Why the extra SP cost for Evocation Archmage?

[Killdaelf]

That's correct.

As of now, there have been 5-6 wizards Am panic threads.. so you know where the community stands, it would be nice to know why the devs team thinks the prc is so powerfull it will need a nerf.
Or i thinks everyone will sleep better if you could confirm the Am is being reworked and evoker sla is just the first step, that would be very understandable.

[KillEveryone]

I'd rather give up Echos of Power.

It isn't hard to learn how to conserve SP. Even beginning as a caster it isn't hard to learn how to manage things.

Echos is just a crutch for those that don't learn to not blow all their SP on the first mob.

It will continue to allow bad play and I don't think those rolling a caster will learn real SP conservation and will just blow all their SP and rely heavily on Echos.

[Qezuzu]

That's correct.

Just make Echoes of Power no longer apply after lvl15 please. Keep SLA's as they are.

EoP is only for helping new players access caster classes, right? Then make it no longer work after a certain level. If they haven't gotten down the concept of SP management by that time...

Nerfing what was already a low-damage build to fit in this new feature that will only help a small portion of players... and not even HIGH level players.

[kinar]

Balancing for Echoes of Power would be my guess. Scorching ray went up from 4 sp (iirc) to 8 sp as well. They increased arcane bolt from 1 SP to 2 SP, and blast from 5 SP to 6 SP as well, because you can go a long ways with those damage spells just running on Echoes of Power.

When I tried last week, as long as I was careful to not get overwhelmed, Echoes of Power allowed me to cycle between 1 SP arcane bolt, 4 SP scorching ray, and 4 SP arcane blast. At 4 SP regen every 6 seconds, and a 15 SP cap, it was mildly overpowered, so long as you could live with a pew-pew playstyle. Magic missile at 1 SP was equivalent to arcane bolt.

It sucks, but 2 sp isn't bad. I'd happily pay 2 sp for AM hypno that isn't nerfed to near-uselessness.

That's correct.

This is probably the worst possible fix for this possible.

You are nerfing a character to force them into using an ability that you are trying to make balanced...

FFS, just make the echos of power have either a different cooldown for AM, a different sp boost for AM, or both. Hell, I would prefer you you disable Echos of Power for AM entirely as opposed to this change.

[yodino]

Increasing the spell costs of the AM's SLA - which will seriously in turn affect their performance whether they've got a full sp bar or not - in order to balance it out with a feat that only kicks in when you've got 0 sp left doesn't make sense imho. In fact, I have to question the sanity of whoever thought of this solution.

[HallowedOne]

Why? It was so overpowered on end game that it needed a nerf, that's why!

You can't have fun with a mage build that is doing something different than firewalling everything... it's an exploit

[krogyy]

That's correct.

if that was the issue, i understand increasing the SP costs not the increased cooldowns.

besides, an alternative fix would be to let echoes to decrease the sp per tick at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 to 3, 2, 1, 0 respectively. or something similar.

the change, especially in view of the motivation, is extremely disappointing

[Maegin]

Balancing for Echoes of Power would be my guess.

that's Correct.

so Your Balancing It For A New System Meant As An 'aid To New Players' That Relies Upon People Running With Basically Zero Sp?

[Sarezar]

Echoes of Power is an insignificant bonus because:

- It only adds a tiny bit more dps in boss fights for certain characters (not all casters will benefit from this).
- By the time you are that close to 0 SP it means that either:
a) you are near a shrine, therefore you don't need the 12 sp
b) something's gone terribly wrong, therefore you won't be able to reach the next shrine just by regening
those 12 sp
c) it's a boss fight and you may be able to do some minor extra damage (generally force spells for
Archmages will work in most cases, but other cheap fire/acid/cold spells may not work on many bosses, magic missile may
not be memorised/learned by some casters, PMs won't care as they'll use their HP spells.
- It is mainly a bonus for the first 5-6 levels in the game.
- It is mainly going to help healers that don't already have better ways of cheap healing to reach the next shrine.

Therefore, Echoes of Power should not be used as a reason to nerf something.

PS. I don't really care about the SP increases or decreases, I just wanted to state why I think EoP is close to useless in its current form

[Skyeson]

Balancing for Echoes of Power would be my guess.

That's correct.

While this makes sense, I'd rather do without the echoes of power and have the lower sp costs. Something that was meant to make life easier for arcanes, "echoes of power", ends up nerfing them from balancing issues ...

[Relenthe]

And this? This reads like "I'm on it! Nerfing the new thing as we speak. Also, nerfing the old thing too, for balance.", which to this day I thought was a joke.

Haha too true! I'd +1 you but apparently my rep button is broken

Although in this case we are nerfing the new thing (which is useless anyways past lvl 5) by nerfing the old thing (which we use all the time)

[quityourjobs]

I had no idea Evocation would be in such dire need of nerfs....

What's next, Illusion?

[Requiro]

I had no idea Evocation would be in such dire need of nerfs....

What's next, Illusion?

No. Shortsword and Deepwood Sniper PrE - they are too powerful

[fyrst.grok]

Increasing the spell costs of the AM's SLA - which will seriously in turn affect their performance whether they've got a full sp bar or not - in order to balance it out with a feat that only kicks in when you've got 0 sp left doesn't make sense imho. In fact, I have to question the sanity of whoever thought of this solution.

This..

I mean.. ***.. the AM was weak and a niche pre even before this..
I have (soon had) an evoker/enchanter build.. Even with the wizard pastlife, maxed force and every cheap SLA I could take he's not much of a dps.. But at least he could compete with the PM's when it came to cheap damage output.

The buff to pm's, the nerf to hypno.. Those was a knee to the groin.. This.. Probably going to tr into sorc or if the nerf-for-no-reason-fest continues - look for another game

[Aeolwind]

This..

I mean.. ***.. the AM was weak and a niche pre even before this..
I have (soon had) an evoker/enchanter build.. Even with the wizard pastlife, maxed force and every cheap SLA I could take he's not much of a dps.. But at least he could compete with the PM's when it came to cheap damage output.

The buff to pm's, the nerf to hypno.. Those was a knee to the groin.. This.. Probably going to tr into sorc or if the nerf-for-no-reason-fest continues - look for another game

Sorc's will be next as soon as someone realizes the amount of actual damage they can put out. So, TR and level fast.

[fyrst.grok]

Sorc's will be next as soon as someone realizes the amount of actual damage they can put out. So, TR and level fast.

True.. Might as well go Paladin and hope they buff them in stead

[Tirisha]

While this makes sense, I'd rather do without the echoes of power and have the lower sp costs. Something that was meant to make life easier for arcanes, "echoes of power", ends up nerfing them from balancing issues ...

I think it more has too do with the effect Echoes of power will have on closing the gap between Sorcerer and Wizard in terms of SP. If SP isn't as valuable as it is now. One of the Sorcerers Significant advantages will be lessened at the same time that a host of new viable spells are introduced making it unbearable selecting spells at many spell lvs (even on a wiz).

Their purpose is to ensure that Sorcerers can generate more DPS even when out or low on SP than a Wizard. And because of the CC archmage abilities Wizards could certainly say that about CC.

[IronClan]

True.. Might as well go Paladin and hope they buff them in stead

Just go melee DPS, and Khopesh you'll be safe.

Which not coincidentally seems to be what the designers want everyone to play...

[VorpalLaugh]

Maybe the devs figured out some sort of uber evocation AM build that completely overpowers all other builds

[Plutocracy]

Their purpose is to ensure that Sorcerers can generate more DPS even when out or low on SP than a Wizard. And because of the CC archmage abilities Wizards could certainly say that about CC.

If casters run around using echoes of power after quickly burning through all their mana, any time after level 6, they are doing it wrong.

I expect echoes of power to be in effect >5% of the time. The slightly more DPS a wiz would do in this tiny rarity of situations should be considered negligible in the overall picture.

To actually nerf an already subpar option (general consensus is Sorc and PM> Evo archmage BEFORE the nerf and Savant) is truly strange. I was willing to play this suboptimal build for coolness and flavor, but was borderline. Nerf pushed me on to not bother, and build a savant instead.

Most would gladly abandon echoes of power rather than take this nerf.