Helplessness of Boss Monsters in U9?

[Infant]

Hi all,

from the new release notes for U9:

NEW: Boss monsters and raid boss monsters will no longer become helpless when one of their ability stats is reduced to zero.

Does this mean that the combination of srength-sapping, Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement no longer will be useful against red-named Beholders? Or do I missunderstand Helplessness?

Infant

[oberon131313]

Hi all,

from the new release notes for U9:



Does this mean that the combination of srength-sapping, Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement no longer will be useful against red-named Beholders? Or do I missunderstand Helplessness?

Infant

that would be my guess.

[Infant]

that would be my guess.

And then to introduce a new weapon which is strength sapping and casts restoration on you from time to time? Talking about the Axe of Famine from the new quests. Thought it would be kind of a new beholder boss tool...

Infant

[oberon131313]

And then to introduce a new weapon which is strength sapping and casts restoration on you from time to time? Talking about the Axe of Famine from the new quests. Thought it would be kind of a new beholder boss tool...

Infant

strength sapping and the other stuff will still work to reduce incoming melee damage, it just won't be broken. Red names are supposed to be difficult, reducing them to helpless isn't a challenge.

[Junts]

strength sapping and the other stuff will still work to reduce incoming melee damage, it just won't be broken. Red names are supposed to be difficult, reducing them to helpless isn't a challenge.

In particular, debuffing boss mobs with -str is great for ac types, and debuffing with -dex is great if their ac is quite high, since its -ac.

[sirgog]

In particular, debuffing boss mobs with -str is great for ac types, and debuffing with -dex is great if their ac is quite high, since its -ac.

/this.

Especially for epic rednameds.

I don't understand why this is a necessary change.
For the red-named bosses that can currently be made helpless, it's not game-breaking. Melees get to do more damage, that it is; the bosses are still active and fully capable of killing the party, it's just a little faster to dps them down. This is already "nerfed" by the helplessness change. Removing the viability this tactic entirely seems totally unnecessary.

Bah!

And I was so excited about those daxes....

Go on Live, and compare the difficulty of the Epic Demon of the Frenzied Deep with a 0 Dex, and without a 0 Dex.

Without giving him the -12 Dex it's a borderline challenging encounter. With the easy button of Strength Sapping and Waves of Exhaustion - it's trivial. Any freshly 20 characters can beat him.


Epic should be tough, not about gimmicks that make fights trivial.

[Jaid314]

awwww nuts. well, i guess i might have to reconsider my ray of enfeeblement spell now. it might still be worth it for regular beholders (especially since it's probably enlarged for free now)...

[voodoogroves]

It is somewhat less important anyway because helpless doesn't generate auto crits.

So what your wizard can reduce dude to helpless ... you can't smack him with a pair of heavy picks quite as easily any more. etc.

New tactics are good, and I'm kinda glad if they are streamlining the penalty vs. stat damage deal that was different before where one works, one doesn't, etc.

[Trillea]

It is somewhat less important anyway because helpless doesn't generate auto crits.

So what your wizard can reduce dude to helpless ... you can't smack him with a pair of heavy picks quite as easily any more. etc.

New tactics are good, and I'm kinda glad if they are streamlining the penalty vs. stat damage deal that was different before where one works, one doesn't, etc.

Streamline is good, but it should be:

Damage, drain, and enchantment debuff all stack;
0 CON = death;
0 STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA = helpless, immobile monster.

Stat damage is supposed to be the most debilitating thing you can do short of instant death.

[Infant]

Hi voodoogroves

It is somewhat less important anyway because helpless doesn't generate auto crits.

So what your wizard can reduce dude to helpless ... you can't smack him with a pair of heavy picks quite as easily any more. etc.

New tactics are good, and I'm kinda glad if they are streamlining the penalty vs. stat damage deal that was different before where one works, one doesn't, etc.

This particular question/concern was not about aoutocrits or Hold Monster from my wizzies. Didnt work on red-names anyway. It was about whether it will be possible to render the red named beholders helpless via strength-sapping, Ray of Exhaution and Enfeeblement.

And I am absolutely for new tactics. This change just removes an existing one (which maybe was too easy).

Red names are supposed to be difficult, reducing them to helpless isn't a challenge.

Yes. I was not complaining. Rather wondering if I understood the changes correctly.

The new axe is probably still a viable tool against regular beholders. But those you can hold/charm/fascinate/PK/FoD etc.

Infant

[voodoogroves]

Hi voodoogroves

This particular question/concern was not about aoutocrits or Hold Monster from my wizzies. Didnt work on red-names anyway. It was about whether it will be possible to render the red named beholders helpless via strength-sapping, Ray of Exhaution and Enfeeblement.

Maybe we use it more for different things?

I use it primarily on my wizard in things like Eye of the Titan. Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Exhaustion then the Watcher in Dreams is helpless. Now that means auto-crit, and I can smack him with a pair of heavy picks. Tomorrow I'll still need to hit him (ie, my to hit vs. his AC) and on my wizard w/o the TWF feats swinging a pair of heavy picks isn't quite as useful.

[voodoogroves]

Agree with you on the core rules.

They do need to balance it though. D&D is all about dropping some stat to zero. Spells very often let you do that in one shot. A DM can balance this in a home game with miss changes, contingencies, whatever. That's really tough to do in a format like this w/o making it seem like a direct alteration / nerf / whatever.

[grodon9999]

If that's the case they should remove the immunity from purple-names.

[Trillea]

If that's the case they should remove the immunity from purple-names.

They should. But at the same time, give boss monsters minions that heal them, remove stat damage (instead of giving them auto-regen, which should be MUCH more rare), and dispel DOTs. Once you kill/disable the minions the boss would become much easier, and CC-based casters would have stuff to do during major boss battles. Remember that 1 greater restoration spell removes ALL stat damage from its target.

[Crazyfruit]

Woohoo, free inventory space!

Now I can sell all my Waves of Exhaustion & Symbol greensteel clickies I crafted, strength sapping weapons, and DQ Raid wands... well, I'll probably keep the wands.

(Yes, I know they still barely lower ac, to hit, damage & stuff... not worth the effort IMO unless I'm fighting the new invasion boss or a marilith)

Devs, why remove strategies instead of boosting the stats of monsters you don't want affected? IIRC the only encounters it made significantly easier were a couple beholders and bosses in OOB, Von 2 & Von 3... and there's lame AI breaking tactics for each of those encounters most people on Orien insist on using. For almost everything else it was just "cool" & DPS usually killed them faster than the effort it took to drop their stats & get a symbol/strength sap through their saves even with manyshot.

Though the raid boss thing in there... hm... that's some I didn't know about :| They should definitely be immune to helpless. Is "boss monster" just red or oranged named too?

0 CON = death

Used to happen. Wraiths were feared. Wounding of Puncturing was the flavor of the day. And cloudkill actually killed stuff.

[Trillea]

Used to happen. Wraiths were feared. Wounding of Puncturing was the flavor of the day.

I know this, it should have never changed.

[kernal42]

I don't understand why this is a necessary change.
For the red-named bosses that can currently be made helpless, it's not game-breaking. Melees get to do more damage, that it is; the bosses are still active and fully capable of killing the party, it's just a little faster to dps them down. This is already "nerfed" by the helplessness change. Removing the viability this tactic entirely seems totally unnecessary.

Bah!

And I was so excited about those daxes....

[oberon131313]

I don't understand why this is a necessary change.
For the red-named bosses that can currently be made helpless, it's not game-breaking. Melees get to do more damage, that it is; the bosses are still active and fully capable of killing the party, it's just a little faster to dps them down. This is already "nerfed" by the helplessness change. Removing the viability this tactic entirely seems totally unnecessary.

Bah!

And I was so excited about those daxes....

the bosses that this tended to affect were usually spell casters, and helplessness prevented spell casting, so no, they couldn't kill the party.

[Infant]

the bosses that this tended to affect were usually spell casters, and helplessness prevented spell casting, so no, they couldn't kill the party.

This.

As stated, I had beholders in mind...

Infant

[oberon131313]

This.

As stated, I had beholders in mind...

Infant

it will still work on all the same mobs, just red names will no longer be helpless.