Suggestion: clean up level 4 spells

[sephiroth1084]

You are supposed to have to make choices , its part of the game . Just because there are finally enough options to make more than one obvious set of spells dosent mean that you should have the ability to use them all .

Wizards now have to choose the most appropriate spells for the quest they are doing and sorc's have to try and make a spell list that can get them through any situation which may come up .

PM have a few key spell components they require and that is part of the cost of being a palemaster . Pay the price or go a different route .

There is a difference between hard choices and excessive stacking of spells at a particular spell level. Level 4 was a hard choice before they went and buffed a bunch of spells and gave characters strong reasons to be picking some of these other ones. Moving the spells I suggested doesn't make level 4 spells not a hard choice, but brings the level of choice closer to that of your other spell levels.

Also, there isn't much choice involved for Pale Masters and some Savants who have multiple primary spells all shoved into level 4, with few spells spread elsewhere. PMs have no hard choice to make anywhere else, really, except level 6. Fire Savants have kind of a tough choice at level 7, but that's really it. Earth Savants don't really have a tough choice anywhere else, since Acid Fog didn't get buffed (unless it stacks with Acid Rain), but that isn't as difficult to work out. Meanwhile, Water and Air Savants don't really have any levels as crowded as 4 is for everyone else. Five is a little tough for them, but it has fewer good choices so it isn't too bad.

This changes level 4 from being the inexplicably most difficult spell level to make decisions on, to be slightly harder than most other levels, while making level 5 more difficult and closer to being in line with the other spell levels.

Currently, fire gets its best AoE DoT, it's only single target DoT and one of the best defensive spells in the game; earth gets it's best single target and AoE DoTs and one of the only two spells to benefit from the savant's increases caster level for earth spells; PMs get their two primary healing spells; water gets its only AoE DoT.

For everyone else, this would still be a tough level, choosing four or five of Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, Dimension Door, Acid Rain, Stoneskin, Ice Storm, Enervation, Solid Fog, Crushing Despair, and a few other lesser, but still useful spells.

[mel]

/not signed concerning DD

We got vendor DD scrolls at some point and it was changed for a reason. DD is too much good to be given free. This is a spell you have to pay for, to make some sacrifice for, not just a free spell like ability for everyone.

[sephiroth1084]

Another important point: Mantle of Invulnerability

Currently there 3(?) bosses that are immune to level 4 and below spells, and one immune to level 8 and below: the giant skeleton at the end of Madstone, the Abbot and Sulu; and Epic Raiyum respectively.

Earth Savants have only one spell to use on the first 3--Acid Fog, which appears to have not gotten buffed--and none to use on Raiyum. Moving Burning Blood to level 5 and buffing Acid Fog gives them some spells to use on the first three bosses, but they still have nothing that benefits from most of their class features to use on Raiyum, which is a problem. Meteor Swarm works, but doesn't gain much from the Savant.

Air Savants have no spells to use on Raiyum tied to their element.

Fire and Acid lose 2 of their spells vs. 2 major bosses (Firewall and Burning Blood, and Acid Rain and Burning Blood respectively), while Water loses 1 (Ice Storm) and Air doesn't really lose any.

[sillyguyjim]

Another important point: Mantle of Invulnerability

Currently there 3(?) bosses that are immune to level 4 and below spells, and one immune to level 8 and below: the giant skeleton at the end of Madstone, the Abbot and Sulu; and Epic Raiyum respectively.

Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

If Heighten was functioning properly per the SRD, these mantles would be ineffective. As the metamagic system is broken now with spell cost optimizations, implementing higher level spell slots for lower levels spells would open up some new options with other metamagics as well. From a development standpoint I can see why they designed the system as it currently is, but making the right change now will lead to easier developments in the future.

[sephiroth1084]

If Heighten was functioning properly per the SRD, these mantles would be ineffective. As the metamagic system is broken now with spell cost optimizations, implementing higher level spell slots for lower levels spells would open up some new options with other metamagics as well. From a development standpoint I can see why they designed the system as it currently is, but making the right change now will lead to easier developments in the future.

It probably would, but that is a separate issue. I merely brought up this additional point upon realizing its impact while reading another thread. My original points in suggesting this change remain just as valid (or invalid if you disagreed before), just with another reason to make the change in regards to these bosses.

[FooWonk]

/signed

[FooWonk]

Re: dimension door

/not signed

[Cahira]

I've never met a Bard that doesn't have Ddoor.

I never carried it on any of my bards until they took D-Door out of the vendors. And even then, I just bought a couple hundred scrolls of it and kept casting it off of scroll until the level cap went up such that I got that 5th lvl 4 spell.

And if bards had more spells to select from, I wouldn't have it now. I would still be using my hoarded scrolls. I think that my type of thinking is what they are trying to avoid.

However, my thinking also says that bards have **** for spell selection, especially in lvl 6 spells.

uhm...sorry.../tangent.

[quityourjobs]

FoM, CCW, DDoor, Hold Monster, Sphere of Dancing and Break Enchantment which could be considered useful, or am I missing something? You will be able to fit in 5 of these 6 at level 18. I agree, one could drop Break enchantment.

Infant

Break Enchantment would be one of the last ones I'd drop on my Bard.

Any Bard who cares about casting Hold Monster or Sphere of Dancing will have enough spell slots to take everything they need, including DDoor.

Deeper splashes have fewer slots, but don't take any of the CC spells because they have absolutely no hope of landing them, especially in the U9 environment.

[bkasavan]

If Heighten was functioning properly per the SRD, these mantles would be ineffective. As the metamagic system is broken now with spell cost optimizations, implementing higher level spell slots for lower levels spells would open up some new options with other metamagics as well. From a development standpoint I can see why they designed the system as it currently is, but making the right change now will lead to easier developments in the future.

For SP cost, they could keep same one (something like (5+(lv*5)) makign the leesser cost ones more expensive. for the ones with a raised cost... make it count 20 more sp then it would now.

[Infant]

Break Enchantment would be one of the last ones I'd drop on my Bard.

Any Bard who cares about casting Hold Monster or Sphere of Dancing will have enough spell slots to take everything they need, including DDoor.

Deeper splashes have fewer slots, but don't take any of the CC spells because they have absolutely no hope of landing them, especially in the U9 environment.

I understand that thing about splashes/melee bards, for them its fine. But on a pure CC/healing SS I have 5 spellslots. Spells to choose from are CCW, Hold Monster, Sphere, FoM, Break Enchantment and DDoor. Which one would you drop?

Infant

[donfilibuster]

Need more room for dimensional anchor, black tentacles, greater invisibility, rainbow pattern, animate dead, assay resistance, blistering radiance, mass resist energy, summon undead IV and oh yeah, greater floating disk

[Geonis]

I understand that thing about splashes/melee bards, for them its fine. But on a pure CC/healing SS I have 5 spellslots. Spells to choose from are CCW, Hold Monster, Sphere, FoM, Break Enchantment and DDoor. Which one would you drop?

Infant

Drop CCW, your Heal scroll should hit for more.

[Valakai]

/signed

On my wiz 12 palemaster build the spells I 100% need are death aura and negative energy burst. That leaves me with 2 choises for DD, Fireshield, Icestorm, Firewall (Fireshield I have been scrolling but its a pain, stoneskin wands are ok)

I would totally support the idea that you could learn some level 4 spells as level 5 or 6 spells....
This could be hard to implement but it would be a really nice change.

And while we are at it. Dont forget to give us wizzies some way of getting the new 5th level spells pweeees.

[Raiderone]

So, I was thinking on the way to work today that some spell levels are still really overloaded with goodies, while others are a bit weaker. In particular, level 4is really troubling me. It has 3 of a Fire Savant's best 4 or 5 spells (Fire Shield, Burning Blood and Wall of Fire), 3 of an Earth Savant's best 4-6 spells (Acid Rain, Burning Blood and Stoneskin), a Pale Master's 2 core spells (Negative Energy Burst and Death Aura) the only AoE DoT cold spell (Ice Storm), the last actual force spell (Force Missiles), and several other very useful spells, at least a few of which are without parallel (Dimension Door, Fire Shield, Crushing Despair--probably the best AoE debuff we'll have to set-up other spells--and Enervation).

It's probably more crowded than any other spell level, and has the best AoE DoTs in 3 elements despite the presence of similar spells of higher level.

My suggestions:

• Reduce the improvement to Acid Rain and boost Acid Fog instead, which is a spell 2 levels higher, yet still seems to be quite a bit weaker.
• Move Burning Blood to level 5. That way Earth, Fire, Air and Water all have a single-target DoT at that level (Burning Blood, Eladar's Electric Surge and Niac's Biting Cold).
• Move Negative Energy Burst to level 5 to fill in some of the spell progression for a Pale Master.
• Add some sort of electric AoE DoT at level 4 to give the 4 main elements each an AoE DoT at that level.
• Start selling Dimension Door scrolls at vendors.

1)No to nerfing Acid Rain. In fact I would like it to be longer 8secs isnt long enough.
Cast that 4 times and it's cost way exceeds FW. Make Acid Rain 12secs or 15secs.
Too bad Acid Fog couldn't decrease Reflex saves just like Solid Fog.

2)Sounds good to me. Or let Caster fill Spell slot, one level lower. Basically a Heightened SPell.

3)Well sounds good but then it'll just make lvl 4 spells even harder to choose.

4)Oh Please. Just boost the cost. Maybe make it favor driven and BTA.

As far as Fire SHield, you can scroll it just as effectively. Not much difference between scroll and lvl 20 caster with no EXTEND.

You can do the same thing with Prot from Elements Lvl5 spell. Just scroll it.
Only slightly lower protection and time certainly doesnt matter...

[quityourjobs]

I understand that thing about splashes/melee bards, for them its fine. But on a pure CC/healing SS I have 5 spellslots. Spells to choose from are CCW, Hold Monster, Sphere, FoM, Break Enchantment and DDoor. Which one would you drop?

Infant

Hold Monster, cause it ain't gonna land without prep spells, and by that point, it'll probably be dead.

Of course if you have a zillion DDoor scrolls around, then you have options.

[sephiroth1084]

1)No to nerfing Acid Rain. In fact I would like it to be longer 8secs isnt long enough.
Cast that 4 times and it's cost way exceeds FW. Make Acid Rain 12secs or 15secs.
Too bad Acid Fog couldn't decrease Reflex saves just like Solid Fog.

My point was that Acid Fog, the spell 2 levels higher, needs to be buffed, but probably can't be buffed enough to surpass Acid Rain in its new form due to that spell being so strong.

2)Sounds good to me. Or let Caster fill Spell slot, one level lower. Basically a Heightened SPell.

Uh...I don't mean temporarily. I mean permanently change Burning Blood to be a level 5 spell.

3)Well sounds good but then it'll just make lvl 4 spells even harder to choose.

It's rather unlikely that anyone would want or need to carry 4 AoE DoTs at level 4. Wizards, if they feel like it, can swap amongst the 2 or 3 that are useful for a given quest, but with the new elemental damage lines, I doubt anyone will have enough of a bonus to all 4 elements to want to carry firewall, Acid Rain, Ice Storm and whatever electric spell.
[/quote]

[Saravis]

Another level that needs looked at is level 6, there's quite a few very nice spells at that level and some of them could be easily bumped up to 7. With the Savants coming spell selection at that level is going to become even more difficult.

[sephiroth1084]

Another level that needs looked at is level 6, there's quite a few very nice spells at that level and some of them could be easily bumped up to 7. With the Savants coming spell selection at that level is going to become even more difficult.

I don't think 6 is any more difficult than 7. Also, there isn't the almost neat split between 6 and 7 that there is between 4 and 5 where 3 of 4 elements currently get an (their best/only) AoE DoT at 4 and 3 of 4 gain a (their best/only) single target DoT at 5.

Moving level 6 and 7 spells to 8 would help, since even with the buffing of some spells, 8 remains a pretty thin spell level. That said, I don't know what spells could be moved to 8 that would be attractive there without ruining some characters' builds dramatically.