of it is the loss of name recognition from the swarms of new players: they have no idea who the 'pro' guilds are (and therefore who to learn from). The other one is ego: everyone wants to feel 'leet' despite that fact that very very few are. They don't want to try another strategy and risk failure (and therefore demonstrate that they aren't as good as they thought). It's easier to play conservative.

[Kathul]

I usually see posts with "Need Chewtoy" and usually noone cares who or what that is, just as long as the best person for the role will do it. Like I always say(raid or no) any party with a good healer will survive and complete.

[k1ngp1n]

I usually see posts with "Need Chewtoy" and usually noone cares who or what that is, just as long as the best person for the role will do it. Like I always say(raid or no) any party can survive and complete.

Fixed. Hjealzor not needed.

[Dracey]

@ vyvy3369

Willingness is definitely important to consider in this topic.

It's understandable how people are less inclined to try a different approach. But there's still also that giant brick wall over the smaller things, petty matters such as (For example) who or what is necessary and able to tank. People have this nasty habit of assumptions over what is necessary in tanking once they've gotten comfortable with their experiences and disregarding the experiences of others.

Whether it's reliant on Intimidate or Hate Generation and whether it's about AC, Damage Reductions, Immunities, Healing Amplifications, Any combination of the mentioned and whatever I may have left out... In truth, any class can tank if the player designed it with that intent.

Examples of unique specialty builds that I've witnessed or Experienced to be perfectly capable and truly effective at tanking:
14 Cleric / 6 Fighter (And other Intimidate Radiant Servant variations)
20 Wizard (And other Intimidate Pale Master variations)
12 Sorceror / 6 Paladin / 2 Monk (And other Battle Arcane variations)
13 Rogue / 7 Monk (And other Acrobat variations)
18 Ranger / Monk / Rogue (And other Exploiter Ranger variations)
Etc, Etc, etc

Having Any One of these unique builds perform the tanking role does Not change the standard game plans in any way. But yes, most people are still unwilling to give these less common tanks a chance. I won't blame them but I also think it's unfortunate.

I'm a bit slow about my responses, but yeah I don't expect to Ever hear detailed explanations unless asked. Usually Leaders including myself won't even explain a thing and just assign roles and Then ask for any questions and concerns and that is perfectly fine. And that there is also the perfect chance for a newbie to ask, and I know that unfortunately many times they won't. I also don't see anything wrong if a leader were to boot a player for inexperience as long as they will do so in an honest, non-threatening manner, something like “I'm sorry but I don't have the time to explain things to you.”

And hells yeah, I see that stubborn routine of spewed misleading “facts” all the time ;( My comment on that is basically that little side note on the bottom of my original post.

Off note, that WF Tank thing is a pet peeve of mine too. Most if not All of us didn't build our spell casters to become a Reconstruct slave to a spongy barbaric Warforged.