Crafting Viability

[steelblueskies]

Thanks for all the feedback - it's very helpful. The balance is still a work-in-progress. If you think it's stingy now, you should have seen it last week. :-)

thank you floyd. i already posted several places that this HAS to be a test setup given the powers of two numbers we were seeing(2/4/8/16/64/128/256/1024/2048/4096, not sure where 32/512 got lost but clear binary bit values in larger types), or below seems like as good a place to start as any.

further given eladrin's once upon a time comment on the ml values for the ioun stones(just mashed numbers at random) as a past approach, well with a testbed this massive that makes sense, just toss something out there and see responses, then start doubling or halving values until things fit.

actually i'm pretty sure that's the recommended initial test and balancing approach from one of LaMothe's game development books. s.o.p. right there for balancing.

would it be safe to assume that what effect is what crafting level is also a WIP? and the store item stack size/pricing/availability of materials.?

one can assume the special adventure pack only drops are less likely to change, as they already have their strings nicely put together in full.

[Battlehawke]

Perhaps if it takes a ton of resources and a serious amount of time to make those uber items that people are referring to as The End of Ebberon as We Know It, then it won't be so horrible...

[patang01]

Perhaps if it takes a ton of resources and a serious amount of time to make those uber items that people are referring to as The End of Ebberon as We Know It, then it won't be so horrible...

I think the reason why people object is because deconstructing gives you trivial amounts and that you can buy the mats in the store.

There has to be a balance of time and effort for anyone who want to do this in game as suppose to take a short cut and buy themselves crafting levels.

[Alanim]

how about instead of crafting gems back into essence we can just crush the gems into the exp they would have given? I think that would still give the result they want, while not having to run back and to craft it onto a blank, remove the effect, then craft it back on it 100 times.

[phalaeo]

I agree that the number of materials needed to level up is too great. Either the system needs to give back more via deconstruction, or the recipes need to cost less.

I'm not looking for an easy button- after doing some math with my BF and trying it out, it will be an insane grind once it goes live.

I enjoyed it, but that's with 4K "Llama" TP worth of crafting mats put in. I can't imagine getting all those materials through weapon deconstuction in a time-frame anywhere near fun.

[SirShen]

Any comment on whether the ingredients in the store are simply to speed up previewing on Lamannia, or if we should expect to see them on Live?

A lot of my balance concerns rest on the answer to this question.

That, and silver shouldn't be essentially free, given how much potency it adds to some weapons.

If an item is made of silver why should it be taken off? Its part of the base item. Its not free. Just like Darkwood bows ect. The base item is made of it.

[NaturalMystik]

I does seem like the number of items required to deconstruct is too great. It does make sense that you would need a few items to create a desired effect, eg not 1 paralyzer but maybe like 10+...

In any case as someone mentioned it seems like you either have to make a choice between selling your items for plat, versus deconstructing them for crafting. Now, if you could become a master crafter and earn an income off your trade that could help offset the income loss a little from not vendoring... For example if people could hire you to make items, or you could sell top notch items on the AH. I understand that you can sell/trade shards, so that's something, but if you could also sell/trade finished items that would be pretty cool and might help to justify the time and loss of income from building a master crafter. Be a pauper today, but have some increased earning capacity down the road from your trade...

[doubledge]

so crafting xp doesn't reset upon tring? great! i actually have a reason to tr after update 9 then. can i get some conformation?

[dkyle]

If an item is made of silver why should it be taken off? Its part of the base item. Its not free. Just like Darkwood bows ect. The base item is made of it.

Because it's hugely imbalanced that the difference between +4 Holy and +4 Holy Silver is negligible given the massive difference in potency of those two weapons. It's simply bad design.

Silver weapons (except wraps) are so common that Silver might as well be free.

If taking the Silver off bothers you so much, add an extra cost to disjuncting Silver weapons. Just say that disjuncting weapons with special materials is exceptionally difficult.

[steelblueskies]

so crafting xp doesn't reset upon tring? great! i actually have a reason to tr after update 9 then. can i get some conformation?

tr'ed saturday, exp and levels of craft skill stayed. got exp grant back to 20 sunday(thank you thoon), now if i can just get someone to sticky this info in this subforum.

[doubledge]

tr'ed saturday, exp and levels of craft skill stayed. got exp grant back to 20 sunday(thank you thoon), now if i can just get someone to sticky this info in this subforum.

thank you so much for conformation. +1

[dragonofsteel]

The newbie won't be making a +4 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane anytime soon, correct.

They might, however, be able to craft a +3 Holy Silver Khopesh of Lawful Outsider Bane in a reasonable timeframe (we'll need to see on that). That weapon will out-DPS a Mineral 2 against Elite Horoth. Or even if that is out of the question, they should at least be able to craft a +2 Silver Khopesh of Righteousness (which will break DR post-U9) to use for a while.

Not sure if every be able to craft a +4 holy burst lower then 20th level p..
Reading the + on the shards for a item like that it equals 13,
Dont know if the read out is bugged but look it up last night I did.

+4 holy burst
+4 greater bane
+5 + weapon
13 total= 1 for first 24 for next twelve from what I can tell so far. I hope this a bug and we can make weapons at +4 or that just listed wrong when look up through the machine.

Even if make it +11 that would make it 21 level weapon under the current addition in the system. +5 weapons have min. lvl 9 current.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Because it's hugely imbalanced that the difference between +4 Holy and +4 Holy Silver is negligible given the massive difference in potency of those two weapons. It's simply bad design.

Silver weapons (except wraps) are so common that Silver might as well be free.

If taking the Silver off bothers you so much, add an extra cost to disjuncting Silver weapons. Just say that disjuncting weapons with special materials is exceptionally difficult.

This is completely way way way off......the metal a weapon/armor/accessory is made of is by no means at ALL a magical property and SHOULD NOT be stripped.

Silver, Byeshk, Mithral, etc is much more rare than standard items.

It's complete luck if you happen to get an item made of a rare metal...I suppose next you'll say the person that gets the rare loot they want from quests very quickly because they are lucky should have it taken away from them because it unbalances the game.

Okay....that said and no longer replying to this quote, I think the crafting system works well now, I really do not think it was meant to be a way to REPLACE rare and powerful loot but rather a different and extra option to get nice gear. I think it's really meant to be done more casually so as you go along your merry way questing you can do something interesting with your vendor trash instead of just cashing it in.

Now for the new players....wow...cry me a river....with the addition of hirelings and dungeon scaling this game no longer comes close to the plight of the new player back in the day...seriously how much plat do you really need these days to level a first life toon even a 28 point from 1-20......not much at all.

If you find yourself that desperate for potions and extra coin then break barrels.

Honestly I think a lot of this is being viewed from level 20 or soon to be TR'ed toons who want their new toys and want them now.

I would think coming from the perspective of a new player this would be a nice addition. They do not drool over the +4 holy burst silver khopesh of greater lawful outsider bane which seems to almost be what everyone is basing this whole discussion around.......what can be made to quickly replace raid, rare, epic items through crafting as quickly as possible. Rare loot can take a very long time to get...why should craftable loot of the same power be any different?

To me I think a lot of people jumped the gun about how the system was going to be from the PAX interview.....I mean come on....everything super powerful in any MMO including this one is time consuming.

IMO...this is just another option......it's not meant to be an easy button to replace acquiring "raid-like" loot in a quicker manner.

Flame away

[Valakai]

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

The store only blank trinket, OTOH, is very poor form.

Was this not like 5TP? I see this coming up a lot and I'm like 5TP. Seriously 5....and people complain because....you get 5 tp from running quests in no time. I do not mean to offend anyone but I just dont get it.

I'm bothered that you basically have to buy a crafting bag to do any serious crafting, but ok. Turbine put in a good crafting system and I'm prepared to pay 5 bucks to participate. (about 500TP)

[Arctigis]

I used a silver greatsword from the store - which is craftable - and created:

+4 Holy Silver Blessed Greatsword of Lawful Outsider Bane. Decent devil boss beater I guess (effectively 6d6 + 6
I think). It's ML15 in case anyone is interested.

[netops]

Personally I thing the crafting system has a lot to offer.

Suddenly +1 items with a rare metal/guild slot suddenly become more valuable. This means that newbie’s (who are given a little guidance) can sell the on the AH to give them some starting cash.

Much like the discussions over wealth the argument for crafting would be not to worry about it till you hit GH and above and you are getting inundated with vendor trash weapons. In the meantime newbie’s should be able to sell on more low-level vendor trash/good crafting items and in general be richer for it.

For vets it introduces an element of choice for their vendor trash items.
- Vendor them as you do now.
- Deconstruct them for crafting
- AH/Sell ‘good’ crafting items (metal/guild/highlevel prefix/suffix items)

A +1 adamantine ghost touch khopesh of lesser construct bane can now provide a good khopesh blank, crafting materials or some cash.

The reduction in the amount of trash weapons sold, along with the increase in AH trade will be a huge plat sink and redress the U8 plat boost.

Finally when the rare DR beaters and perfect twink weapons can be crafted their value will drop, meaning that a newbie may be able to afford to buy the occasional half decent weapon/item.

The plat rich can strip the vendors/AH for raw materials, the TP rich can buy there way to success and the time rich can farm/grind their materials. If you don’t fit into those categories you benefit from the economic boost and sell to the plat rich and buy your crafted items.

Whilst I would love to see craftable trinkets as a rare drop, currently they are almost the same as half-elves or monks; readily available to VIPs, affordable to premium players and difficult to obtain if you aren’t giving turbine any cash what-so-ever.

This is a big change and almost everyone will loose out in one way or another, but overall I think this will be a big plus to the game.

[The_Phenx]

Thanks for all the feedback - it's very helpful. The balance is still a work-in-progress. If you think it's stingy now, you should have seen it last week. :-)

How about not selling top tier gear for money. We told you this would happen years ago when the store first came out.

You have done a fairly good job at avoiding it so far, but this just goes too far.

There is a reason that people that play the game more have better things.

Against the giant swipe my credit card easy win button

SO I guess the point of the game now wont be about getting gear... its sure as hell not about end game content... so that leaves me with what reason to play anymore?

[MadFloyd]

How about not selling top tier gear for money. We told you this would happen years ago when the store first came out.

You have done a fairly good job at avoiding it so far, but this just goes too far.

There is a reason that people that play the game more have better things.

Against the giant swipe my credit card easy win button

SO I guess the point of the game now wont be about getting gear... its sure as hell not about end game content... so that leaves me with what reason to play anymore?

We're selling top tier gear for money now? Not to my knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something though - my thread skimming skills vary from day to day.

[bradleyforrest]

We're selling top tier gear for money now? Not to my knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something though - my thread skimming skills vary from day to day.

What people are saying is that they can buy everything needed to make top tier loot with the new crafting system. Also, the fact that the trinket is store only doesn't help your position.

[Arctigis]

What people are saying is that they can buy everything needed to make top tier loot with the new crafting system. Also, the fact that the trinket is store only doesn't help your position.

You still need collectibles. Turning the question on it's head, what do you expect to be for sale in the store?
Just content, cosmetics and the like?. Personally, I like the store making available materials which obviate grinding
content. All the crafting materials seem to be available from loot or from deconstructing items. All the store is
doing is providing a short cut to those whose time is worth more to them than the $ replacement. They do have
balance issues with this IMO but the fundamental principle is sound.