Suggestion: clean up level 4 spells

[sephiroth1084]

So, I was thinking on the way to work today that some spell levels are still really overloaded with goodies, while others are a bit weaker. In particular, level 4is really troubling me. It has 3 of a Fire Savant's best 4 or 5 spells (Fire Shield, Burning Blood and Wall of Fire), 3 of an Earth Savant's best 4-6 spells (Acid Rain, Burning Blood and Stoneskin), a Pale Master's 2 core spells (Negative Energy Burst and Death Aura) the only AoE DoT cold spell (Ice Storm), the last actual force spell (Force Missiles), and several other very useful spells, at least a few of which are without parallel (Dimension Door, Fire Shield, Crushing Despair--probably the best AoE debuff we'll have to set-up other spells--and Enervation).

It's probably more crowded than any other spell level, and has the best AoE DoTs in 3 elements despite the presence of similar spells of higher level.

My suggestions:

• Reduce the improvement to Acid Rain and boost Acid Fog instead, which is a spell 2 levels higher, yet still seems to be quite a bit weaker.
• Move Burning Blood to level 5. That way Earth, Fire, Air and Water all have a single-target DoT at that level (Burning Blood, Eladar's Electric Surge and Niac's Biting Cold).
• Move Negative Energy Burst to level 5 to fill in some of the spell progression for a Pale Master.
• Add some sort of electric AoE DoT at level 4 to give the 4 main elements each an AoE DoT at that level.
• Start selling Dimension Door scrolls at vendors.

[Rawel_San]

/signed soo much

[sephiroth1084]

I should note that I think it's kind of odd for the really good AoE DoT spells to be at level 4, while the really good single target DoTs are a level later, though I think it's far too late to move firewall to a later level.

[bradleyforrest]

/signed

[SynalonEtuul]

I don't know, I'd prefer it if all the spell levels had such difficult choices, rather than spreading them around a bit.

[Fennario]

I do like the idea personally, but I don't think it should happen.

You will have those players who built multiclassed casters that stopped taking caster levels after they got their level 4 spells... probably rare builds, but they're out there.

Also, part of playing a caster is picking out spells that go along with the way your build plays. Level 4 spells make for some rough choices to be sure, but that's just the way it is. Its particularly tough on sorcs, but to make it so that they can fit in all the "good" spells would take away some of the advantage for playing a wizard.

Just my opinion.

[sephiroth1084]

I don't know, I'd prefer it if all the spell levels had such difficult choices, rather than spreading them around a bit.

Well, level 4 would still be tough. You've still got firewall, Ice Storm, Stoneskin, DDoor, Fire Shield, Acid Rain, Crushing Despair, Enervation, Solid Fog (maybe worth taking, maybe not), Death Aura and a couple of other decent spells.

I do like the idea personally, but I don't think it should happen.

You will have those players who built multiclassed casters that stopped taking caster levels after they got their level 4 spells... probably rare builds, but they're out there.

Which spells did I suggest moving that these builds were looking to be using? No one was built to get Burning Blood before. Firewall is still there.

Also, part of playing a caster is picking out spells that go along with the way your build plays. Level 4 spells make for some rough choices to be sure, but that's just the way it is. Its particularly tough on sorcs, but to make it so that they can fit in all the "good" spells would take away some of the advantage for playing a wizard.

Just my opinion.

I agree that there should be tough choices, but the way they are stacked currently just makes it a stupidly difficult level. Too many of the best spells were in lvl 4 before they improved a bunch of them! It also looks like poor design when a couple of savants basically are locked into a bunch of spell choices at one level, and relatively free at every other level, whereas others aren't quite so constrained. Mind you, I don't play a sorcerer, but this is still an important point.

Also, even with the new spells and buffed spells, level 5 is still pretty weak, in that there are 2-4 spells you can safely take without fear of losing out on something really valuable.

[Cadveen]

I made a note of this in another thread....all they would have to do is allow lower level spells to take the spots of spell slots of higher level spells. I too wish that level four spells were more spaced out. I play a pale master that focuses soley on dc. I wouldnt mind being able to carry..fear, contagion, curse, death aura, neg energy burst...and dim door...i cant even load all of the necro spells while still having dim door and firewall. I think it would build versatility by allowing us to trade out higher level spell slots with lower ones. Just a thought.

[dameron]

Some of this would go away if we could select lower level spells with higher level slots, as is allowed in PnP.

[sephiroth1084]

That would be a much more difficult change to implement, and would have other ramifications. For one, as good as some of the spells have gotten, it would likely result in levels 5 and 8 becoming the floating spots for lower level spells. At one time I would have been in favor of this, but I don't really think it would improve DDO at this point.

[donfilibuster]

Some possible options:

1. Make adjustments as OP says, those suggestions look good enough altough i'd prefer any other option to merely changing the spell levels of D&D spells.

2. Let us purchase more scrolls, e.g. ddoor scrools maybe fairly safe to have now.

3. Expand the spell selection by having more spells. This seems the best option to stay true to D&D.
A lot of the wizards power comes from having lots of spells to choose, and DDO only has a small list.
There's plenty of nice and useful spells to choose from PnP, be it from core or supplements.

4. Implement the ability to fill higher spell slots with lower spells.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...zardSpellSlots

Spell Slots

The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

This is usually obviated or ignored because in PnP there's usually plenty of spells to choose at each level.
It is rather intended for low magic settings where a wizard may not have high int nor a lot of spells in his spellbook.
Finding high level ones might be rare, but this is not the case on high magic worlds and helps allocating the spells you actually need.

[Battlehawke]

..sounds like you are in the right direction.

[fuzzy1guy]

My suggestions:

• Reduce the improvement to Acid Rain and boost Acid Fog instead, which is a spell 2 levels higher, yet still seems to be quite a bit weaker.
• Move Burning Blood to level 5. That way Earth, Fire, Air and Water all have a single-target DoT at that level (Burning Blood, Eladar's Electric Surge and Niac's Biting Cold).
• Move Negative Energy Burst to level 5 to fill in some of the spell progression for a Pale Master.
• Add some sort of electric AoE DoT at level 4 to give the 4 main elements each an AoE DoT at that level.
• Start selling Dimension Door scrolls at vendors.

/signed

[Infant]

While I rather like that we have to make choices in spell selection, the level 4 spell slots would be too few after U9. This would affect many Savant combinations or choices of AM specialization. Having to leave out few of your most important/efficient spells would suck.

/signed

Infant

Edit: Isn't Solid Fog lvl 4 spell and a possible Reflex debuff now?

[bryanmeerkat]

Totaly and utterly disagree .

Please devs get working to making all spell levels as crowded and difficult to decide on your spell choices as lv 4 is .

[Infant]

Totaly and utterly disagree .

Please devs get working to making all spell levels as crowded and difficult to decide on your spell choices as lv 4 is .

If they implement alternatives at higher levels for lvl 4 spells for given build choices AND crowd higher level spells, then agree. But right now they made Acid and Ice (and Force) more viable to spec for. But then, imagine a Acid/Fire specced PM:

Death Aura
Burning Blood
Stoneskin
Acid Rain
WoF
DDoor
Crushing Despair
Solid Fog
Fire Shield
Negative Energy Burst

are all nice spells now. 10 of them. For 5 spell slots (for a wizzie, at lvl 14!). I know that DDoor is not necessary and you don't need Solid Fog/Crushing Despair and you can decide either WoF or Acid Rain and Stoneskin can be wand-cast (but it´s much better self-cast now ). And I know that I mentioned one special build choice. But moving Burning Blood to the other DoTs and DDoor to scroll vendors would make it a bit easier and still leave choices to make. At least its something worth pointing out for the devs to consider, IMHO.

Infant

P.S.: For an Earth Savant with fire as off-spec the choices are also tight btw.

[bryanmeerkat]

Death Aura
Burning Blood
Stoneskin
Acid Rain
WoF
DDoor
Crushing Despair
Solid Fog
Fire Shield
Negative Energy Burst

are all nice spells now. 10 of them. For 5 spell slots (for a wizzie, at lvl 14!).

You are supposed to have to make choices , its part of the game . Just because there are finally enough options to make more than one obvious set of spells dosent mean that you should have the ability to use them all .

Wizards now have to choose the most appropriate spells for the quest they are doing and sorc's have to try and make a spell list that can get them through any situation which may come up .

PM have a few key spell components they require and that is part of the cost of being a palemaster . Pay the price or go a different route .

[Infant]

You are supposed to have to make choices , its part of the game . Just because there are finally enough options to make more than one obvious set of spells dosent mean that you should have the ability to use them all .

Wizards now have to choose the most appropriate spells for the quest they are doing and sorc's have to try and make a spell list that can get them through any situation which may come up .

PM have a few key spell components they require and that is part of the cost of being a palemaster . Pay the price or go a different route .

I see your point. That's more of a fundametal game decision for the devs to make. Allow arcanes to fullfil different roles at the same time or force them to make decisions -- between good choices as you pointed out.

Infant

P.S.: This could make DDoor a bard's duty. And at least CC/healing specced bards have other bread-and-butter spells at this level to take.

[quityourjobs]

P.S.: This could make DDoor a bard's duty. And at least CC/healing specced bards have other bread-and-butter spells at this level to take.

I've never met a Bard that doesn't have Ddoor.

[Infant]

I've never met a Bard that doesn't have Ddoor.

FoM, CCW, DDoor, Hold Monster, Sphere of Dancing and Break Enchantment which could be considered useful, or am I missing something? You will be able to fit in 5 of these 6 at level 18. I agree, one could drop Break enchantment.

Infant