equipment gap in lvl 14 to 20

[little_me]

as topic says, it either is or isn't there.
if we take out the event items, since they are not available to everyone, all the time. (they are not, honestly)

we are left with.... some vorpal weapons some banes and greater banes and maybe one or two sticks until you manage to run shroud odd 20 times.

possible short term fix, increase maximum bonus items can have from +5 to +10 for weapons at least. (armor is debatable)
is it overpowered? not really, i'd say. melee's hit things anyway, +5 or +10
is min level messed up? +10 plain item is.. lets see, ML 18?
is the damage boosted too much? i doubt it. +7 (ML 12) has.. well.. smaller damage/hit than +5 burst weapon. (ML12 also)

why am i asking this?
I play fighter (and thus, it's for my own benefit, really, i'm selfish)
I like seeing numbers, numbers that do NOT stop growing as i level up.
Unlike old time veterans, i have no easy access to GS upgrades. (GS, which is totally unbalanced, anyway you look at it)


or.. are only steps to increase the damage after level 10, besides the rare one or two drops (+5 holy, +5 holy burst, +5 burst this or that... WHICH are not sold, btw, so no access to them that way) greater weapon focus and superior? in addition to kensai stuff?

[Baahb3]

Most of your damage increase after the obligitory +5 on weapons come from increases to your strength or other damage sources like the Claw set from Red Fens area or the Shinto set from Amrath.

These items are and should be used to increase your damage.

Enchantements on items above +5 are epic in nature, meaning you will not, and should not see those on anything but Epic weapons.

They are already delving so far from PnP rules, no need to break this one as well.

[Bodic]

there is no gap you just have to earn it. and there is a +10 weapon its min lvl 20 and +6/+7 gear also min lvl 20

[little_me]

so.. amuse me and tell what exactly would you use on lvl 12 to 18?
assuming event gear is out of picture, due to it's "not always available" nature.
and also assuming that it should be accessible to people who have not done shroud 10's of times. (so.. 2nd or 3rd char to high mid levels)

[Teech]

Lordsmarch Plaza?

[ProdigalGuru]

Plenty of Burst weapons for sale on Ghallanda...

Same goes for: Disruptors, Banishers, Smiters, Vorpals, Paralyzers, not to mention any number of named loot items.

Your join date suggests you simply have not had enough time to amass the gear that you want/need.

It's going to take some effort on your part, however...

[Irongutz2000]

as topic says, it either is or isn't there.
if we take out the event items, since they are not available to everyone, all the time. (they are not, honestly)

we are left with.... some vorpal weapons some banes and greater banes and maybe one or two sticks until you manage to run shroud odd 20 times.

possible short term fix, increase maximum bonus items can have from +5 to +10 for weapons at least. (armor is debatable)
is it overpowered? not really, i'd say. melee's hit things anyway, +5 or +10
is min level messed up? +10 plain item is.. lets see, ML 18?
is the damage boosted too much? i doubt it. +7 (ML 12) has.. well.. smaller damage/hit than +5 burst weapon. (ML12 also)

why am i asking this?
I play fighter (and thus, it's for my own benefit, really, i'm selfish)
I like seeing numbers, numbers that do NOT stop growing as i level up.
Unlike old time veterans, i have no easy access to GS upgrades. (GS, which is totally unbalanced, anyway you look at it)


or.. are only steps to increase the damage after level 10, besides the rare one or two drops (+5 holy, +5 holy burst, +5 burst this or that... WHICH are not sold, btw, so no access to them that way) greater weapon focus and superior? in addition to kensai stuff?

/not signed
i grinded my butt off to get a +10 sword...an now u want them to hand it out for free? wow

[Gremmlynn]

IMO if having batter weapons is that important to you, you grind Shroud until you get Greensteel. If you can accept the fact that they are not necessary to beat the content, you don't sweat it. For myself, I find that the +# on a weapon, while nice if it's big, is pretty much irrelevant compared to what comes after it as long as I am hitting consistently.

[little_me]

Lordsmarch Plaza?

has nice weapons, yes. their usability as far as THF doesn't go that far though.
-blade of fury, +4 bonus, nice. con damage and more on crits? nice also.
however... if you count con damage at all similar to monsters as to players (2 con=1hp/level/dice) it is... good. averaging 5 to 9 damage/hit, depending on health of the monster. (more health, more damage due to it being higher level, presumably)
bonus is medusa fury, which raises str and con (str enhancement bonus stacks with enhancement bonuses, btw)
-Axes, some nice, some nicer. still not that different from normal weapons.

Plenty of Burst weapons for sale on Ghallanda...

Same goes for: Disruptors, Banishers, Smiters, Vorpals, Paralyzers, not to mention any number of named loot items.

Your join date suggests you simply have not had enough time to amass the gear that you want/need.

It's going to take some effort on your part, however...

besides disruptor and paralyzer, weapons need to crit hit to apply effect (banish, smite)
If we assume i have fighter, as i think i mentioned
If we also assume i've picked kensai enhancements... they are for specific weapon type. namely, i would be stupid to use BLUNT on skeletons. why? it does LESS damage on normal and hard diff, due to enhancements boosting chosen weapon.
If we assume i have also improved critical feat... we could think that 17-20 is crit range, unless i'm picking odd things as weapons. (19-20 for GA)
so, hits that do not score critical, are 75% of total, or so. non optimal weapon type, the damage/hit drops a lot making end result quite same, speed wise.

so, currently:
vorpal for any non-death immune mobs, so far nothing besides GS upgrades can match it's average damage/hit.
for some bosses, blade of fury. con damage helps there, they are healthy.
for elementals, greater elemental bane. banisher might be better but.. never seen that on good for me weapon type.
for golems, greater construct bane.

/not signed
i grinded my butt off to get a +10 sword...an now u want them to hand it out for free? wow

oh, you did? really... so.. where can you grind to get plain +10 weapon? with no other additions? last i looked, epics had OTHER bonuses also.
or not, clearly they'd be same.

also, as a side question, how many pure just +10 weapons you think you'd pull?
the minimum level would be 18, meaning it'd drop in end game quests. would level 18 to 20 people need that? possibly not. would it be worse than normal junk you pull at that level? no.
only difference is, some, who have not been lucky with items, might want one. (or +9) and some who know they have slight problems hitting, might choose +7 instead of +3 holy burst, since missing attacks don't do damage. in theory at least.


as far as i see, this would not oust epic weapons form their top shelf, they'd be still better. and while these might have slight to hit advantage over GS items (+5 vs +10) end game builds that hit on rolls of 2 and over, do not NEED extra +5 to hit. and GS is still better damage dealer.

so, the so called "work for it" gear is still better. you cannot get them (epics) easily at first. and GS takes time, which is fine.

and the gap in available gear for levels 14 to 20 still exists. after all the max level raises.

and i guess i can re-ask what i asked, since no one managed to answer yet:

so.. amuse me and tell what exactly would you use on lvl 12 to 18?
assuming event gear is out of picture, due to it's "not always available" nature.
and also assuming that it should be accessible to people who have not done shroud 10's of times. (so.. 2nd or 3rd char to high mid levels)

[diamabel]

...
why am i asking this?
I play fighter (and thus, it's for my own benefit, really, i'm selfish)
I like seeing numbers, numbers that do NOT stop growing as i level up.
Unlike old time veterans, i have no easy access to GS upgrades. (GS, which is totally unbalanced, anyway you look at it)
...

As a fighter you have a slight advantage. An additional feat at every even level. You can increase your damage by getting apropriate feats. Additionally you can train feats like stunning blow or improved trip.

As others already said. Increase your strength. With level 14+ shroud should be accessible. You can not only craft weapons from shroud, but as well other equipment too. Just have a look at the crafting planner and which item enchantments might be suitable for you playstyle/build. But it will require to run the shroud and vale quite a few times for ingredients.

[little_me]

As a fighter you have a slight advantage. An additional feat at every even level. You can increase your damage by getting apropriate feats. Additionally you can train feats like stunning blow or improved trip.

As others already said. Increase your strength. With level 14+ shroud should be accessible. You can not only craft weapons from shroud, but as well other equipment too. Just have a look at the crafting planner and which item enchantments might be suitable for you playstyle/build. But it will require to run the shroud and vale quite a few times for ingredients.

so.. which feat increases damage? yes, i have trip and stun and use them. makes fights a lot easier often. neither increases the basic damage though. stunning blow just allows auto crits.
weapon focuses? improved crits? they kind of naturally belong in "get them or suffer later on" category. which is also why i have them. (and they do increase damage dealt.)
however, you can get them by level 12 or 14 or 16, depending on the order you choose to take feats and if you are human or not. (and superior WF at 16)

that is all good, for feats. this is about equipment though. from 1 to 12 or 14, you can swap weapon to better one in 2 or 4 level intervals, usually.
from there (12) you'll be stuck with whatever you have, until 18 or 20 that you have done enough of shroud to get good GS weapon.
so, there is that gap in 12 to 20 or 14 to 20 or so. no real alternate choices.

[diamabel]

so.. which feat increases damage? yes, i have trip and stun and use them. makes fights a lot easier often. neither increases the basic damage though. stunning blow just allows auto crits.
weapon focuses? improved crits? they kind of naturally belong in "get them or suffer later on" category. which is also why i have them. (and they do increase damage dealt.)
however, you can get them by level 12 or 14 or 16, depending on the order you choose to take feats and if you are human or not. (and superior WF at 16)

that is all good, for feats. this is about equipment though. from 1 to 12 or 14, you can swap weapon to better one in 2 or 4 level intervals, usually.
from there (12) you'll be stuck with whatever you have, until 18 or 20 that you have done enough of shroud to get good GS weapon.
so, there is that gap in 12 to 20 or 14 to 20 or so. no real alternate choices.

First off
Two-weapon fighting feat line
Two-handed fighting feat line

Improved Critical
Weapon focus
Weapon Specialisation
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization

To improve your damage output you can try to flank your opponents. That has nothing to do with the weapon you currently use. It's rather a more general guideline to maximise your damage output.

Don't forget that your BAB is raised on each levelup. Not missing will help your damage oputput as well. You'll get more attacks due to higher BAB. Confirmation of critical hits will be more reliable. On top of that comes everything you invest into strength. A fighter should have less to complain than the rest of the classes when it comes to melee.

[Emili]

If we also assume i've picked kensai enhancements... they are for specific weapon type. namely, i would be stupid to use BLUNT on skeletons. why? it does LESS damage on normal and hard diff, due to enhancements boosting chosen weapon.

My fighter is a gtwf khopesh wielding kensie... a pair of lit IIs are her usual weapons then she's some dual min IIs and some greater banes, woundersm vorpals, etc... from pre-shroud era even ... yet in epics she pulls out picks and against skeles two tri-pos warhammers. Your blade does less damage due to skele dr than a blunt even when you are a slashing spec.

To be honest after IC, PA and greater weapon specialization there are not many feats for damage ... tacticals like stunning blow and improved trip help but overall is general party mob control and improvement ... what fighter actually need is some perk in realm of desirable feats - not more weaponry out there - but to poise competitive feat choice rather than seeing fighters garnering five toughness feats after making PrC reqs.

Don't forget that your BAB is raised on each levelup. Not missing will help your damage oputput as well. On top of that comes everything you invest into strength. A fighter should have less to complain than the rest of the classes when it comes to melee.

While the OP is asking for weapons - is silly - fighter dps are marked more at spurts 12, 18, 20 more than any other class.

... and I highly doubt he misses a thing. He's speaking a kensie and at level 20 we run kensie around with +70 to-hits most the time. :P

As I stated tacticals are good and he's in line for tacticals. I believe he said he's stunning blow.

All full BaB classes increase the same likewise same goes for str in every class ... what's funny here is my 3/4 builds have no issues with 'To-hit" as 99% of the mob until epic have no bloody ac - fighters and all full BaB hit on a 2.

He can look forward to kensie III (18) and capstone (20) if a pure but that's about it - the levels 12-18 are dry for fighters the enhancement system is the only place of relivance. DDO feat selection runs dry at about 14 even for a fighter while the where for other classes they pick up a steady gain past 14 in class abilities coupled with enhancements they have a smooth steady increase to abilities... fighters improve more in spurts.

[bryanmeerkat]

okay at level X you get an item that is a +5 Khopesh .
What they should do is add stuff like at level X+Y you could get a +5 Khopesh that also does some flame damage or something ......Oh wait ........

[Gremmlynn]

so.. which feat increases damage? yes, i have trip and stun and use them. makes fights a lot easier often. neither increases the basic damage though. stunning blow just allows auto crits.
weapon focuses? improved crits? they kind of naturally belong in "get them or suffer later on" category. which is also why i have them. (and they do increase damage dealt.)
however, you can get them by level 12 or 14 or 16, depending on the order you choose to take feats and if you are human or not. (and superior WF at 16)

that is all good, for feats. this is about equipment though. from 1 to 12 or 14, you can swap weapon to better one in 2 or 4 level intervals, usually.
from there (12) you'll be stuck with whatever you have, until 18 or 20 that you have done enough of shroud to get good GS weapon.
so, there is that gap in 12 to 20 or 14 to 20 or so. no real alternate choices.

Greensteel covers that gap for most players. For those who aren't established enough yet for this to be practicable, and who missed the chances to get event gear, and who can't find anything on the auction house, and who the loot gods hate. We can be content in the knowledge that, while not optimal, the stuff we are now using is still viable.

I'm sorry but I just don't see the need for gear to be added for unestablished players who have a huge dose of bad luck and still have viable options available.

[zwiebelring]

I managed to live without Shroud till lvl. 20 on my Drow TWf Trapchanter which is a build you can consider being quite gear depending and the only nuissance is to switch to most effective weapon in given situations so I have the golfbag syndrome without crafted stuff for normal questing.

The common loot is quite useful, yes there are common boni but if you are patient enough and use all available sources such like ah you will find common stuff which is almost as useful as e.g. crafted boss beaters. Of course it has its limits but crafted and epic stuff is special and should be und thus you have to earn it.

[Robai]

The main problem is that AH or brokers don't have good weapons of level 16+.

It's strange that the gap is exactly in levels 16-20.
I'm checking AH and brokers several times per day (2 weeks already) and I didn't see better weapons than I have (I have several lvl 14 weapons).
Ok, there was once a better weapon, but it cost a million.

It's not a problem to find a quite good lvl 14 weapons.
But it's very hard to buy better weapons for 16+ levels.
Check AH and you will see what I mean (just compare how many lvl 14 weapons and how many lvl 16+ weapons).

A possible reason:
- items ML 16+ drops in lvl 18+ quests, but lvl 20 players don't waste their time selling weapons in AH or brokers, because they already have enough money from grinding various stuff.

[PopeJual]

If only there were a way that we could craft weapons of our own creation where we were able to choose desired prefixes and suffixes that would add up to make a weapon with the appropriate minimum level. That would solve this problem entirely!

[sirgog]

The main issue is that when a decent but not uber min level 18 weapon drops, most people that could have looted it will have better. Much better.

Example: You run a quest and a +5 Holy Burst Rapier of Maiming drops. Min level 18. Decent weapon, with one good and one mediocre damage stat, but so far behind Greensteel weapons (even incomplete tier 2 GS) in DPS that most people would just vendor it.

On the other hand, a min level 12 +4 Holy Rapier of Maiming would be sold on the AH, as non-TRs generally won't have anything better by that level.


At high level, named items are where it is at for weapons.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

/not signed
i grinded my butt off to get a +10 sword...an now u want them to hand it out for free? wow

Seeing as how this last event gave away almost chaosblades, i would not be suprised if the next one does this lol.