Suggestion to help fix S&B Intim

[Trillea]

Most S&B intim are going to be either DoS or Stalwart Defender - so what I suggest is this:

On the 2nd or 3rd tier of DoS and Stalwart Defender, in addition to what is already there, add this - every point that you are healed while holding a shield adds 1 point of threat. This, along with the new changes to intim, would help sword and board intims hold aggro when they need to the most.

Discuss.

[Tirisha]

I would rather get hate by being missed *using AC* or by damage mitigation. Basically the things you do while being s@b should frustrate the guy and make him hate you

[Tarnoc]

i would rather see shield mastery imp shield mastery and add greater shield mastery work like TWF and THF chains and the second weapon is the shiled bashing value and having all three makes you have a passive shield blocking dr.........


A TRUE SWORD AND BOARD FIGHTER WOULD BE USING HIS SHIELD AS A WEAPON JUST LIKE HIS WEAPON

[Junts]

I would rather get hate by being missed *using AC* or by damage mitigation. Basically the things you do while being s@b should frustrate the guy and make him hate you

Because of how grazing hits work, when tanking any kind of raid boss on hard or elite you take noticable melee damage no matter how much ac you have, and they always have magical or otherwise attacks as well that will cause damage, so hey..healing isnt a bad idea, but it would probably produce too much threat, to be honest.

[Angelus_dead]

On the 2nd or 3rd tier of DoS and Stalwart Defender, in addition to what is already there, add this - every point that you are healed while holding a shield adds 1 point of threat. This, along with the new changes to intim, would help sword and board intims hold aggro when they need to the most.

1. That would hurt verisimilitude, because it is irrational for an enemy to behave that way.
2. That would be a needless complication. If the devs feel that those specialties need help generating threat, they can just give them bonuses to the existing threat-increasing features.

[sirgog]

1. That would hurt verisimilitude, because it is irrational for an enemy to behave that way.

Almost any sort of threat control breaks verisimilitude.

Take the Epic Aspect of Cunning - this guy is the embodiment of a GOD's intelligence, and probably has an Int score well into the 40s (although this is an untested estimate). Yet even he is stupid enough to ignore the squishy casters and clerics and focus on a Paladin that uses Intimidate to insult his mother.

[Angelus_dead]

Yet even he is stupid enough to ignore the squishy casters and clerics and focus on a Paladin that uses Intimidate to insult his mother.

Intimidate is a skill to cause enemies to make errors in tactical priorities.

A 70 Intimidate modifier is a ludicrously superhuman ability to cause enemies to make errors in tactical priorities. That effect is justified by the remarkable abilities of the character, and also the numerous powerful magic effects boosting his Intimidate. This is consistent with the setting principles "The PCs are extraordinary people" and "Magic does powerful stuff".

A better example would be the new Intimidate bonus to threat generation by holding a shield. That lacks a justification from the setting or the coherent game rules, and is a fairly blatant exception to buff a role that needs it. Adding a second threat-generation benefit to holding a shield would be more of the same, but just because there's one verisimilitude break doesn't mean it's a good idea to add more. Minimizing the number of overt exceptions is preferable.

[Junts]

Intimidate is a skill to cause enemies to make errors in tactical priorities.

A 70 Intimidate modifier is a ludicrously superhuman ability to cause enemies to make errors in tactical priorities. That effect is justified by the remarkable abilities of the character, and also the numerous powerful magic effects boosting his Intimidate. This is consistent with the setting principles "The PCs are extraordinary people" and "Magic does powerful stuff".

A better example would be the new Intimidate bonus to threat generation by holding a shield. That lacks a justification from the setting or the coherent game rules, and is a fairly blatant exception to buff a role that needs it. Adding a second threat-generation benefit to holding a shield would be more of the same, but just because there's one verisimilitude break doesn't mean it's a good idea to add more. Minimizing the number of overt exceptions is preferable.

There are certain ways that offensive shield use can force someone to pay closer attention to you in front of them than people who are further away - think about how present-day SWAT teams use those large, bulletproof shields to not just protect themselves but to close on and control people - the shield is large and can be used to push a target around in such a way that if they don't focus first on avoiding you and your shield, they'll be pushed over backwards, to the side, or otherwise unbalanced and made too vulnerable. The large surface area and close range required to use the shield make it harder to consistently avoid or deflect it the way you would a swipe from a longer weapon, which has a longer recovery time and can be deflected instead of just avoided - you can't deflect something that large, and it's protection lets it get much closer to you than a more offensive weapon would permit (they can keep advancing into your attacks instead of having to back away or stand their ground to deflect your counterattack).

This technique isn't necessarily a modern one, and it would have a lot of application in a setting like this. 3.5 handled it primarily as bull-rushing, but we don't have anything like that.

Keep in mind, the most unrealistic thing about DDO combat is dual wielding: Most highly-trained warriors of the dark, medieval and renaissance periods used weapon and shield or even single, one-handed weapon fighting styles, and larger, two-handed weaponry was primarily reserved for lower classes with less training.

[sirgog]

There are certain ways that offensive shield use can force someone to pay closer attention to you in front of them than people who are further away - think about how present-day SWAT teams use those large, bulletproof shields to not just protect themselves but to close on and control people - the shield is large and can be used to push a target around in such a way that if they don't focus first on avoiding you and your shield, they'll be pushed over backwards, to the side, or otherwise unbalanced and made too vulnerable. The large surface area and close range required to use the shield make it harder to consistently avoid or deflect it the way you would a swipe from a longer weapon, which has a longer recovery time and can be deflected instead of just avoided - you can't deflect something that large, and it's protection lets it get much closer to you than a more offensive weapon would permit (they can keep advancing into your attacks instead of having to back away or stand their ground to deflect your counterattack).

This technique isn't necessarily a modern one, and it would have a lot of application in a setting like this. 3.5 handled it primarily as bull-rushing, but we don't have anything like that.

Such a tactic may work against Medium sized creatures, but against Huge foes - well, I just imagine something the size of a four-year old child pushing something at me trying to throw me off balance by pushing something the size of a dinner plate at my legs.

3.5 D&D really understates the amount size influences any combat. Doubling size in all dimensions should have a much larger impact than it does on combat.


Edit: Sorry, this post might have really derailed the thread. Oops. Sorry OP. At least the responses made me laugh.

[Syerson]

Well sure you would normally laugh at a 4-year old trying to knock you over. Now imagine that 4-year old with godly strength and a pan lid and spoon knocking you into the next room.

[voodoogroves]

Well sure you would normally laugh at a 4-year old trying to knock you over. Now imagine that 4-year old with godly strength and a pan lid and spoon knocking you into the next room.

No way man, his 5-year-old sister holding the mop, wearing her mother's housecoat and shooting sparks out of her macaroni-and-cheese encrusted face has my attention. I can recognize a caster when I see one.

[Nospheratus]

I would rather get hate by being missed *using AC* or by damage mitigation. Basically the things you do while being s@b should frustrate the guy and make him hate you

good idea!^

i would rather see shield mastery imp shield mastery and add greater shield mastery work like TWF and THF chains and the second weapon is the shiled bashing value and having all three makes you have a passive shield blocking dr.........


A TRUE SWORD AND BOARD FIGHTER WOULD BE USING HIS SHIELD AS A WEAPON JUST LIKE HIS WEAPON

good idea!^

Such a tactic may work against Medium sized creatures, but against Huge foes - well, I just imagine something the size of a four-year old child pushing something at me trying to throw me off balance by pushing something the size of a dinner plate at my legs.

3.5 D&D really understates the amount size influences any combat. Doubling size in all dimensions should have a much larger impact than it does on combat.

I believe it's not the size modifier that is wrong, it's the huge bonuses we have these days to intimidate. And regardless of that, it still makes some sense due to how extraordinary the player characters are compared to normal people, or 4-year olds!

[IronClan]

There are certain ways that offensive shield use can force someone to pay closer attention to you in front of them than people who are further away - think about how present-day SWAT teams use those large, bulletproof shields to not just protect themselves but to close on and control people - the shield is large and can be used to push a target around in such a way that if they don't focus first on avoiding you and your shield, they'll be pushed over backwards, to the side, or otherwise unbalanced and made too vulnerable. The large surface area and close range required to use the shield make it harder to consistently avoid or deflect it the way you would a swipe from a longer weapon, which has a longer recovery time and can be deflected instead of just avoided - you can't deflect something that large, and it's protection lets it get much closer to you than a more offensive weapon would permit (they can keep advancing into your attacks instead of having to back away or stand their ground to deflect your counterattack).

This technique isn't necessarily a modern one, and it would have a lot of application in a setting like this. 3.5 handled it primarily as bull-rushing, but we don't have anything like that.

Keep in mind, the most unrealistic thing about DDO combat is dual wielding: Most highly-trained warriors of the dark, medieval and renaissance periods used weapon and shield or even single, one-handed weapon fighting styles, and larger, two-handed weaponry was primarily reserved for lower classes with less training.

Excellent points Junts +1

[IronClan]

Such a tactic may work against Medium sized creatures, but against Huge foes - well, I just imagine something the size of a four-year old child pushing something at me trying to throw me off balance by pushing something the size of a dinner plate at my legs.

3.5 D&D really understates the amount size influences any combat. Doubling size in all dimensions should have a much larger impact than it does on combat.

All covered by magic and heroic status.

[IronClan]

No way man, his 5-year-old sister holding the mop, wearing her mother's housecoat and shooting sparks out of her macaroni-and-cheese encrusted face has my attention. I can recognize a caster when I see one.

Wait until she's a teenager! Teenage casters are a handful...