Improve Mobility

[AcesWylde]

Mobility as it stands in DDO pretty much seems a wasted feat slot, only taken to qualify for other feats.

in DDO: Adds a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class while tumbling.

in D&D: Adds a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when moving within a threatened area

suggestion: Adds a +2 dodge bonus vs melee attacks while moving, and additional +2 while tumbling



note: I specified against melee attacks because ranged attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity (which don't exist in DDO anyway, so it's a moot point, but I thought it was closer to the spirir of the original mobility feat than what we have now)

[Vanquishedfo]

It needs alot more then you suggest. All you need to do is looka round the forums to see the flames folks get for even suggesting to use mobility as more then a pre req for certain other things.

I also feel the tumble skill is the real area. Few invest heavily in the skill, to the point of the superior animations. Yet with little real gain over what 1 rank in tumble gives.

I think for every 5 actual ranks in tumble you should get a +1 dodge bonus to AC all the time, which doubles during tumbling, and triples if you have the mobility feat. By end game this could actually amount to enough AC to be seen as meaningful enough to compensate for the fact when tumbling that is all your doing.

[gingie]

Pretty good idea IMO. Not overpowering, just making something somewhat decent to take. +1

[WirelessJoe]

Yet with little real gain over what 1 rank in tumble gives.

I take no damage while falling from the Stormreaver's ceiling (and other high places). I don't have to hit the corners to save damage or take damage elsewhere when I forget my FF item. Not a big deal, but...well, not a big deal.

[AcesWylde]

It needs alot more then you suggest.

much more and it falls on the other side of over powered

I also feel the tumble skill is the real area.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm

Check

You can land softly when you fall or tumble past opponents.

Special

If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC.

Synergy

If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you get a +2 bonus on Balance and Jump checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Jump, you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.


My thoughts: I think getting a +1 every 5 ranks is way overboard. I can see the additional +1 when fighting defensively, but if you go beyond that there's no reason for combat expertise. In PnP tumbling allows to to escape attacks of opportunity, in that respect, I think maybe a +1 dodge bonus vs melee attacks while tumbling for every 10 total points in tumble might not be too over powered, but what would really be cool, is if you could gain a +1 reflex bonus while tumbling also, LOL

of course, recoding tumble sounds a lot more time and resource intensive for our hard working devs vs a simple change in mobility

[Vanquishedfo]

if its going to get a change it needs to be meaningful. you simply need to ask around on the current view of AC and how high it has to be to be meaningful by say lvls 14+ to understand a few points are just not going to stop the LOLAC comments.

I suggest through tumble because then it goes to the serious rogue and monk tumblers who typically persue the High AC goal and are frequently condemned by other players and brutally punished in game as most agree by the time your in Gh you better be sporting well over a 55 AC to make even trying for it mean something.

Actually in NWN they gave tumble a similar bonus which is why I suggested it. as for the act of tumbling being hard to code, they already give mobility when u tumble, increasing the effect during it to make the fact you are not swinging a sword or healing or casting etc, a fair trade off. Keep in Mind in PnP you could fight while tumbling, hence the whole basis for the thief-acrobat fighting style.

even if you had a magical cant touch this effect during a tumble it wouldnt break the game as u cant do much to impact the game while tumbling. Sure u can kite. they are nerfing that as is in U9 word is, seeing how they are fixing firewall and spells, that combat in general is going to evolve in DDO and I myself want to see beinga mobile acrobatic type be more then just flash. I want it to have substance enough to keep me alive when I start backflipping away from the giants club.

Id also like to see it give a bonus to reflex saves while tumbling to make doing a haste speed through traps not be more optimal then a agile rogue tumbling through.

[darthacidwit]

maybe a +1 dodge bonus vs melee attacks while tumbling for every 10 total points in tumble might not be too over powered, but what would really be cool, is if you could gain a +1 reflex bonus while tumbling also

this...mobility and tumble are moot anyhoo, why not tweak it to actually be useful? dodging rays with side leaps? my monk has high reflexes, i do not and come u9, rays are even faster so that's history too...

but leaping across a blade trap for increased refl save? tumble around giants legs for increased AC?

sounds reasonable

[AcesWylde]

a few points are just not going to stop the LOLAC comments.

I made the suggestion with game balance in mind, not in response to anyone's condemnation, LOL, sounds like some people have gotten a little touchy on the subject. My apologies, my intention wasn't to reopen old wounds by any means.

Keep in Mind in PnP you could fight while tumbling

I'm only familiar with the 3rd edition rules, where you could tumble through a threatened square before or after an attack to avoid an attack of opportunity.

[Aesop]

Yeah this was an idea that came up back in '06 and '07... maybe even during Beta but I'm a little foggy on that.

Its a good one though

I would like to see something like this added in.

I'd also like Spring Attack to do more than be a requirement for Tempest

One of the issues I've heard spoken of is with Glancing Blows not working while moving.

Instead I'd say just make Glancing Blows have a % chance to proc and have Movement reduce the Proc Rate could do the same thing with TWF. Spring Attack could reduce or remove that penalty.


example


Lets say Two Handed Weapons had a base chance of proc'ing a Glancing Blow of 20% and the THF line increased that by 10% each. Making the total 50% of the swings have a Glancing Blow.

Additionally the Attack Progression also factors into the Chance. at the same rate as the bonus to attack only in %. (forgive me its been a while) so the bonuses on the 4 attacks are 0 0 5 10? I think... can't remember. but those would grant an additional bonus uping the total to 60% on the final swing of a series.

Have movement remove the initial 20%. This would also negate the bonus from progressive attacks lowering the totals to 30% with the full THF line. Spring Attack could negate the 20% penalty bringing the bonus total back up to 50% of attacks applying a Glancing Blow.

Same thing for TWF moving could cause the initial 20% to be negated and Spring Attack would recover it.



I'd also like to see Cleave, Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack to have a benefit.

Perhaps Cleave could have an additional passive (or maybe toggled) benefit that would give a flat 5% chance to attack a secondary target within the 180degree arc during a normal attack sequence and great cleave could improve that to 10%. Whirl Wind attack could do the same and could stack to an additional 10%.


I'd also like to see Ranged Ki Weapons actually generate Ki and be able to use Ki strikes, even if they cost twice as much it would still be nice. Then I could see a nifty use for the Zen Archery Feat. Shuriken should also have a base chance (say 25%) to toss an additional Star and the new Shuriken Mastery (or Expertise or whatever its called) could add a characters Dex Stat as a bonus to that.


Aesop

[AcesWylde]

I'd also like Spring Attack to do more than be a requirement for Tempest

it negates the -4 to attack while moving, every other toon I run except my tempest, I noticeably miss more while moving vs standing there and duking it out. It might not sound like much, but it does cause to to change play styles.

One of the issues I've heard spoken of is with Glancing Blows not working while moving.

wasn't that changed as it is to workaround an exploit?

I'd also like to see Cleave, Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack to have a benefit.

???

Um, while I agree that the attack animation for whirlwind is to slow to be effective considering you're only striking with your primary weapon, cleave and great cleave work great back to back to clear out the trash, with only a slight break in your attack chain

[Aesop]

it negates the -4 to attack while moving, every other toon I run except my tempest, I noticeably miss more while moving vs standing there and duking it out. It might not sound like much, but it does cause to to change play styles.


Not really. I've never noticed missing too often at the higher levels and the negation of -4 to hit isn't a significant enough benefit for a 3 feat chain especially with the minor benefits of the lower feats. Even if Mobility was improved the benefit of SA is far too minimal for what it is.



wasn't that changed as it is to workaround an exploit?


That is debated endlessly and it would be far better to remove the "exploit' than to make active combat become stationary.


???

Um, while I agree that the attack animation for whirlwind is to slow to be effective considering you're only striking with your primary weapon, cleave and great cleave work great back to back to clear out the trash, with only a slight break in your attack chain

Actually the numbers were run on this a couple years ago. The decrease in DPS is quite significant apparently which is why most people who care about such things do not take Cleave or Great Cleave as a rule.

Feats are special things and should be more useful as a rule

Just the way I look at it

Aesop

[Quarterling]

I like what AcesWylde said about every 10 points of tumble you currently have (from all sources), you get a +1 bonus to AC. This way, there will be an incentive to use tumble items/buffs. Though I would prefer the +1 AC bonus/10 Tumble to be a permanent AC bonus on your character, and doubled when tumbling and tripled if you have mobility (again, similar to what Aces said).

It gives Thief Acrobats another way to get decent AC without having to multiclass as a monk, and can start to make AC viable at end-game without horribly gimping your character's dps for other builds as well (e.g. rangers).

[donfilibuster]

in DDO: Adds a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class while tumbling.

in D&D: Adds a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when moving within a threatened area

I'll go ahead and say it should be the full +4 dodge bonus when moving, from enemy melee, without need of tumble.

In both DDO and D&D the tumble skill is used to avoid being in a threat area, this is fine as it is now.
Mobility, however, was to give you defense while not avoiding being in a threat area, this is an entirely different purpose.

The assumption is that because there's no threat in DDO you don't need the mobility to walk into the fray.
But the assumption that you'll be using tumble to move in battle is just wrong.

This looks like a blatant attempt to justify having the tumble skill while not having threat and AoO.
Such as that toons with only 1 rank can get the AC buff by hopping.
(see http://ddowiki.com/page/Tumble_%28skill%29)
Hence making the tumble skill attractive at the cost of devaluing the mobility feat.

This is moot as 1 rank in tumble is pointless and you can always opt to not do defense moves and rely on AC to avoid hits moving in battle.
Defense moves are things you can do, like shield block and tumble, but those are active abilities, whereas mobility was a passive ability.

This game needs more AC options from the available in D&D, taking one away is not helping.
The +4 buff when moving is not overpowered for a feat slot.

[Emili]

I like that suggestion... are a lot of feats could use improvement. They are all building blocks of the game DDO is based on but for some reason DDO decided enhancements were their means.

Oh I do love a good tumble too.

[AcesWylde]

The +4 buff when moving is not overpowered for a feat slot.

Maybe it's my PnP background, but it seems to be so to me, at least compared to all the other feats. I've tinkered with a lot of different hb PnP rules systems, so I guess I'm just used to looking more at the over all game balance, than anything else, LOL.

Is Dodge under powered? shouldn't it give us an additional +1 every 5 character levels?


Re: Tumble, another idea I had is to allow you a percentage chance based on your overall tumble score to 'evade' damage from spells and attacks while tumbling. ;>

[donfilibuster]

Maybe it's my PnP background, but it seems to be so to me, at least compared to all the other feats. I've tinkered with a lot of different hb PnP rules systems, so I guess I'm just used to looking more at the over all game balance, than anything else, LOL.

Is Dodge under powered? shouldn't it give us an additional +1 every 5 character levels?

Re: Tumble, another idea I had is to allow you a percentage chance based on your overall tumble score to 'evade' damage from spells and attacks while tumbling. ;>

But mobility buff is only when moving, with or without spring attack, you get the lower attack rate.
When you stop for full attack you don't get this bonus, while you get dodge even if it is only +1.

Both dodge and mobility would benefit toons that won't use tumble, not even with 1 rank.