Developers, Monks Need Love!

[NaturalHazard]

[QUOTE=Malky;3703600]If you build a barb for dps you will have a good dps on each and every target in game
If you build a fighter for dps you will have a good dps on each and every target in game
If you build a rogue for dps you are a god on 0% fort, a good dpser on 50% fort and a piker on 100% fort
If you build a ranger for dps, see fighter/barb and add that free manyshot time every 2min
If you build a pally for dps you are a god on evil outsider and a piker out of those targets.

excuse me? a ranger built for dps is just as good as a barb/fighter for dps as in good dps for each and every target in the game with a free manyshot thrown in? Have you even played a ranger? what planet you living on? So rangers get favoured enemy against every target in the game? On the charts it even shows that rangers are behind fighters/barbs against their favoured enemies, you have them against non favoured enemies and they are so far behind its funny.

[NaturalHazard]

What is strange is Bards had the first tier of PrE before anyone else ... and it took them four years to add the second tiers. Then we have these other classes which are bout two years old asking to finish theirs.

true.

[grodon9999]

excuse me? a ranger built for dps is just as good as a barb/fighter for dps as in good dps for each and every target in the game with a free manyshot thrown in? Have you even played a ranger? what planet you living on? So rangers get favoured enemy against every target in the game? On the charts it even shows that rangers are behind fighters/barbs against their favoured enemies, you have them against non favoured enemies and they are so far behind its funny.

Those "charts" are for MAXED out toons that aren't even 1% of the gaming population. With +6 stat items, seeker 6, and vanilla Mineral IIs a Tempest III, Kensai III, and FB III are very close to damage output.

Take the calc and remove all the stuff that 99% of the players don't have, my observations regarding aggro-pulls back this as well.

This is of course against Favored Enemies. Against non-FEs rangers hit slightly harder than battle-clerics.

[edgarallanpoe]

No those are all quotes from *one* person on Lam.

That person wants to stun *every* mob and ToD every time it's up and spam elemental strikes.

The devs have stated (even if they change their mind - Eladrin was very clear) changes were *intended* to break this behavior.

My own testing on Lam *without* the necklace didn't make me feel like it was noticeable on a light monk - and after LR'ing to Dark I found that it was fine in *sun* *without* a necklace.

Actual testing - by an actual monk. Some people disagree and think it's way over the top - that's an *opinion* - if you are very worried about it test it for yourself - don't just use what other people are saying and think the world is going to end.

Wrong...those are from more than one person.

You keep bringing up fire stance, but that is my exact point! Why should I *have* to use fire? Have you tried it without fire or Oremis? If you have, let us know how it is. I am a wind stance Monk without Oremis yet.

I wish I did have access to Lam, but I don't.

I am not chicken little and I never said the world would end. I think I have been pretty clear about my issues and while I have been critical of the change I have never said I would cease to play or even cease to play a Monk. I'm not even sure where you would get that from my posts.

[Missing_Minds]

new?

Yes new per lama notes.

Per the wiki, ki current costs are 5, 6, 7, and 8 for the lvl I, II, III, IV versions.

[Soleran]

NEW: The ki costs of higher tiers of monk elemental and void attacks have been reduced to 5 ki each.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206066

I know it probalby won't be enough to appease most players, but it is a start in a direction some were asking for.

Really let's be honest about the elemental strikes, they are going from 8 max ki to 5 max ki. Most of the discussion is on monk special abilities not elemental strikes to begin with since it's 8 ki for grandmaster strikes with a cd it's less then a drop in the bucket for ki management.

What most monks are realizing is that windstance isn't going to be an alternative for monks unless you wear oremi so instead most monks will use fire stance which is what the dev's had hoped to change several updates ago with changes to the usefulness of stances, woops that's gone now.

[NaturalHazard]

Those "charts" are for MAXED out toons that aren't even 1% of the gaming population. With +6 stat items, seeker 6, and vanilla Mineral IIs a Tempest III, Kensai III, and FB III are very close to damage output.

Take the calc and remove all the stuff that 99% of the players don't have, my observations regarding aggro-pulls back this as well.

This is of course against Favored Enemies. Against non-FEs rangers hit slightly harder than battle-clerics.

even if this is the case his comment is still wrong, as he said rangers are like barbs and fighters have good/ im taking him to mean just as good dps vs "all" targets in the game. sure 4-5 favoured enemies covers a lot but, with more high level epic's ect, thankfully its turning into something other than dungeons and devils, and yes a do notice a huge difference in say amarath when im beating on devils and orthons then switch to tierflings.

[ckorik]

Wrong...those are from more than one person.

You keep bringing up fire stance, but that is my exact point! Why should I *have* to use fire? Have you tried it without fire or Oremis? If you have, let us know how it is. I am a wind stance Monk without Oremis yet.

Dark monk without fire is going to have issues - I posted a suggestion to way of the crane that *I* think would even it out. Currently outside of fire stance you are going to be running dry much more often than in the past (opinion based on my testing).

On a boss fight you shouldn't notice much of a difference from what you have now. Trash may see the use of stance dancing to build up ki. You don't *have* to use fire. The quotes you posted indicate that dark monks *in* fire *with* the necklace are barely playable. I disagree.

Perhaps I'm biased - I've never had the necklace and I don't stun *every* mob - I'm used to spending my ki as I see fit nonstop while fighting and I'm not really seeing much of a difference. I will miss using a single stunned mob to build up a huge ki reserve for a boss fight - but even when that doesn't happen (often because casters *love* that wail spell) I never run out of ki on a boss if I'm spending wisely.

This specific example - dex based dark monks - would be a perfect discussion - that's not what this thread is about.

Monks need some very serious attention and they need it very soon. This class is probably the most loved in the game but many people are very unhappy with many things about them that still need some serious work. Below is a list of things people would like to see get some much needed attention in the very near future.

1. Ki Generation
2. Stunning fist lower than kensei II or III with monk splash
3. Ninja Spy III
4. Create Henshin Mystic PRE
5. Add more metal handwrap options

1. seems fine *as intended* outside of a specific type of build - using a general statement is wrong and historically doesn't get dev attention as much as specific examples with suggestions to fix them that don't *overpower* the rest of the class.

2. Who cares? Kensei that gimp themselves to use SF (remember you have to be unarmed to use SF) can have a higher DC - this only matters if the DC to stun mobs goes up too high. So far this has *not* happened.

3. PRE? We have had monk PRE work done on every update in the last year. The very first update that doesn't have monk love and we are going to complain?

5. Can get behind this - it's a big problem at lower levels when you have to use Kama's to hit a golem. This also isn't a new idea and something that is unlikely to get addressed outside of the crafting system.

[DrunkenBuddha]

Anti-monk, pro-monk - whatever. But does anyone think that forcing all monks into Fire/Oremi is a satisfactory answer to deal with pre-U9 ki issues? Earth/Water was already not being used, now Wind has been relegated to that as well.

I don't care about the DPS. I know my dex/wis light monk wasn't bringing DPS. I was assisting with crowd control. I don't even care that much about the DC changes - fine, sometimes my stuns won't land as frequently as before. I get that.

What I don't get is that unless I am Fire/Oremi, I won't have any ki to do anything but swing wildly. We have all these nifty abilities that we can't use. Like a fighter than can only use one ability per minute - you want to use stunning blow? Sure go ahead, but you can't use your other action boosts for another minute either.

All these nifty abilities like quiverpalm, SF, Kukan-do, etc. - essentially one per minute. Monks are entirely dependent upon ki for their utility. To use ki, everyone will now be the same.

If I want LitII's, I can rock them on my fighter, but I have other viable options as well. I can use a bloodstone, or use seeker pirate hat, or I have multiple options. Monks are now essentially required to use Oremi and Fire just to plain function. My sorc was fine without Torc. Getting it also helped but I didn't "require" it prior.

Can't see that cut-n-paste copies of the same type of monk and gear are what the devs were trying to accomplish with this change.

[edgarallanpoe]

Dark monk without fire is going to have issues - I posted a suggestion to way of the crane that *I* think would even it out. Currently outside of fire stance you are going to be running dry much more often than in the past (opinion based on my testing).

On a boss fight you shouldn't notice much of a difference from what you have now. Trash may see the use of stance dancing to build up ki. You don't *have* to use fire. The quotes you posted indicate that dark monks *in* fire *with* the necklace are barely playable. I disagree.

Perhaps I'm biased - I've never had the necklace and I don't stun *every* mob - I'm used to spending my ki as I see fit nonstop while fighting and I'm not really seeing much of a difference. I will miss using a single stunned mob to build up a huge ki reserve for a boss fight - but even when that doesn't happen (often because casters *love* that wail spell) I never run out of ki on a boss if I'm spending wisely.

This specific example - dex based dark monks - would be a perfect discussion - that's not what this thread is about.

Absolutely right, this wasn't the intent of the OP but the thread inevitably was going to go here. It sounds like you and I play a similar style albeit for different reasons. I find myself full of Ki because I can't remember to use the friggin special attacks! lol. I do rely heavily on stuns with my wind stance dark monk and it looks like that will definitely have to change.


Understand that I am not opposed to change and I don't mind thinking out of the box, so to speak. But wouldn't you agree that if this goes live that fire stance will have an *overwhelming* advantage over every other stance and that Crane will be required of every other stance? If that is the case...again, IF...isn't that subject to and worthy of criticism?

I was considering creating a Water based Dex/Wis monk but scratched the idea for now because I can't see him generating anywhere near the Ki needed to be effective. This build would rely *heavily* upon Ki for damage and as such, builds like this would be extraordinarily difficult to make successful. Well beyond the skill of an admittedly average player like myself.

[Missing_Minds]

Really let's be honest about the elemental strikes, they are going from 8 max ki to 5 max ki. Most of the discussion is on monk special abilities not elemental strikes to begin with since it's 8 ki for grandmaster strikes with a cd it's less then a drop in the bucket for ki management.

Just like to complain, don't you? Didn't I state it won't appease?

But since you say a drop in the bucket, lets look at this drop. Lets say Karmic Strike. (I'm using this one as I expect dark monks to use it a lot more come U9)

KS has a cost of 10 Ki.

So lets assume we are trying for max damage. so fire, dark fire.

8 + 8 + 8 = 24. +10 = 34 in total
becomes
5 + 5 + 5 = 15. +10 = 25 in total.

34 points of Ki vs 25 points of ki in total. The change in cost almost pays for the finishing move in this instance. You've saved 9 points comparative.

Now sure this won't help ToD a whole lot but as stated before. It is a start.

[ckorik]

But wouldn't you agree that if this goes live that fire stance will have an *overwhelming* advantage over every other stance and that Crane will be required of every other stance? If that is the case...again, IF...isn't that subject to and worthy of criticism?

I do agree - I think it's worth talking about - I am frustrated because getting the devs to pay attention to this specific issue is going to be almost impossible with the *waves* of 'monks can't stun anymore' 'monks can't use elemental strikes anymore' 'kensai is better at stunning fist' posts.

If you have payed attention to what the CM's say - when the devs are silent and not answering questions - is that they skim the boards and don't have time to really get *into* a thread. The other thing you find is overwhelming evidence that once an idea gets spammed (like 'monks need love!') over and over they assume *all* the threads are making the same argument.

So with all the 'DOOOOOM' and 'This new thing - I don't like it' threads I just don't expect anything to happen this go around.

[edgarallanpoe]

I do agree - I think it's worth talking about - I am frustrated because getting the devs to pay attention to this specific issue is going to be almost impossible with the *waves* of 'monks can't stun anymore' 'monks can't use elemental strikes anymore' 'kensai is better at stunning fist' posts.

Good point...didn't think about that.

BTW +1 rep coming for a good and civil argument.

[Soleran]

Just like to complain, don't you? Didn't I state it won't appease?

But since you say a drop in the bucket, lets look at this drop. Lets say Karmic Strike. (I'm using this one as I expect dark monks to use it a lot more come U9)

KS has a cost of 10 Ki.

So lets assume we are trying for max damage. so fire, dark fire.

8 + 8 + 8 = 24. +10 = 34 in total
becomes
5 + 5 + 5 = 15. +10 = 25 in total.

34 points of Ki vs 25 points of ki in total. The change in cost almost pays for the finishing move in this instance. You've saved 9 points comparative.

Now sure this won't help ToD a whole lot but as stated before. It is a start.

I didn't complain I made a statement of fact not some arbitrary rant about how it will suck. If monks use their ki wisely no dark monk in their right mind would use that strike with tod available, lets see throw ki at a set of strikes (bosses being immune to fire) to get 1 crit for 20 hp??

Now wind is a loss in dps even with doublestrike with the ki loss and not being able to sustain ki strikes, so my statement is the same as before. Lowering elemental ki strikes doesn't in fact change the fact monks have many finishers and they all just got put on the back burner since nothing is as effective as just killing your opponent and fire will provide the ki required.

So earth(barely useful,)water (ha really total waste) and now wind are being hit the hardest. Not to mention I've suggested alternatives to lowering ki costs.

The real benefits to being a light monk is the ability to use alot of tools and really they are hit the hardest since dark monk finishers in general are so limited in their use and abilities with current saves let's forget the change in saves.

This is coming from a monk that is wind/dex/wis and can get 34 wisdom and still can get saved on more often then not currently in game aside from SF but once again these are just facts not complaints.

I've played without oremi and used shinto and I have both sets there are limited options with these changes really, good bad ugly it is what it is.

If you want to crank out high dc's and be effective with ki make a 12monk/8fighter or 12 fighter/8 monk and more so the 12 fighter 8 monk since they get powersurge and haste and higher to hit and only sacrifice epic dr 10 while gaining huge hp.

[Jahmin]

Please sign if you agree and/or leave a reply with the things you would like to see fixed/added for monks and I will add them to the list. Hopefully together we can get something done. Thanks.[/color]

/signed

Unlock the PrEs from the Paths: Ninja Spys should be able to be Harmonious and Shintaos should be able to be Domination.

But ultimately, change the helplessness mechanism before it goes live. Stunning Fist/Blow should NOT be changed to the same as Hold spells

[AtomicMew]

So you really agree that there are now just two ways to build a monk instead of the 10 different ways before and you believe that is a good thing?

And for your information if my fighter uses an min II or epic weapon he is still almost on par or better than wielding an lit II weapon, while there are no other options for oremis necklace which is also an level 18 item.

Don't get me wrong i do not mind it if they change the rules a bit, but i like the monk class because it was possible to build a lot of different and usefull builds with it.
And i wished they improved the earth and water stances more so that people would actually use them, but instead they made it even a worse possible choice to use them.

What 10 "different" ways are you talking about? Also, how will that number be reduced in U9?

You don't *need* to use oremi's. Even without it, a light monk has no problem with Ki. A dark monk using fire stance could SF on recharge and ToD *almost* on recharge (without oremi's).

[Thuriaz]

Ultimately it won't change the ways you can build a monk, in retrospect, it'll just change the monk to only being viable in fire stance. You'll shift into fire even if your a dex based monk for ki gen, then shift into wind/water once your ready to use up that ki you've stored IF anything has lived long enough for it to matter. What it boils down to though is that MORE LIKELY since there is a pause between shifting stances you'll STAY in fire stance, even if your dex based, and ONLY shift out of it if for some reason you had a surplus of Ki after a fight (that is to say, you were hitting mobs and they were dieing at such a rate that you finished the fight without using any ki strikes). In either event it means the play style just went from "The most versatile class in the game" to "One way, the only way, no other ways to do it."

Builds can still be different, and gimped from a certain point of view, and dex will still be viable to those who can't get a +1 tome (first time players who don't have ANY bankroll). So what we are seeing is that Turbine is making an environment that is, ultimately, hostile to their largest purchasers of the monk class -> Newer Players. After all a longer time player will likely be aiming for min-max or have banked enough points from multiple TRs to purchase the Monk class without spending money on TP.

However before I say anything further on it I'm going to hop on Lamania, LR my Light monk human to a dark monk dex/wis and see just how good... or bad... this really is.

I don't have any twinked gear, he's sitting at level 11 now, so it should be interesting to see just how hard it IS to generate Ki in Wind Stance, Crane Path, on a dark monk.

[Zorack00]

I'd agree with Ki Generation since I have a Wind Stance Dark Monk... I don't want to go to Fire Stance...

[Thuriaz]

And my results... not as bad as people claim but still detrimental.

You certainly DO using path of the crane, wind stance, generate SOME ki, not a ton of Ki mind you, and I found running around in sands at lvl 11 I could generate and maintain AROUND 50 ki (47 - 51) and it would take killing 6 - 8 mobs (assuming the distance between me and them allowed nonstop fighting) to get that ~50 ki back in wind stance.

In fire stance I found I could accomplish the same on half that many mobs (or less in some instances). That is even as a dex based monk, so what does that mean? It means that Ki generation in fire st ance WITH Crane path is still viable, Strength based monks probably won't even notice this change as I was able to keep and BANK up to 80 Ki in fire stance (though if not discharging ki I could only keep 50 in wind stance no matter what I did).

I tried the wind stance with precission and, imagine this, I found I was able to generate Ki a bit more quickly (even as a time scale comparison) than without precission probably due to the double strikes landing and the 25% fort reduction allowing a few more crits here and there.

My thoughts: Playing a finess monk is more like work than play, I don't mean that like in the way that grinding feels like work, I mean it feels like a job, a chore, your more focused on managing and generating Ki and it's really not all that fun, is it DOABLE? Yes, so are melee wizards, so are bards without a performe skill but it's not advisable.

The solution? I'd say make it so windstance generates even MORE ki on a crit, and so that water stance up's the baseline storable ki by a certain amount. This would even things out a bit as in crit possible scenarios a Wind crane would be about as strong as a Fire Anything But Crane style. Likewise Water would become the GoTo stance not just for landing attacks, but also for maintaining Ki between fights.

Mountain stance just needs, honestly, a lot more Incoming Ki per hit taken.

[elujin]

and then fire will have ?

some times tod is overkill
and wind is still better raw dps then fire

when enemys are low hp and plentyfull
wind + ki strikes should be plenty o dps

if you want to tod click on the fire stance
for bigger tergets .

ki shoudn't be that mutch of a prob on boss dps

water for saves and dc's and earth for ... eum help breaking dr with jistz added dmg dice .???.( when your lvl 6 lol)