Developers, Monks Need Love!

[Thuriaz]

The real problem I found running in the sands more than anything wasn't BUILDING Ki up to/past 50, it was MAINTAINING KI in that range in wind more than anything. You'd think "Just build in fire then switch to wind" but the hit you take to con knocks concentration down 1pt, and it FEELS like it knocks your ki down 5 between the time you stance shift and start heading toward new targets (even done while in motion). So what I found was, because I'd be loosing effectively if I fought in wind it just wasn't effective to fight in wind. Ideally you should have strikes available with "retained Ki" and any excess be icing on the cake. That would make it more "viable and fun" to play. Also I found my DPS seemed actually a bit higher even in basic fire stance, maybe because I didn't completely dump stat strength in the build (14str, 16dex, levelups in dex, 16 wis, 14 con) I suppose a more balanced build, or one with better gear wouldn't have the problems I was running into, but with balance comes decreased to hit in epic, and on any dex build that is gonna be fatal.

Best suggestion I can think of, honestly, since we are lowering the higher teir elemental strikes, lower the special strikes a bit too. I'm not talking stunning fist, there is no reason to have monks perma-stunning the battle field, I'm talking stuff like Kukando, TOD, things like that. TOD at 50ki is just too hard to build up reasonably. Remember you can build up to your ki to the balance point with little problem in any stance (probably even without crane at 1ki per strike). The problem is when you go above the balance point you start loosing 1ki every few seconds (so your basically gaining 3 loosing 1 gaining 3 loosing 1, gaining 3 loosing 2, gaining 3 loosing 2, gaining 3 loosing 4) at least from my observations (that would equate to 1ki per second up till maybe 10 beyond your balance point and then after that 1/2ki per second up to 20, which would explain why I was balancing at 50 with a resting ki of ABOUT 30. The solution, honestly, reduce touch of death's ki requirements. 25Ki would be enough to fire off a stun, 1 tod, light monks who honestly have a LOT more attacks have it much rougher on this though because the entire purpose of having 3 stuns is to be able to stun 3 times. They will be reduced instead to having "3 ways to stun" which is just kinda... well pointless.

I'd say special abilities (outside of stunning fist) need a major price reduction, maybe even down to the cost of stunning fist, after all remember quests have "Down points" where we are waiting for a rogue to undo traps, getting from point A to B, or playing Super DDO Brothers jumping from place to place, during that point in time we are generating Zero Ki, so Ki banking is something that is fine in some quests but in MOST quests is much harder to do. The altrenative would be to raise the base ki stored when not in combat by maybe 50%. All things being equal if I can bank 30 at level 11, that would mean a level 20 can bank ROUGHLY 60, which means they can store one TOD and 2 elemental strikes, that honestly is akin to giving paladins 1 smite per minute and that's it.

Another alternative would be to simply change the rate of Ki degeneration to about half what it is (allowing better build up and storage) it would still drop down but it'd be a manageable resource.

At this phase of DDO, I'm glad I got a fairly high level wizard. I do feel kinda ripped off with VIP at this point though, I mean look I'm getting a class to play for free that is basically.... well basically useless in comparison to any free class. Before monks had the POTENTIAL to be as good a DD as the barbarian, OR (but not and) as good a crowed control as the tactics based fighter. Now they are looking more and more like just a utility belt splash that you take for evasion and high wisdom armor class bonuses. Again, they can solve alot of this, but honestly they gotta balance it against fire stance. I honestly think the stances are a fair bit of a terrible idea. They should make Ki gen standard as it is in fire stance and just give a 1d3 elemental bonus of type to each stance (increasing to 1d4, 1d6, and 1d8 at grand master) it would make more sense and offer MORE reason to use monk stances beyond just the build.

[akillith]

What 10 "different" ways are you talking about? Also, how will that number be reduced in U9?

You don't *need* to use oremi's. Even without it, a light monk has no problem with Ki. A dark monk using fire stance could SF on recharge and ToD *almost* on recharge (without oremi's).

You're not getting it Mew. I don't want to have to use 1 stance. I don't want to HAVE to use 1 item, simply put I want to be as diverse as I want to be and not have it be a chore as stated above. I get there's resentment do to the monk love recently. I get that people are tired of hearing people complain about "OH NOES WE CANTZ STUNZ 4EVR NO MOARS WHAT DO WI DU!!!" But I don't care about any of that. I can live without stunning everything constantly. I can live not getting to do ToD every few seconds. I don't mind having to wait. What no one is getting is that we want to be able to do it in a reasonable amount of time, and with the way things are if we're out of a fight more than a minute we have to go through three mobs to do anything ki wise. It's either that OR BE IN FIRE STANCE, which ruins the fun and diversity of the monk. The devs screwed the pooch if they were trying to get us to use stances because now, with U9 we can't choose anything practical and fun EXCEPT fire stance.

[Thuriaz]

If the new changes go live Improved Sunder will see more use as a feat than other stances will as grand master stances. I honestly have been looking up data on attack speeds to see if there is a way around two weapons fighting chain on a monk at this point, I feel kinda cheated having almost enough stats on a build to put a stance in grand mastery and not have any reason to EVER consider it with the upcoming changes. I mean, honestly, every stance should have SOME advantage, right now Wind Stance lacks... well quite a bit.

Honestly at this point, they should make Monks Free to Play and Paladins Pay to Play. It's a stronger, more capable class with more versitility and capability at this phase.

I explained it to a wizard I was running with like this "It's like they took your SP down to 50, reduced your SLA's to 1pt, but then made all spells cost 25 except your spells that do any REAL damage, those they make cost a full 50, but thats ok cause they are giving you regenerating mana at 1sp every 3 seconds, sound fun?"

he was not enthused to play such a thing as that, considering if he fought more than 2 mobs he'd be dead rather quickly, so here is my question how can you give Wizards and Sorcs basically a 50 - 80% increase in sp (depending on what they cast) and then cut a monk's ki down by as much as 90% (depending on stance because remember I only tested WIND and with CRANE).

Some things that could make the other stances usable/comparative.

Wind Stance - Increased Crit Range (1 per level of mastery) that'd bump Ki regen up a good bit even at low levels by increasing the number of critical (and therefore more ki) hits
Water Stance - Passive Ki regen up to X2 your (resting Ki) at a rate of 1ki per 2 seconds (would be on par with fire in a fight and a nice stance between fights.
Mountain Stance - Ki equals 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 Incoming Damage depending on mastery level (finally a reason to take grand master earth, yeah your spamming attacks but your getting smacked around more than the barbarian to do it)

However, none of that will happen, you know they won't do anything before Update 9, honestly I don't know if I'm gonna play after update 9. The new caster stuff has me drooling but the blatant unbalancing of the game has me fumed. I left another MMO that was unbalanced for DDO BECAUSE DDO has such great balance and great customization, now I see that getting stomped out quick. At least in a more cookie cutter MMO I'd know that whatever hard work I put in will count for SOMETHING latter on.

[akillith]

Thank you Thurlaz. The Spell point/ ki comparison took the words right out of my mouth. They need to take care of this now. Not after the update.

[Thuriaz]

Well if they wait till after the update you can bet the monk guides will start looking like this.

"Monk is a very capable class right up till around level 10 when the faster attack rate gives way to inferior weaponry, low DC's, and horrible Ki generation outside of fire stance. As is, there are only a few viable monk builds, and those are still incapable of putting out serious damage"

Look at Virtuoso, it literally has sections in guides that say things like "Don't bother." and that is JUST a PRE. There are few/no Stalwart Defender or Defender of Siberys PRE guides because no one plays those, imagine an entire class, that not just a pre but a class relegated to a foot note.

If the changes go in as is, monks will be a flavor choice, second to none in that, lacking the crowd control of the virtuoso, the intimidate of the defenders, and the damage output of the rogue mechanic, and that is for the whole class. This isn't just some backward PRE like Arcane Archer that has SOME functionality, we're talking about an entire class.

What worries me more is all we've heard is "We're aware, and we are considering balancing it" followed by a VERY speedy action to just decrease elemental strike costs. I was never a big fan of ki cycling except on bosses to begin with, I prefered to save ki for stuns, or for other abilities (on my light monk healing curse), the reason this worries me is the initial action WAS SO SPEEDY, it implies the developers believe the issue is handled. Until we see some address of this issue from them, we have to assume that they feel it's taken care of.

At this point, I think everyone would be happy to just see a post, the simplest of posts, saying "We know, it's working as intended, but that doesn't mean we are happy with the results, it'll be retooled in some way before U9 goes live, your not gonna have to deal with this problem for 3 months."

I'm not asking for a chiseled in stone promise that "Monks will be the most uuuber class ever" just a simple "We see it, it's a problem, we're gonna fix it before we ship it to you" same as I would any other product I'm paying for if it's flawed.

[AtomicMew]

You're not getting it Mew. I don't want to have to use 1 stance. I don't want to HAVE to use 1 item, simply put I want to be as diverse as I want to be and not have it be a chore as stated above. I get there's resentment do to the monk love recently. I get that people are tired of hearing people complain about "OH NOES WE CANTZ STUNZ 4EVR NO MOARS WHAT DO WI DU!!!" But I don't care about any of that. I can live without stunning everything constantly. I can live not getting to do ToD every few seconds. I don't mind having to wait. What no one is getting is that we want to be able to do it in a reasonable amount of time, and with the way things are if we're out of a fight more than a minute we have to go through three mobs to do anything ki wise. It's either that OR BE IN FIRE STANCE, which ruins the fun and diversity of the monk. The devs screwed the pooch if they were trying to get us to use stances because now, with U9 we can't choose anything practical and fun EXCEPT fire stance.

Except 1) that's not what people were complaining about, most people here were specifically complaining about monks losing power, which is false. I'm sure I don't have to quote specific people for you to realize that's true and for you to realize that this is an entirely different goalpost.

2) So in U9, you should use fire stance. How is this different than now, where you should use wind stance?

[Thuriaz]

Actually, currently, you might choose to use Fire Stance when you need an abundance of Ki (you know your going into a situation where your gonna hit a draught) wind stance for the fighting, stuns, tossing out various attacks, and water stance for meditation (when everyone else is at a rest shrine) OR For landing against low AC high DC targets.

The difference?

You will be LOCKED into fire stance after this update, you won't venture outside of fire stance, having trouble to hit? Well at least your still generating Ki in fire stance when you DO hit, and since it's probably critical it's probably BETTER Ki regen than hitting more often in wind. Having trouble landing hits due to high enemy DC's? Dare not switch out of fire stance since you had to hybrid your stats to keep your to hit up and can't take the hit to your Att. Want to hit faster? Beg the caster for a haste cause your better off landing more hits in fire stance than switching to wind stance, lowering your to hit, and then still not getting enough ki out of it to use attacks.

Ultimately, it's basically limiting the primary attack stat from "Dex or Strength" to "Just Strength" and that means it is REMOVING the validity of Wind Stance completely, it also means other stances which were "viable in certain conditions" due to the massive amounts of ki (so much so that it probably clouded how much ki fire, wind, earth, and water each really generates) coming in from stuns that are no longer viable AT ALL. On trash the time it takes you to switch from one stance to another in a group means you didn't contribute during that time, outside of trash mobs you MAY consider switching over to another stance... but why would you? Since your going to have to be Str based to keep a maxed to hit from your primary stance your going to gain MORE by being in fire and getting +4 STR than being in anything else.

There will be NO situation in which wind or water are superior stances, much less earth (which is sad cause you know, from a flavor point of view I'd love to run a "Master of the Mountain" monk, but sadly you'd be so gimped you might as well be a 6wiz/6cleric/6bard virt. Heck, that might be MORE effective than focusing as a mountain stance build right now.

So...what do I want the developers to do?

Find a little balance, fire stance isn't "over powerful" right now, it's "just powerful enough" so either give us some neat toys in the other stances that make THEM powerful enough that we'd want to build around those, or get rid of stances entirely.

Yeah you heard me, drop them, just give monks the general ki generation we'd get from being in fire as we level up, and remove the penalties in general, and drop stances entirely, because in the time I'm switching from fire to "something else" to do something neat I'm loosing the Ki I need to do something neat and what I'm aiming for is already dead. Any paladin can tell you how annoying it is to swing a smite at a dead target, now make a paladin have to stop for 1 and a half seconds before ANY smite and see how long before Paladins dissapear from the servers (to be fair you'd have to apply that to ALL paladin strikes like divine sacrifice, but you get my point I think).

Honestly you could solve the whole "Ki is an issue" thing by raising the base Ki generation per hit to that of firestance master level, keep fire stances crit boost, remove it's standard hit ki bonus boost, and that TOO would solve the ki gen issue. I can only imagine the slow reply from the development staff is that there are SO MANY GOOD WAYS TO FIX THIS that they can't seem to decide on implementing one.

Look at it like this, fire stance already gets....

The best damage from STR, the best To Hit as a primary "fighting" stance (due to rage/madstone being able to put up to +6 more STR than any achievable dex build).

The Best Ki Regen.

The least important stat penalty (cause after all, what would you rather loose, 1 DC, or 20 HP?)

What do the other stances TRUELY have to offer now, before you might hop between them, now you'll just stay in fire.

[Deathlos]

Except 1) that's not what people were complaining about, most people here were specifically complaining about monks losing power, which is false. I'm sure I don't have to quote specific people for you to realize that's true and for you to realize that this is an entirely different goalpost.

2) So in U9, you should use fire stance. How is this different than now, where you should use wind stance?

Then i could also say, People used fire stance before U9? but it would be build of the same ignorance

Since i know i didnt leave windstance for my Ac specced Finesse monk. why would i? 2extra ac, constant haste like attack speed, +2 to my attack and extra double crits vs 2dmg per hit. but now, only my build is getting nerfed, yours still remains pretty strong. and so much like a barb. so gratz! you arnt getting nerfed! but doesnt change the fact that monks versatility IS getting nerfed

Oh, to the guy above me, id go with the 20 hit to hp over taking a DC hit. i like my DC

[Malky]

But ultimately, change the helplessness mechanism before it goes live. Stunning Fist/Blow should NOT be changed to the same as Hold spells

Eladrin already stated that the change to helplessness and its consequences for monks were intended. We'll need a crapton of diplo&bluff to get that changed and since most monks dump CHA... good luck

[Thuriaz]

Yes, he then stated it must have been a bad idea as he went and shifted elemental strikes down in cost quite a bit, obviously he seen there was an impact I'm just not sure he realizes how far reaching that impact is. In any case my advice for potential monk builders will switch from "yeah definitely purchase the class and have some fun with it" to "Don't bother, just build a paladin, much more fun and active play style".

As for me, I'm starting to wish they had a VIP service that allowed you to rent a more scaled down version of the classes/races without having to buy packs/slots because frankly, I'm seeing less and less reason to play monks, I never liked half elves and half orcs, and I've only got one warforged who see's less action than my monk.

Go figure.

[ckorik]

You will be LOCKED into fire stance after this update

No you wont.

Again from live to llam - *no discernible* difference on my wind/dex based light monk. None of the light monk moves come close to the ki issues that ToD brings into play.

These changes impact a specific build in a bad way - dark dex/wind monks. Making statements that all monks must use fire/specific items is incorrect.

I do feel for you build - I don't want it to be nerfed like this - but it's not 'all monks' or even 'most monks'.

I'm rather surprised actually to see the dark dex/wind monks posting - I like that you guys exist. I didn't bother with dark specifically because the same 'forum think' about this nerf has *always* stated there exists no other path for dark but str based/fire stance.

You can go back to the monk posts from Talisman 3-4 months (or more) ago and read the exact same arguments - this was pre ToD nerf and pre U9. The prevailing forum whine has always been 'dark monks need fire stance/necklace to keep ki up anywhere near as fast'

Stuns were just the little 'secret' that no one talked about - but the same things have been said over and over and over.

[Thuriaz]

That is the funny thing, it doesn't affect my build. My monk is both a light monk AND Str based. I have no issues generating KI on him, but I did test out a fines build via LRing him over on Lamania and that being said, I can't imagine being a Light Monk in fines would be much better than a dark, though since the "sustainable ki" while hitting only in wind stance seems to be ~48/52 I could see a light monk who has no abilities costing 50ki to not have AS MUCH of an issue. Oh wait, they DO have an ability that costs 50 Ki, their Raise Dead ability costs that much, looks like light monks just went from "Versatile, able to help the party survive, and even bring a cleric back from the dead" to "just another low DPS toon Piking while the wizard kills stuff".

[Vanquishedfo]

Ive read this thread a fair bit, and have now few monk mixes along with a focussed monk.

Now in PnP one of the first things we did was adopt the optionals from the OH for additional monk weapons because WE ALL KNEW being limited to your hands, no matter how good they got, was actually a major handicap.

In DDO we have our stances, and although people here are saying monks are being nerfed and losing versatility its actually the opposite. Currently Fire stance has little appeal to any but the Extreme STR build. The speed of wind is so well loved that the current ease with which to build ki in all stances actually makes all stances to much alike.

In my mind Ki generation should be Fire's thing. Its also foccussed on using the Staff as its the monks soul two handed weapon. I dont meet alot of monk staff users and I find it sad.

Wind to me is a stance for the twin short sword using ninja spy. Ideally with around 6 in ftr for kensai 1 in shortsword. Not everything should be about pure 20 builds after all.

Water is the stance for the enlightenend cleric and fvs monk blends to me. some even cease to use melee all together. Having come to see that thier gifts can be to heal others while laying waste with will alone.

Earth is for those who follow a very hard devout path. And I feel the stance currently most in need of a PRE to round it out. Atm it seems best suited to extremely pure monk builds using dwarf and WF typically. With the right gear they can get some of the highest base fist dmg, or can maintain the choice of unarmed while splashing better then others. Its the one aspect I do agree needs love as it feels somehow incomplete atm more then the rest of the aspects.

After U9 Ki generation and how you will do it with a stance will need to be rethought by no few monks who I feel have reveled in the advantage that should be unique to fire stance while benefitting from the others.

Kensai one in shortsword and ninjaspy in monk will allow wind stance, especially using path of the crane, to generate alot of ki still I suspect. Earth will be a slow and steady style and thus I suspect in time condemned by the zerg mentality that is so prevelant in DDO. and water will likely be almost exclusivly for spell caster DC boosts.

So in a way it will decrease the versatility of what is seen. but only because what works best in DDO as percieved by the masses is speed and dmg and only 2 of the 4 stances represent that attribute wise.

Maybe water could be re imagined as another form of speed increase and even have some special weapon style. Earth could gain more control etc. Perhaps if these styles gained higher DCs for various monk CC effects etc that could compensate. Maybe even make them reduce the cost of some specific move. Like earth could do stunning more cheaply and increase the DC, while Water could boost movement speed and something akin to riposte and guardbreaking found on the CC event Shield. Dont know why just those effects seem to spring to mind when I think of Bruce lee's quote of being like water, flowing with and being soft, and then responding and hitting hard.

I know some will feel its more niche to do what I suggest, but i myself feel if all stances can generate and use ki to freely then what is the point of a stance like fire or a path like crane both clearly meant to help do that if that is your main interest in the monks fighting abilities.

[Thuriaz]

Your aware that, and this applies for dark and light monks, a number of special attacks require you be unarmed/wearing wraps yes? This means you COULD build up some considerable Ki in wind stance, using short swords, and the higher crit range BUT you'd loose on that ki since you'd have to switch weapons mid fight BEFORE making any kind of USEFUL ki strike, and then switch back again. You might be able to hot key some of that, but honestly a monk is already filling their main bar up with specials that are hard enough to hit, your tactically going to have to jump out of the fight, switch weapons, and then if there is a target remaining land your special. Remember this isn't so bad solo, but in group play all your fellow party members will see is a monk who retreated for no apparent reason JUST before the fight ended and they solved the problem.

Be ready to see more Monk hate in the LFM's folks. On the bright side it will still be a fine solo class in that, no one cares how gimped you are when your not in a group.

[ckorik]

, and the higher crit range BUT you'd loose on that ki since you'd have to switch weapons mid fight BEFORE making any kind of USEFUL ki strike,

except:

Monks, DCs, and U9
Views: 7,947
Posted By Eladrin
Fists of Iron and The Trembling Earth should both...

Fists of Iron and The Trembling Earth should both function with weapons. (Touch of Death, Quivering Palm, and Stunning Fist are the attacks that currently require unarmed combat.)

So no - not *any* kind of useful strike - some of the more powerful ones for sure - but you can play a monk without them.

Oh wait, they DO have an ability that costs 50 Ki, their Raise Dead ability costs that much, looks like light monks just went from "Versatile, able to help the party survive, and even bring a cleric back from the dead" to "just another low DPS toon Piking while the wizard kills stuff".
04-07-2011 09:26 AM

An ability that can be replaced by a clicky on any character is not the defining moment of a light monk. Outside of soloing with a hireling (because they are stupid) I can't even remember the last time I *needed* that ability in a group.

Then again as a light/dex based monk I'm not having a problem hovering around 60 ish ki anytime and can quickly build up to over 100 if I need to by holding strikes.

*without* meditation I can stand still and regen to over 50 ki with capstone. This is on a first life 32 point build - I *just* hit my 20th shroud on this char last night.

[Thuriaz]

So at level 20 your able to hold enough Ki for a level 9 strike and you don't see that broken at all?

[akillith]

So at level 20 your able to hold enough Ki for a level 9 strike and you don't see that broken at all?

Exactly. Seriously.

Edit: I'm tired of repeating myself. If you have read previous posts we have briefly stated the effects on certain builds such as; dark/dex/crane, light monks, and other builds in general. Like when we stated the near uselessness of earth and water and the reasons why people don't use them, and that they need a pre. Yes we know some monks will be fine, we also know some earth and water builds work NOW this has also been said. But vast majority play other monks that are going to be affected. And by saying Light monks are fine, is just the same as saying dark ones aren't. You're focusing on what is ok, rather than whats wrong.

[Thuriaz]

Well a new U9 Test will be up on Lamania after tomorrow. We can HOPE they've balanced some things. For now we can wait and see.

[thandros]

All i do when i had ki trouble is the next trash mob i don't; use any ki strikes to build up a buffer then i go to town, about every 15 or so mobs i have to back off on ki strikes for 30 seconds or so then im golden.
If i know a boss fight is soon i store up ki for 2 or 3 mobs to give me a larger buffer

[Thuriaz]

What build/stance do you use during this? Wind? Any special gear?

My findings on a dex based dark monk was it was just more efficient to spend time in fire stance while roaming about the sands. Given that the sands are a low population zone, likewise I was never a ki strike spammer. If a monster had a weakness to a particular element I'd slap some ki strikes of that kind in, but I never focused on just spamming strike after strike except possibly on bosses. That being said, in wind stance going from fight to fight I had issues keeping Ki above 50 without using any specials. That is to say, just landing punches in wind, with the crit booster from crane and the speed from wind, let me keep just enough to use a level 9 attack. I plan on hopping on some more today and test some things out with some slightly different gear (assuming I can find some +10 concentration gear on Lam) and see if that changes things much.