First Look - U9 Crafting

[Lyetisha]

Fair warning: This is going to be long.

As I've seen mentioned a few times already, I was under the impression from the comments Fernando made during the PAX interview that I would be able to take one of my items and be able to strip off one part of it to place on another item. If I had a +5 Vorpal Cold Iron Khopesh of Greater Construct Bane, I would be able to pick the +5, the Vorpal, or the Greater Construct Bane or I would be able to keep the Cold Iron Khopesh as a blank. It is unfortunate this isn't the case, however the depth of crafting we have been presented with is a great start: 225 levels of crafting as 75 each of Divine, Arcane and Elemental.

As a player, and person I'm well aware there are times that the Developers make decisions and present us with systems we simply must accept and become accustomed. This is definitely one of those times.

Now I present to you Tisha's review of U9 Crafting.

1) Crafting level.

Currently, the Developers have decided that for a player to succeed at crafting a shard and receive XP for the success, you can be up to 8 levels higher or 10 levels lower than the recipe. Anything outside of this range either yields 0 xp or has less than a 50% chance of success (considered an auto-failure by the crafting system). You can get a crafting booster that appears to increase the +10 levels by 2-4 depending on how far into the crafting lines you are.

As well, each level of crafting increases 8% xp over the previous level. This progression seems fine.

Suggestion: None. There's nothing overall wrong with these Developer Decisions.

2) Crafting XP

From my own testing, it appears that if you consciously attempt to remain making shards at the 50% success chance, this is the maximum possible xp. It will take at least 2 successes, sometimes 3 to increase to the next level of crafting. There is an xp decay for each subsequent success. The decay appears to be: 100% xp for the first shard => 88% xp for the second shard and 73% xp for the third shard. As a design decision, this decay seems rather harsh.

Suggestion: Change the decay per success to a lower percentage. 5-10% seems a much better progression especially with the amount of materials required and the total of 75 levels per type.

3) Crafting Materials - Shard Creation

Each recipe takes Greater components, Lesser Components, and 1-2 Other components. How many of each are required depends on the recipe level. This is where the players and the Developers are going to have one of the the biggest disagreements, especially when it comes to the difference between Bound and UnBound shards. The following is based on the current Bound shard recipes only.

With 75 levels of crafting per material type, the progression of materials seems off. For example, I saw two recipes separated by 1-2 crafting levels. The first required 4 Lesser materials and the second jumped to 16 Lesser materials. That's a 400% increase.

Along with the Lesser materials, the progression of Greater materials is too great. I didn't notice any specific % increase but it appears to be roughly 100% at some points, to 300% at others.

Suggestion: Materials need a balancing pass badly. Greater materials shouldn't be used until much further into the crafting process. With 75 levels of crafting that should be roughly crafting level 25 recipes, at the minimum, with a more reasonable thought of crafting level 30 recipes.

4) Crafting Levels - Useless shards

Originally, I was in agreement that there should be a way to "crunch" the shards you create as you level. However, I found a way to accomplish this and I'm certainly hoping this was a Design Decision.

(This is only for weapon and armor shards since that's all I've been working on)
A) Buy clubs or studded leather at the Harbor Vendor (those were chosen as the least expensive)
B) Deconstruct them into blanks
C) Add your shards
D) "Crunch" this club and voila! You have some of your materials back.

Suggestion: Place vendors in the crafting hall with limited inventory. Weapons, Armor, and Jewelry generic items that still have to be "crunched" into blanks.

5) Crafting Materials - Item Deconstruction

This is part two of the division between player ideas and Developer Design. As it stands now, when you "crunch" an item the amount and type of materials you receive are completely random. While there is a progression, and there is an increase based on the ML of the item and the "level" of the prefix or suffix, there is still too much random generation.

Suggestion: At a minimum, the deconstruction of an item should yield the exact number of materials needed to make an equivalent shard. With this as the minimum, you can reward high level crafters with bonus materials with an equation involving their caster level in the appropriate crafting type vs the ML and prefix/suffix level.

As an example: a 75 Elemental crafter crunching a ML 10 item with Elemental level 5 prefix and Arcane level 5 suffix would receive the Elemental materials to make an equivalent level 5 prefix shard *and* 1-2 additional shards *OR* receive enough Arcane materials to make an equivalent level 5 suffix shard with no bonus materials.

6) Crafting Materials - Combining/Splitting

There is currently a bug with Lesser materials. Those purchased from the DDO store and those received from crunching don't mix and are unusable in crafting recipes. I certainly hope this isn't a design decision.

As mentioned above in Item Deconstruction, material generation is random. It is very possible to end up with a lot more Greater materials and not nearly enough Lesser materials. Unless a materials balancing pass is conducted, this will make Lesser material extremely rare for higher level crafting and Greater material just as rare for low level crafting.

Suggestion: Allow Greater and Lesser materials to be combined and split. With the current materials needed for each recipe this combination/splitting should be relatively small. To make Greater material, add a recipe to combine 10-20 Lesser materials. Conversely, and to avoid the possibility of creating more Lesser material out of the process, Greater material should be allowed to be split into 5-10 Lesser materials.

Additonal Suggestions:

- Each class should get a bonus to crafting according to types. This bonus should be relatively small. I'm thinking 2-5 crafting levels. The types would correspond to each class. For example: Wizards would get Arcane 5, Clerics would get Divine 5, Sorcerors would get Arcane 2 and Elemental 3, and so on and so forth.

- Prefix and Suffix notations on the crafting shards is a *MUST*. Either that, or allow the crafting process to make the first shard the prefix and the second shard the suffix.

-As an addendum to what I suggest for 5), a second suggestion would be to disallow destroying items that are above your crafting level. There would have to be a Developers Design decision made as to which level on the item would be linked to your crafting level. The easiest way would be to correlate crafting levels with MLs of the item.

- Will edit as more solid ideas come to me, or are suggested in this thread.

[Postumus]

nice review.

The crafting doesn't seem quite as easy as I thought it would be - I was thinking more Lordsmarch-style 'crafting for dummies,' than vale-style 'plot it on a spreadsheet' crafting, but you did a nice job explaining it and I think I get the idea.

Looking forward to more info.

[Hafeal]

nice review.

The crafting doesn't seem quite as easy as I thought it would be - I was thinking more Lordsmarch-style 'crafting for dummies,' than vale-style 'plot it on a spreadsheet' crafting, but you did a nice job explaining it and I think I get the idea.

Looking forward to more info.

I agree. It definitely appears to be a system designed to help players widdle away the hours.

[Calebro]

Suggestion: At a minimum, the deconstruction of an item should yield the exact number of materials needed to make an equivalent shard. With this as the minimum, you can reward high level crafters with bonus materials with an equation involving their caster level in the appropriate crafting type vs the ML and prefix/suffix level.

As an example: a 75 Elemental crafter crunching a ML 10 item with Elemental level 5 prefix and Arcane level 5 suffix would receive the Elemental materials to make an equivalent shard *and* 1-2 additional shards *OR* receive enough Arcane materials to make an equivalent shard with no bonus materials.

Part of the idea behind crafting is that it includes an inherent plat sink. You're breaking the items down into mats instead of selling them.
Getting enough ingredients to craft exactly what you deconstructed would defeat that purpose.
By that logic, I could deconstruct a plain +5 longsword, and get enough ingredients to craft a different +5 longsword.
Getting even *more* ingredients is just silly.
By that logic, if you deconstructed a plain +5 longsword, you'd get enough to craft a different +5 longsword.... and then you'd have extra ingredients on top of that that you didn't have previously.

When you deconstruct, you end up with less than it would be to craft that same item.
This is intentional, and this makes sense.

[Lyetisha]

You are misunderstanding the crafting process. Your +5 longsword can be "crunched" down to either the +5 or the longsword blank. Any prefix/suffix on this longsword yields the materials, not the item itself. Being able to craft Arcane Lore after crunching Arcane Lore off your +5 longsword has the same plat sink as before. Why?

1) You need the materials and crafting level to make the Arcane Lore shard.
2) You need the materials and crafting level to make the +5 shard
3) You need the longsword blank.

You are unable to take a plain +1-5 item and put what you want on it. It must be prepared first.

[dragonofsteel]

Part of the idea behind crafting is that it includes an inherent plat sink. You're breaking the items down into mats instead of selling them.
Getting enough ingredients to craft exactly what you deconstructed would defeat that purpose.
By that logic, I could deconstruct a plain +5 longsword, and get enough ingredients to craft a different +5 longsword.
Getting even *more* ingredients is just silly.
By that logic, if you deconstructed a plain +5 longsword, you'd get enough to craft a different +5 longsword.... and then you'd have extra ingredients on top of that that you didn't have previously.

When you deconstruct, you end up with less than it would be to craft that same item.
This is intentional, and this makes sense.

I do agree you should end up with less then takes to craft the same item, but when its less by 97% or 99% and the new items a bound one that a little silly. Yeah I can make my vorpal on kopesh that seem to never pull all I have to do is pull 100 vorpals to get it done. The items should return 10 to 15% of what takes to make a bound item at least. I can see the unbound being 1 to 2% to keep the market getting flooded in crafting effect weapons. Though making the bound items like this little silly. I thought the point of any system is to get as many peeps to use it as possible.. In turn uping the amount of TP spent on it. Example: 50% of the population using the crafting system and 50% spending some points and improving it and 10% alot.. That better then 20% of the populastion using it and same spending points on it. Even though second example spent more points pre person, the 1st spent more on a whole adding more $$ for Trubine.

That the fine line you have to walk, make it to easy and every just uses it with no TP used. Make it to hard and no one uses at all, accept some the power gamers to get the few neat incentive items they place in it. THis should not be a cake walk to get up in the ranks, but at sametime should not end up as epic are know, turning off many because of the insane grind.

[Calebro]

I understand that.
But the way that you described it made it sound like you wanted deconstruction to yield an equivalent amount of mats as what would be needed to craft that same item, or possibly*more* materials than what it would cost to craft it.

Suggestion: At a minimum, the deconstruction of an item should yield the exact number of materials needed to make an equivalent shard. With this as the minimum, you can reward high level crafters with bonus materials with an equation involving their caster level in the appropriate crafting type vs the ML and prefix/suffix level.
Gaining equivalent materials makes the system too easy.
Offering bonus materials is just foolish.

As an example: a 75 Elemental crafter crunching a ML 10 item with Elemental level 5 prefix and Arcane level 5 suffix would receive the Elemental materials to make an equivalent shard *and* 1-2 additional shards *OR* receive enough Arcane materials to make an equivalent shard with no bonus materials.

The idea is to remove many weapons and items from the game, thereby reducing the amount of plat made off of vendor trash. Only the best randomly created weapons and items will be on the AH, because the junk will be deconstructed.
This will help normalize prices somewhat, as a lot of the junk will not be there to raise the prices of the good stuff, and because good stuff can be made without ever looking at the AH.

The intelligent way to deconstruct is to take single enchantment items and deconstruct them.
Let's say crafting a simple +5 longsword requires 25 whatchamacallits.
By your suggested method, if you have a good crafting score, taking a simple +5 longsword and deconstructing would yield 30 whatchamacallits, when it only requires 25 to craft. That's absurd.
Deconstructing that longsword should yield 5-10 whatchamacallits, so you have to deconstruct many longswords in order to craft one.
That's the inherent plat sink, and that's exactly the way it should be.

edit:
As to the poster above me and all his BTC stuff:
There will be recipes for both bound items, which will require fewer materials, AND unbound items, which will require more materials.

[dragonofsteel]

As to the poster above me and all his BTC stuff:
There will be recipes for both bound items, which will require fewer materials, AND unbound items, which will require more materials..].

Really I did not know that.. Ok now back to reality.. YES I KNOW THAT I WAS POSTING MY EXAMPLE HOW I THINK THE SYSTEM SHOULD WORK. Though we all know about opions, everyone has one ect.... Really just trolling the pages looking for were someone told me it will BTA when released live.

[Althotas]

As to the poster above me and all his BTC stuff:
There will be recipes for both bound items, which will require fewer materials, AND unbound items, which will require more materials.[/quote]

Actually ALL items are bound to character once you make them. There are no UNBOUND items. I have seen no where that a Dev has stated there will be unbound equipment made from the crafting in this game.

[Calebro]

As to the poster above me and all his BTC stuff:
There will be recipes for both bound items, which will require fewer materials, AND unbound items, which will require more materials.

Actually ALL items are bound to character once you make them. There are no UNBOUND items. I have seen no where that a Dev has stated there will be unbound equipment made from the crafting in this game.

I highlighted the important part of that post in red for you.

And now you have.
The unbound crafting devices are suspected to be the empty areas, where a crafting device appears to be missing.
Those recipes will likely be added shortly, and almost assuredly before it goes live.

[Lyetisha]

Calebro:

I perfectly understood exactly what you were saying. You feel that it should take crunching multiple items to make an equivalent item. I see that I was unclear. I apologize for being unclear. My review was written from the point of view that we would be getting both Bound and UnBound crafting.

So with this clarification, where is the inherent problem with crunching a Divine prefix/suffix for the exact materials to create a Bound Vorpal shard to put on a weapon blank? Where would the inherent problem be with crunching 3-5 Divine prefix/suffix items to create an UnBound Vorpal shard? (Mind you, Vorpal shards aren't even in the U9 Preview yet so I did make up that they would be Divine.) As it stands now, you would have to crunch multiples of multiples of Divine items to get enough materials to create the Bound Vorpal shard.

I think you're forgetting that purchases off the AH aren't a full plat sink. Yes *you* lose the plat but the seller gains 70% of what you lost. That's more of a plat exchange.

Another thing is that there a mix-up when we talk about levels. There are the crafting levels, the ML of the item but each prefix/suffix has a separate level as well. This means even with an ML 18-20 item, you could have a level 3-5 prefix or suffix and a separate higher level prefix or suffix as well. To make the same Bound Vorpal shard, you would have to be a Divine level 60 (minimum for 50% success rate), and with the max crafting boost Divine level 58. At those levels, with that much crafting and grinding, I absolutely believe a crafter should be rewarded.

I think a more important question to ask Calebro is this: Are you capable of changing your opinion when presented with reasonable arguments? If so, that's a discussion and I'll continue. If not, it's an argument and I'll pass =D

BTW: I have edited the first post to help clear up the confusion you brought to my attention. Thank you.

[ckorik]

Calebro:
I think you're forgetting that purchases off the AH aren't a full plat sink. Yes *you* lose the plat but the seller gains 70% of what you lost. That's more of a plat exchange.

True,

However I believe the idea of a plat sink was that the item - regardless of the AH price - would not be sold to a vendor and thus no *new* cash came into the economy.

In the above AH scenario - you have a net plat loss of the items vendor price (more with haggle!) - along with the 30% AH cut that happened.

While that doesn't sound like a lot consider that little changes like this could radically change the money supply - remember now it is very unlikely that people will sell off equipment when they no longer need it - as long as they have crafting levels to attain.

[Lyetisha]

True,

However I believe the idea of a plat sink was that the item - regardless of the AH price - would not be sold to a vendor and thus no *new* cash came into the economy.

In the above AH scenario - you have a net plat loss of the items vendor price (more with haggle!) - along with the 30% AH cut that happened.

While that doesn't sound like a lot consider that little changes like this could radically change the money supply - remember now it is very unlikely that people will sell off equipment when they no longer need it - as long as they have crafting levels to attain.

I completely agree. However that tends to change this from a discussion regarding the first pass of Crafting we've seen and more into an economics discussion.

I'd like to steer clear of that if possible please =)

[Synnestar35791]

Her breakdown is about as authentic as it gets, and I've made refference to this post in my post.

Basically, it's going to take alot of deconstructing to earn the pieces to CONSTRUCT, which is where experience becomes earnable...

the Grind continues...

[Calebro]

Calebro:

I perfectly understood exactly what you were saying. You feel that it should take crunching multiple items to make an equivalent item. I see that I was unclear. I apologize for being unclear. My review was written from the point of view that we would be getting both Bound and UnBound crafting.

So with this clarification, where is the inherent problem with crunching a Divine prefix/suffix for the exact materials to create a Bound Vorpal shard to put on a weapon blank? Where would the inherent problem be with crunching 3-5 Divine prefix/suffix items to create an UnBound Vorpal shard? (Mind you, Vorpal shards aren't even in the U9 Preview yet so I did make up that they would be Divine.) As it stands now, you would have to crunch multiples of multiples of Divine items to get enough materials to create the Bound Vorpal shard.

Random mats from a deconstruction serves multiple purposes.
1. We all know that there are very few prefixes and suffixes that are actually useful compared to the large number possible. Random mats serve to offer a second option with tose from selling them to the nearest bartender. You can deconstruct them and get some mats to use for an item that will be more useful.
2. There are things on the crafting list that are not available on random items, or are extremely rare on random items. Random mats serve as a way to craft these items, whereas only getting those mats from those particular items would be more difficult.
3. If we only got those mats from those items, then all of those items would disappear. No one would be selling a single holy weapon, because they would be hoarding them in order to craft. Random mats allows for those useful items to still be sold/traded while we craft better or more specific items.
4. Taking the above #3 into account, random mats are better for the economy as well as better for crafting purposes.

I think you're forgetting that purchases off the AH aren't a full plat sink. Yes *you* lose the plat but the seller gains 70% of what you lost. That's more of a plat exchange.

I'm not counting purchases on the AH as a plat sink. I';m counting NOT having those items on the AH BECAUSE of the plat sink of deconstructing them vs. selling/trading/auctioning them.
The plat sink isn't the AH. The plat sink is that those items never enter the economy to begin with because they'll immediately be deconstructed.

Another thing is that there a mix-up when we talk about levels. There are the crafting levels, the ML of the item but each prefix/suffix has a separate level as well. This means even with an ML 18-20 item, you could have a level 3-5 prefix or suffix and a separate higher level prefix or suffix as well. To make the same Bound Vorpal shard, you would have to be a Divine level 60 (minimum for 50% success rate), and with the max crafting boost Divine level 58. At those levels, with that much crafting and grinding, I absolutely believe a crafter should be rewarded.

They are rewarded. They're rewarded with crafting XP, which will allow them to craft better items, which will create more crafting XP. It's a cycle. That's a reward in and of itself.
That's not even mentioning that eventually they'll be able to sell their crafts, or use the items themselves, which are both rewards as well.

I think a more important question to ask Calebro is this: Are you capable of changing your opinion when presented with reasonable arguments? If so, that's a discussion and I'll continue. If not, it's an argument and I'll pass =D

If you feel I'm being argumentative then just let it drop.
You'll notice that I had nothing to say about the rest of your post, because I agree with most of it.
But that one point, where you believe that crafters should get exactly the right mats, and even get a bonus from it.... even your revised and better explained version.... I simply find ridiculous.

[Calebro]

I completely agree. However that tends to change this from a discussion regarding the first pass of Crafting we've seen and more into an economics discussion.

I'd like to steer clear of that if possible please =)

You're making suggestions that will alter the economy, in a thread about something that will alter the economy.... but you don't want to talk about the economy.
Sorry, but it's integral to the system, and should be discussed when appropriate.

[Lyetisha]

~snip~
You'll notice that I had nothing to say about the rest of your post, because I agree with most of it.
But that one point, where you believe that crafters should get exactly the right mats, and even get a bonus from it.... even your revised and better explained version.... I simply find ridiculous.

For the correct crafting type, yes. I did suggest that a max level elemental crafter crunching elemental prefix/suffix would receive the bonus, but crunching arcane or divine yields no bonus. The same for a max level Divine or Arcane crunching their prefix/suffix.

The explanation you provide in your post that I snipped out simply highlights exactly why I feel it is necessary to provide the additional materials for the crafting type. You said the reward is crafting xp. Okay. What about once you've reached max crafting level?

And again, you're ignoring the difference between Bound and Unbound shards. Bound shards create Bound items.

As far as the economy discussion, I happen to be the type that isn't consumed with people earning virtual money in a game that needs virtual money to grow.

But as you say, we can let it drop and I can engage with others in this thread. =)

[Synnestar35791]

was an experienced view point on the crafting due to be released, and it's pretty accurate,

The game ECONOMY is already ****, and it isn't going to improve until EVERYONE comes to some semblence of a comprimise on how to IMPROVE it...

Honestly, if we did discuss loot, what I'm forced to ask myself is,,, did what I just receive from that chest = what these monsters would be hoarding,,, and for the majority of the lower adventures = no = BUT the higfher end, it can pay dividends.

In all honesty, Greensteele is SUPPOSED to be a grind, right?...

if everyone had it or could get it, wouldn't the monster also have a counter attack to dispell it's awesome effects?....

just a thought....

[Calebro]

But as you say, we can let it drop and I can engage with others in this thread. =)

Done. I've said my piece on the matter anyway.

[Lyetisha]

I took a walk and while I was walking I came up with another idea, as a way to perhaps balance the materials generated by the deconstruction of items.

Other games limit what you can destroy to create materials by linking the destruction to your crafting level. This would have to be figured out based on the various levels I've already mentioned can appear on one item: ML, enhancement bonus, prefix level and suffix level. Would it then be more beneficial to allow a decay of total materials if your "level" is below the minimum?

By minimum, I mean the Developer Designed shard. So if you can make a Bound Vorpal shard, you can crunch Divine and yield the exact Divine materials to craft it, but if you can't make that Vorpal shard you would receive significantly less crafting materials.

This means that a level 1 divine crafter who crunches a vorpal weapon would get only a handful of divine materials as compared to a level 75 divine crafter crunching the same weapon.

I'm leaning towards requiring your crafting level to be appropriate before you can destroy for materials.