Fortification

[Emili]

The rogue would throw up a tower shield (if that was the choice of several that they chose) because, in this situation, they want the defense, and they're trying to SHED agro to allow sneak attacks again, so penalty to-hit doesn't matter.

I know, I know, PD play isn't even close to regular play, but in MV rogues, and even casters, often carry around a tower shield for emergencies.

While I understand what you're saying here... it's quite simple to place in light. Rogue on the back of a mob being tanked and the tank dies in a blink rogue takes agro and two swings from mob being crits - rogue is crited to dead before even being able to grab a shield placing it up... happens consistantly as random number generators have a this wonderful thing to them of producing number clusters.

btw I do have a light shield on my rogue and on my wizard I do not recall last I pulled them out due to being more offensive ... a tower I'd never consider carrying on either.

[jkm]

Ink, while i like what you've done here. I still think a better system would be that the fort item presents a negative to the mob's critical confirmation roll. This pushes AC more into the equation and balances out the damage for cloth wearers.

for example, if heavy fort was a -15 to the confirmation roll, then AC would matter much much more than it does now.

so a Mob with +40 to hit goes against a 45 AC character with heavy fortification

Character hit on a 5 or above

critical threat roll would be against AC with a -15 modifier meaning the mob would have to roll a 20 to confirm the critical (IE 95% fortification).

[BOgre]

Unfortunately, all this does is remove all melees except for Fighters and Paladins from all groups higher than about 10.

"Predictable and reliable" isn't driven by the devs, it is driven by group selection. You might enjoy often failing raids ("it's fun to fail" - attributed to Eladrin), but that doesn't appear to be a common preference.
If you simply nerf a bunch of classes ... those toons will simply stop playing or be carried around in backpacks.

It is still a double penalty. Kind of like double taxation actually.

Meanwhile classes that never have problems getting into groups are much less negatively affected by this system.
Why should already squishy rogues et. al. have to pay for an enhancement line others don't?

on the other hand a squishy ranger/monk/rogue with 500 odd hitpoints is the one that gets into trouble when he is supposed to take 1'000'000+ hits in his career as a PC. D&D was always a roleplaying game first,

It is already becoming more and more difficult to role play in DDO, since DPS seems to be the way the game is heading. As it is, I'm finding it hard to justify my Ranger. He's so weak and so squishy, and doesn't contribute anything unique to a group that can't be duplicated by a hardier melee build. And if I have to accept the fact I might die once in a while, because of a few lucky hits in a row, eh, I dunno, my thoughts aren't very well formed I guess. PD guilds will disappear, that's for sure. Failing isn't an option there at all, being unlucky for 10 seconds after playing expertly for 10 months would take the fun out of it for me, I bet.
This seems like more of a move in the wrong direction. I'd really prefer to see systems in place that make the Specialist classes MORE valuable.
Like, in PnP, a good DM took pains to create challenges that forced his players to cooperate and make use of their class specific abilities. A trap or dead-end only passable with the Rog's help. A Boss that could only be killed by a perfectly placed combination of arrows, fired from max range. A mad dash through certain death, with all casters chanting madly to keep the flames/acid/falling rocks from killing us all, a fight against creatures only a pally could stand in front of without crumbling like a mozza... If we're all just going to hack and slash with the biggest sword/axe/stick we can find, wearing the biggest suit of armor we can find, well, I might as well play Baldur's on my Xbox, over and over and over...
Am I whining? sorry

[Razcar]

oops :P

ok, shield mastery, if you can fit it. Or one of the enhancements. Or defensive stance and an addy light shield. Ummm, or combat xp (riiiiiggggghhhhtttt).

But, you get the point.

I get the point - that you are reaching. Reaching very far for a justification.

The system as proposed is unbalanced and unfair because it punishes classes that are already punished once, but balanced for it; with less HP. The worst ones off are rogues, since they have a harder time getting a good AC than monks or rangers, and have a smaller Hit Die. But monks would be in the rough as well since they cannot use any armor or shields.

If rogues, rangers, bards and monks would suddenly get this new disadvantage imposed on them they should get a powerful bonus to balance it. Otherwise it is just a one-sided nerf.

It just seems to me that the OP hasn't thought his proposal through enough from all classes' perspective. Maybe he doesn't play the classes punished, I don't know. But hopefully Eladrin and the rest of the devs will have all classes in mind when they change Fortification.

[TheKaige]

Personally, I'm of the idea that fortification as a percentage is a broken idea;

Fortification, imo, should be changed to stacking DR against critical hits and sneak attacks than can never reduce the damage to lower than a normal attack

(I get the idea of a magical force of energy covering all of your vulnerable spots; but by that logic, shouldn't the attackers ability to penetrate that force of energy to get to your vitals be based on how hard he hits you, and not a random percentage chance?)

Fortification should not be a standard piece of gear imo, because living targets are vulnerable in certain spots; that's one of the main advantages of undead/constructs/plants etc.. Plus, I'm of the mind that if every character above 14 has a Minos Legens practically, what isn't every monster above 18 at least wearing a Minos Legens/Heavy Fort item? I doubt that giving every humanoid monster a heavy fort item would make very many people happy.

Plus as a cleric, yes, this will make healing harder, but this will also make healers more important; just because playing a class gets harder, it isn't a bad thing.

Understandably, fortification is probably around to stay, so I'm all in favor of the fortification dropping.

[TheKaige]

unfortunately the main use of fort is not to prevent damage (crit damage is only a minor contrubion as most enemies have low crit profiles). It is to prevent damage spikes.

Without 100% you will still have those. The difference between 95% and 50% is quite irrelevant.



If such a system will be implemented i can see some people take the effort to get 100% while those with builds that have difficulties so no longer invest in any fortification at all.

Couldn't have said it better myself. That's why medium fortification just doesn't cut in current game; heavy fort or go home practically.

[Uska]

I would like to know where you heard this rumor other than someone who proably knows nothing other than the fact the idea they think it should change. I read that link about him thinking about it but I dont see it happening way to big a can of worms change this and you have to change a lot more just seems they are making the game less and less desirble for me to play.

[Invalid_50]

I remember AD suggested this awhile back. Wasn't necessary then, it isn't necessary now. If you don't like the way fort works now, just take off your fort item. This is the kind of thing they had in EverQuest. MT had to squeeze his buttcheeks together for half an hour while his health bar yo-yoed from spike damage. It was the reason that you had to have certain hit point levels to even be considered a main tank, it was also the reason that raids would often fail soon after the mt went down. One champion MT, a battalion of healers and everyone else was just a cog. There was nothing random about it, we all expected stupidity, and stupidity is exactly what we got (there was no real competition in the mmo market at this time).

Changing fortification will likely cause an even greater rift between the haves and the have nots. You must be this tall to ride the shroud (substitute tall for this many hit points). not to mention it will benefit pure min maxers the most (everyone born into eberron apparently has max health, even the sickly casters who spent the majority of their lives with their noses in books.)

The fact that DDO doesn't have those silly critical hits is a breath of fresh air from other mmos. I'm sorry but I just don't get this "it must be harder harder hardcore" thought process; really DDO just isn't that hardcore, but there are plenty of mmo's out there that are. In fact many people play this game specifically because it is NOT hardcore like those other games. Spike damage that you can do nothing about unless you use all your slot items for fort junk doesnt make the game "harder" it makes the game "dumber" (of course that's my subjective opinion). It will cause people who create groups to scrutinize even further those they allow in their raids. it will cause clerics and fvs to be even more wary about joining groups as healers. Most of all it will require certain classes to fundamentally change the way that they currently play the game or be eventually shunned from pugs, simply because a few folks out there think the game should be made "harder".

I do however applaud the OP's motivation of improving the game.

[Talias006]

Dear devs,

</snip>

Throughout this whole thread I've noticed that nobody really put up the max numbers. And I'm guessing it would be because it's wholly ridiculous when you think about the max Fort a Warforged Fighter/Defender with Adamantine Plating and a Adamantine Tower Shield and a Heavy Fort item using Combat Expertise (I'm not sure if Defender stance stacks with CE, though) could get. Am I over-exaggerating the point, maybe. Just a possibility.

+195% Fort total if both CE and Defender stance stacks.
(Or, if it doesn't stack: +185% No CE, yes Defender stance; and +180% No Defender stance, yes CE)

According to Ink's formula:
Item bonuses (existing fortification items):
+60% Heavy

Racial bonuses:
+25% Warforged

Armor bonuses (passive, based on type worn):
+30% Heavy
+10% Adamantine

Shield bonuses (passive, based on type used):
+20% Tower
+5% Adamantine

Feat bonuses (stacking):
+10% Combat Expertise (when active)
+10% Shield Mastery (requires shield equipped)
+10% Improved Shield Mastery (requires shield equipped)

Enhancement bonuses:
+15% Defender III

[wonkey]

I get the point - that you are reaching. Reaching very far for a justification.

The system as proposed is unbalanced and unfair because it punishes classes that are already punished once, but balanced for it; with less HP. The worst ones off are rogues, since they have a harder time getting a good AC than monks or rangers, and have a smaller Hit Die. But monks would be in the rough as well since they cannot use any armor or shields.

If rogues, rangers, bards and monks would suddenly get this new disadvantage imposed on them they should get a powerful bonus to balance it. Otherwise it is just a one-sided nerf.

It just seems to me that the OP hasn't thought his proposal through enough from all classes' perspective. Maybe he doesn't play the classes punished, I don't know. But hopefully Eladrin and the rest of the devs will have all classes in mind when they change Fortification.

The advantage of a heavy armor wearer over a light armor wearer is exactly 20% fort. A fighter loses a big chunk of their dps the same way a rogue does when using a shield. If you really feel the need to make up that 20%, the OP offers several ways, be that 2 enhancements (2-3 AP), or an enhancement and a feat, or a good shield, or whatever else.
Monks are a bit worse off, because they CAN'T use shields, or even light armor. The armor issue is offset a bit because of the advantage of robes over armor currently (it can be switched out fast, and the AC difference currently is a non-issue), and any class can choose that route.
Also note that they gain DPS when not using a shield, over someone that does, so that disadvantage is also not so great. But they don't get the choice. So, I admitted that maybe monks should get a boost in this regard, were the OPs suggestion implemented. A caster has some of the same issues (though they can probably easily load up a light mithril shield for a bit more fortification), but they're not front-liners either. So, maybe they could get something, maybe not.

I don't see how pointing out that the OP gave multiple avenues to reach 100% fort, and any character can do it, if they feel it truly necessary, is a big reach.

[Beld]

the gap between the haves and the have nots, have you checked the gap lately?? If you aren't min/maxed with a specific race/class and decked out in GS, you aren't getting in a lot of groups, period. Also, the game isn't much fun when the ONLY strategy is brute force.....that's not a strategy, that's just a point and click exercise in futility. Tweaking some of the game mechanics to make the game more of a mental stimulus is a good thing, if you just want to point and click, there are a myriad of console and computer games out there that have this mechanic in abundance.

I don't run Epics atm because they are BORING....I find myself having the most fun in the game when I solo, because there are actual tactics and strategy required to win....I know, bummer on the loss of XP/min but hey, I actually play to have fun, not to see how fast I can level a toon to TR and level again.

This would make build strategys viable again, create MORE diversity and generate better players, instead of the plethora of min/maxed DPS builds that inhabit Eberron atm, most of which were found on the forums and built with the help of playmates carrying folks along to 'gear' a toon.

I agree that AC needs some love, but I also agree with an above poster that if we can all get Heavy Fort @ lvl 12-14, then EPIC mobs should all have it and therefore, NEVER be critted, just like us. This would mean the monster stats and HP would have to be tweaked, but I think this would be a valid trade off. I think at the least, Fort should not apply to a 'Held', 'Stunned' or 'Paralyzed' mob or player, you are helpless, there is no way that I couldn't 'brain' a immovable mob and likewise for them, if you can't move to defend yourself, you should be one shotted.

This would make FoM needed again, would make toons concentrate on saving throws ect. I don't think this should apply to 'Trip' as you would still be able to roll around and protect yourself while prone.

Change is not only good, it is necessary....once you accept this in both life and games, you will start to see things you had previously thought impossible.

[sephiroth1084]

I like the idea, but don't think the system needs to be so complex, and don't believe it needs to be tied so heavily to armor types and such.

Bump Heavy Fort down to 75%, provide a couple of other sources to make up another 50% or so (a little bit for armor and shields, with just a few named items like the Stalwart Trinket from the Crystal Cove with stacking Fortification) and start throwing more attacks that reduce fortification at players.

We've received a few abilities that cause us to reduce our fort for a benefit, but haven't, to my knowledge, seen any monster-based effects, other than Disjunction, that reduce our fortification.

I definitely would have preferred being helpless to reduce fortification, on top of the other properties of the condition, to the system the devs have put in place, where we just take +X% more damage depending on difficulty.

[NaturalHazard]

why not just give light/medium/heavy armour some stacking dr bonuses?

[sephiroth1084]

why not just give light/medium/heavy armour some stacking dr bonuses?

Completely irrelevant to this topic.

[Invalid_50]

the gap between the haves and the have nots, have you checked the gap lately?? If you aren't min/maxed with a specific race/class and decked out in GS, you aren't getting in a lot of groups, period. Also, the game isn't much fun when the ONLY strategy is brute force.....that's not a strategy, that's just a point and click exercise in futility. Tweaking some of the game mechanics to make the game more of a mental stimulus is a good thing, if you just want to point and click, there are a myriad of console and computer games out there that have this mechanic in abundance.

I don't run Epics atm because they are BORING....I find myself having the most fun in the game when I solo, because there are actual tactics and strategy required to win....I know, bummer on the loss of XP/min but hey, I actually play to have fun, not to see how fast I can level a toon to TR and level again.

This would make build strategys viable again, create MORE diversity and generate better players, instead of the plethora of min/maxed DPS builds that inhabit Eberron atm, most of which were found on the forums and built with the help of playmates carrying folks along to 'gear' a toon.

I agree that AC needs some love, but I also agree with an above poster that if we can all get Heavy Fort @ lvl 12-14, then EPIC mobs should all have it and therefore, NEVER be critted, just like us. This would mean the monster stats and HP would have to be tweaked, but I think this would be a valid trade off. I think at the least, Fort should not apply to a 'Held', 'Stunned' or 'Paralyzed' mob or player, you are helpless, there is no way that I couldn't 'brain' a immovable mob and likewise for them, if you can't move to defend yourself, you should be one shotted.

This would make FoM needed again, would make toons concentrate on saving throws ect. I don't think this should apply to 'Trip' as you would still be able to roll around and protect yourself while prone.

Change is not only good, it is necessary....once you accept this in both life and games, you will start to see things you had previously thought impossible.

I think your heart is in the right place, but a suggestion to improve the game that would nullify a great many builds as well as PRE (frenzied berserker would be meaningless if all monsters had 100% fort) is not the way to go. In fact merely suggesting that shows you are not thinking long term here, which further discredits your arguments.

The devs are already bypassing fortification in u9. If you are held, turned to stone, etc you take additional damage, regardless of your fortification. On those harder difficulties, that is going to hurt. I anticipate monsters making more use of those spells in the future.

I agree that AC is dumb right now, and heavy armor is pointless at end game, but those two facts have nothing to do with fortification. It has already been suggested elsewhere to give heavy armor DR that even improves with levels. I cannot remember the post where that was recommended but it seems to be a much better suggestion than what we have here.

P.S. the gap may be large, but its not nearly that big of a factor compared to what it would be if they did something like this.

P.S.S If you really have that big of a problem with it currently, only wear moderate fort, or better yet no fort at all. Boom you got your excitement and don't have to change the game experience for everyone else.

[MRH]

If this was to happen, it is the same as turbine saying :

"lmao thanks for spending all your time grinding orchard for all of your toons, now go and grind multiple items for all your toons again, because we dont care about the time you've invested gearing your characters. Oh and have fun grinding with the new crafting system "

Why not fix the stuff that is broken and leave the stuff that isn't alone?

[NaturalHazard]

Completely irrelevant to this topic.

some people used the fact that armour was almost irrelevant and some guy wearing heavy armour got nothing out of it, while some other guy in pj's got better ac, could switch them out faster, so unless your a DS, or SD, theres no real benifit to wearing heavy armour past a certain level. This would at least give something, without having to maybe open the possible can of worms that is fortification.

sure it would actually make monster rogues dangerous again........

but squishy builds, races, classes already got it hard, anyone want to play an elf/drow? even more turn off, because you need even more hp now to try and cover the spike damage.

[sephiroth1084]

If this was to happen, it is the same as turbine saying :

"lmao thanks for spending all your time grinding orchard for all of your toons, now go and grind multiple items for all your toons again, because we dont care about the time you've invested gearing your characters. Oh and have fun grinding with the new crafting system "

You make it sound like obtaining 20 tapestries is challenging or incredibly time consuming.

This is more a health of the game issue than anything else. Everyone running around from level 9-11 onward with heavy fort is a problem. It has been for a long time. I'm just disappointed that the devs have taken so long to even start to address the issue.



PS. It's a much bigger blow to the folks who went and crafted a Min II accessory, or slotted an epic item with Heavy Fort than to the Minos Legens wearers.

[NaturalHazard]

The devs are already bypassing fortification in u9. If you are held, turned to stone, etc you take additional damage, regardless of your fortification. On those harder difficulties, that is going to hurt. I anticipate monsters making more use of those spells in the future.

I agree that AC is dumb right now, and heavy armor is pointless at end game, but those two facts have nothing to do with fortification. It has already been suggested elsewhere to give heavy armor DR that even improves with levels. I cannot remember the post where that was recommended but it seems to be a much better suggestion than what we have here.

P.S. the gap may be large, but its not nearly that big of a factor compared to what it would be if they did something like this.

P.S.S If you really have that big of a problem with it currently, only wear moderate fort, or better yet no fort at all. Boom you got your excitement and don't have to change the game experience for everyone else.

I have to agree with this veiw totally.

[sephiroth1084]

some people used the fact that armour was almost irrelevant and some guy wearing heavy armour got nothing out of it, while some other guy in pj's got better ac, could switch them out faster, so unless your a DS, or SD, theres no real benifit to wearing heavy armour past a certain level. This would at least give something, without having to maybe open the possible can of worms that is fortification.

sure it would actually make monster rogues dangerous again........

but squishy builds, races, classes already got it hard, anyone want to play an elf/drow? even more turn off, because you need even more hp now to try and cover the spike damage.

Whether heavy armor should mean anything or not is beside the point of this thread about fortification. And that can of worms (fort) needs opening.

We're already dealing with spikey damage from spells. This would just inject spikes back into melee combat. And would make rogue-type enemies actually meaningful in a way they are supposed to be.