Archmage Speciality Spells

[Racalin]

Hiya All

Been runnin around and testing Wizard and spells being an Archmage.

Looking over the enhancements and spell costs.

With the lowering of spells I noticed alot of the speciality spells are no longer a Plus to to take, especially when you have have to spend 50 to 125 of your mana to get the spell.

One in particular is the Cyclonic Blast, cost you 125 mana to cast at 15 mana, if you look now the spell cost cost 15 mana to cast naturally now.

Use to be about 1/3 the cost to be a personal spell, now its the same. Have not looked at all the differences in the other schools, but the ones I did there are some there in the same shape.

This further enhances Wizards to go PM after this update if this stays the same. Yes Archamges will have more mana, but some of the abilites of the PM over come this.

[Infant]

Hiya All

Been runnin around and testing Wizard and spells being an Archmage.

Looking over the enhancements and spell costs.

With the lowering of spells I noticed alot of the speciality spells are no longer a Plus to to take, especially when you have have to spend 50 to 125 of your mana to get the spell.

One in particular is the Cyclonic Blast, cost you 125 mana to cast at 15 mana, if you look now the spell cost cost 15 mana to cast naturally now.

Use to be about 1/3 the cost to be a personal spell, now its the same. Have not looked at all the differences in the other schools, but the ones I did there are some there in the same shape.

This further enhances Wizards to go PM after this update if this stays the same. Yes Archamges will have more mana, but some of the abilites of the PM over come this.

Yes, but you can still maximize+empower+heighten the SLA Cyclonic Blast for free. The regular spell not so. Thats 15+25+15+20=75 sp compared to 15 sp.

Infant

[hityawithastick]

Yes, but you can still maximize+empower+heighten the SLA Cyclonic Blast for free. The regular spell not so. Thats 15+25+15+20=75 sp compared to 15 sp.

Infant

This.

While pale masters are still better, archmage remains a viable flavor choice.

[Infant]

While pale masters are still better, archmage remains a viable flavor choice.

Do I get it right? Besides the SLA´s of n AM, if a PM manages to work in SF:Ench and GSF:Ench, he will aquire the same Enchantment DCs as an AM while in Vampire Form? And only 1 less while in Lich Form?

Infant

[Jaid314]

Do I get it right? Besides the SLA´s of n AM, if a PM manages to work in SF:Ench and GSF:Ench, he will aquire the same Enchantment DCs as an AM while in Vampire Form? And only 1 less while in Lich Form?

Infant

quite likely 1-2 better in vampire form, and equal or 1 better in lich form.

it really depends... a lot of archmages are WF and don't drink yugoloth potions. a lot of pale masters are fleshy races that get either 1 or 2 points more of int (either is enough to get a higher max modifier, provided you have the gear), and most will be drinking yugoloth potions because honestly, why not? that's worth +3 to +4 int, which is worth potentially +2 DC over a WF that doesn't drink yugo pots.

that said, if there is a fleshy archmage that drinks yugoloth potions, then that archmage will be able to match the enchant DC of a pale master in vampire form, and beat the enchant DC of a pale master in lich form by 1. but that's gonna be pretty rare i'm guessing.

[Infant]

quite likely 1-2 better in vampire form, and equal or 1 better in lich form.

it really depends... a lot of archmages are WF and don't drink yugoloth potions. a lot of pale masters are fleshy races that get either 1 or 2 points more of int (either is enough to get a higher max modifier, provided you have the gear), and most will be drinking yugoloth potions because honestly, why not? that's worth +3 to +4 int, which is worth potentially +2 DC over a WF that doesn't drink yugo pots.

that said, if there is a fleshy archmage that drinks yugoloth potions, then that archmage will be able to match the enchant DC of a pale master in vampire form, and beat the enchant DC of a pale master in lich form by 1. but that's gonna be pretty rare i'm guessing.

Is there any point at all going Ench.specced AM once at cap now?

Infant

[hityawithastick]

Is there any point at all going Ench.specced AM once at cap now?

Infant

Free hypnotism!

[Cartheron]

Looking at how hypnotism was nerfed, I am not conviced if it is still such an advantage

[Lycurgus]

it really depends... a lot of archmages are WF and don't drink yugoloth potions.

It would be interesting to see some numbers which support this claim. The only wizards I've encountered of either flavor that don't use yugo pots are those who don't have the necessary favor.

[Infant]

Looking at how hypnotism was nerfed, I am not conviced if it is still such an advantage

At least its a free AoE will save debuff.

Infant

[Khellendros13]

Let's cut the theory and just state current DC's?

My WF Archmage, first life, +3int tome, +1int shrine and +7int item was 42dc on Enchantment with a Yugo pot.

Final life eating his +4int tome and our new +2 int shrine and past life feat pushes him to 44dc.

Yes a PM can match that, or beat it by +1 as a Drow, but at the cost of 2 feats. They also will not get 3sp dances or 1sp -3 will save AoE, or 3sp webs.

[steelblueskies]

and again there's the sp pool size disparity to consider as well. archmage without investing into sla's will have a substantially higher pool, and even taking school specializations will still be beyond an archmagi item greater in sp pool size simply from the AM line itself. for those of us not addicted to sp potions this is a consideration, further compunded by exactly what we are going up against, and therefore by what we must put the weight of our sp pool into throwing out there.

[Killdaelf]

Let's cut the theory and just state current DC's?

My WF Archmage, first life, +3int tome, +1int shrine and +7int item was 42dc on Enchantment with a Yugo pot.

Final life eating his +4int tome and our new +2 int shrine and past life feat pushes him to 44dc.

Yes a PM can match that, or beat it by +1 as a Drow, but at the cost of 2 feats. They also will not get 3sp dances or 1sp -3 will save AoE, or 3sp webs.

Ok assuming we have the same gear/buffs
Your WF AM had to take Mental toughness
swapping tham MT for focus enchantment my drow palemaster on vampire form has the same DC and also full fortification and all the othe palemaster benefits

But that`s not really the point of the topic.


The problem is that 90% of the Archmage SLA are useless.
They never were top notch, but with all the changes now it`s just painfull; AM definitely needs an overhaul

[BodenDDO]

Near free heightened web would like a word with you. That alone makes AM more attractive than PM in my opinion. Sure PM is now about equal, but when it comes to epic mobs that can't be held, you know everyone turns to web.

With the changes to helplessness, and epic MOB hp, web becomes an even more viable means of CCing entire epics.

[Aashrym]

Looking at how hypnotism was nerfed, I am not conviced if it is still such an advantage

It's still a worthwhile ability for 1 SP cost. Paying full SP for a heightened hypnotism seems like a very bad idea, but 1 SP is fine for what it does. That's like a cheap freebee +3 DC's for AM enchanters for some time loss.

I really don't expect to see hypno as a common place spell coming up, tho, certainly.

[Killdaelf]

Near free heightened web would like a word with you. That alone makes AM more attractive than PM in my opinion. Sure PM is now about equal, but when it comes to epic mobs that can't be held, you know everyone turns to web.

With the changes to helplessness, and epic MOB hp, web becomes an even more viable means of CCing entire epics.

Yea web + hypno and maybe dance are the reason just 90% and not 100% SLA are useless
And yet free web mean dropping the dc boost on either necro or enchantment, so mmm.....

I think everyone agrees that SLA selection needs a serious boost

[Jaid314]

Is there any point at all going Ench.specced AM once at cap now?

Infant

as has been pointed out, the same reasons as you might go enchant spec AM before the patch, if you did your research.

- spell-like abilities.
- spell points.

pale master being stronger defensively and equal in DC (or sometimes better) is not new. however, some of the archmage specialisations are quite worthwhile.

enchant, in particular, gives you hpynotism cheaply (which allows you to prep targets for other spells, and even 6 seconds of crowd control is still not that bad). it also gives you resistible dance (quickened and heightened) very cheap, which is a very nice spell for tying up loose ends.

conjuration gives you web for 3 SP, quickened and heightened.

evocation gives you the option to have quickened/empowered/maximised/enlarged magic missile and chain missiles for very cheap. again, well worth the cost. a very nice ability, and frankly much stronger dps than pale master necrotic bolt/blast combo (though also a lot more expensive to specialise in) (note: the stuff in parenthesis was moved from conjuration because i was insane when i first wrote this post, apparently :P )

i don't consider it a *bad* idea to be an archmage. it's a perfectly good PrE, and it definitely has it's strengths. just don't be fooled into thinking it's a good idea because it has better DCs; the strength of archmage relative to pale master was never in save DC, it was always in the spell-like abilities and the bonus SP. it has been since archmage came out.

that said, i do think the other schools of archmage, or rather the other schools of spells, could use some help, badly. the simple fact is that spammable invisibility is just nowhere near as useful as spammable hypnotism or spammable dance (spammable hypnotic pattern *would* be very useful if it was an option, except for the fact that your party will likely wish they were blind should you actually use it).

so yes, some schools could use a lot of buffing...

for illusion (which i've been using as an example so far), color spray (as the level 1 SLA), weird (basically mass phantasmal killer), and other spells would be a nice addition (i'd throw something like hallucinatory terrain in there as basically being an illusion-based solid fog effect with a different graphic for example). mirror image is another spell that would likely be worth a level 2 SLA slot.

transmutation isn't completely bad at higher level spells, but could use some lower-level stuff... animate rope maybe (special component: a piece of rope, just give it a chance to entangle a single target every so often) and pyrotechnics (which should have two options, one to blind and one to create smoke) would likely be enough to make the school more appealing, if those were to be placed in as low-level options.

abjuration is a little harder to make appealing as an archmage school, since you basically either have good low-level options or the entire line is basically a waste. that said, dispel magic at level 3 might make it appealing, for removing enemy buffs. maybe introduce a low-level spell that dazes or stuns outsiders and it would be pretty appealing i think.

divination, well, not much you can do with that really. burning two spell focus feats on divination is pretty much just not gonna happen, even if there were strong spell options to take (for example, true strike would probably appeal to some as a spell-like... but who's gonna burn a feat on SF: divination for that?)

but really, those archmage lines suck because the schools suck in DDO right now, not because archmage isn't strong.

[Infant]

/snip

Thx. for the summary. I think it´s ok if PM have better overall DC´s then AM. Although I find it strange that they can beat an enchantment specced AM in Enchantment (again, they would have to invest into SF:Ench).

In fact I have a Enchantment 12/2 wizrogue AM in a static duo with my gf. Will try to pick up Conjuration for the free webs -- somehow I do have a weakness for CC .

Infant

[Shade]

Ok assuming we have the same gear/buffs
Your WF AM had to take Mental toughness
swapping tham MT for focus enchantment my drow palemaster on vampire form has the same DC and also full fortification and all the othe palemaster benefits

But that`s not really the point of the topic.


The problem is that 90% of the Archmage SLA are useless.
They never were top notch, but with all the changes now it`s just painfull; AM definitely needs an overhaul

More biased nonsense.

If your gonna compare what feats are taken, compare the full list geez. Smart warforged wizards do not waste feats on junk like toughness for 1, thats 1 feat required by pale master. They also don't take double necromancy focus, thats 3 feats.

So compare a full list of a very ideal feat setup.. Palemaster:
Extend
Maximize
Empower
Quicken
Heighten
Necromancy Focus
Greater Necromancy Focus
Enchantment Focus
Greater Enchantment Focus
Past Life – Wizard
Toughness
Past Life - Bard
Insightful Reflexes

Archmage - Enchantment/Conjuration spec:
Extend
Maximize
Empower
Quicken
Heighten
Conjuration Focus
Greater Conjuration Focus
Enchantment Focus
Greater Enchantment Focus
Past Life – Wizard
Mental Toughness
Past Life - Bard
Insightful Reflexes

So just the DC/Spell pen differences:
Archmage: +3 DC conjuration, pretty uber with 3 SP webs
+2 enchantment, matching the palemasters vampire form.. permanently.
Palemaster:
+1 DC from int (on all except: conjuration which is -2, and enchantment which is equal WHEN in vampire form - which you wont be always since lich is superior for most things)
+a million DC in necromancy (well pretty much)

So imo they are both excellent PrEs, and for the given setups, fairly balanced. Other non-enchantment/conjuration archmage setups are pretty weak I agree. And U9 is tipping the scales towards playing a max necromancy spec build too..

The vampire form does seem a bit stronger then it should have been, but oh well.. They still have there own unique strong points. The super cheap web, hypno, dance and hold person SLAs are still good.

And for players with multiple TRs and truely maxxed gear it is looking like Necromancy will probably far outshine enchantment too (given the complete removal of death immunities from all endgame mobs).. But that remains to be seen for sure how effective it can be on epic.

Re: Fortification: Pfft. With a 600 HP Warforged I always drink yugo pots, playing the game at 75% (or actually more often 65% since I run with warchanters mostly) is just fine. I play every epic quest and feel pretty much invincible, the odd critical hit can't take down such a powerful character with such incredibly fast self healing and buffs)

Now with all taht said.. All strong as my currnet WF archmage is, he is going sorc since they look way better now, so its all a moot point heh.

[Killdaelf]

More biased nonsense.

If your gonna compare what feats are taken, compare the full list geez. Smart warforged wizards do not waste feats on junk like toughness for 1, thats 1 feat required by pale master. They also don't take double necromancy focus, thats 3 feats.
.

eh but for a drow palemaster toughnes wont seems that bad. Also you need to be definitely well geared to drop that feat
But agreed moot point talking about dc


The problems remain
as you too admit, instadeath>mass hold and mass hold> web anyway
And most of AM SLA being useless