Developers, Monks Need Love!

[ckorik]

*snip*

You must spread more reputation around before repping QuantumFX again

[Soleran]

My Dark Monk has an Oremi's and only 2 Tiers of Crane, using Wind Stance, here are my findings:

1. Whenever something is in auto-crit I have more Ki than I can use (Dark btw) I can spam all 3 Earth Strikes, the Finisher, ToD, and the Storm strikes IF I mash fast enough.

2. When I am beating down High HP mobs (Trash) that are not held, Oremi's is Enough to keep my Strike use at a level rate (ToD and Earth+Storm)

3. When fighting bosses my Ki slowly dwindled until I have to lay off of Storm strikes for about 5 seconds before I can begin to re-spam them. No real issue here.

3. When I used Fire, I COULD NEVER USE ALL OF MY KI. I had WAY more than ever necessary, and had to mash wildly to avoid filling my entire bar with yellow every couple seconds.

I doubt this "change" to Ki generation will be all that bad. It just means you can't mash keys at all times, something you couldn't do before. It will be like leveling up before every battle is Mass Hold+Beatdown.

I have oremi and shinto set and i can tell you with windstance and crane 3 with shinto set you will be able to tod bosses but you can forget the earth strikes unless you are married to oremi neck you will be auto attack with tod.

Is it right, who cares really but it does get tedious to be married to one item for game play in windstance. With the changes fire stance will really be the goto stance with bonus to hit and ki regen. While it may be good for balanced game play it really borked the stances even more (earth, water, wind.)

With the changes to SF fighter/monk hybrids just got even more powerful with more dps and higher dc's for stunning and better ki regen.

Changing the capstone to 1 ki per hit would be SO much better then passive ki regen and 10 concentration.

[CrosisBlackwing]

I have oremi and shinto set and i can tell you with windstance and crane 3 with shinto set you will be able to tod bosses but you can forget the earth strikes unless you are married to oremi neck you will be auto attack with tod.

Changing the capstone to 1 ki per hit would be SO much better then passive ki regen and 10 concentration.

First Part: I agree that losing out on oremi's is pretty impossible for a Wind Monk, which would suggest moving to fire once I aquire Shintao Ring (30 runs and counting)

Second part: I definitely agree. The Regen is REALLY cool imo, but would be much more fitting as +1 ki per hit.

[elujin]

Which part of the fact that monks aren't generating enough Ki to fire TOD, let alone a TOD preceded by a debuff escapes you. Great...I can do 750hp on a strike I can't use.

your not supose to be mashing it evry time its off cooldown if that was the case why do we have ki just for fun.

saying you can never fire a tod off again is just silly.

[Malky]

Actually a capstone that raises the crit template of fists from 20/2x to 19-20/x2 would make more sense to me than +1 Ki/hit : with the u9 helplessness changes crit templates will be far more important than before, and you all know how crappy monk dps is on 0% fort mobs.

Sure monks have goodies, but if you looks at what a pure dps dark monk gets it's down to runspeed, abundant step, dr 10/epic and imp evasion, out of which only the base runspeed is unique to monks.
If you build a barb for dps you will have a good dps on each and every target in game
If you build a fighter for dps you will have a good dps on each and every target in game
If you build a rogue for dps you are a god on 0% fort, a good dpser on 50% fort and a piker on 100% fort
If you build a ranger for dps, see fighter/barb and add that free manyshot time every 2min
If you build a pally for dps you are a god on evil outsider and a piker out of those targets.

U9 helplessness changes gonna go live Thoon(tm), fine but keep something in mind :

A pally with a pair of lit 2 khopeshs, outside of evil outsiders, is probably out-dpsing a pure dps dark monk on 0% fort targets. Considering the crowd of 0% fort targets in the endgame (read: epics mostly)... it's kinda sad.

(Note: the pally can rez, heal, buff a bit, etc... ain't that goodies as well ?)

[Will_Ferrer]

Someone posted that they should just do away with Ki, I agree. Just make it like pally attacks with cool downs and regens. That way there is less chance of abuse. The new system is pretty much this with the exception of a few build types. I do agree that current Ki generation is over the top, however without more adjustments the U9 Ki Gen "nerf/fix" is pretty heavy handed

I played a light monk that is currently undergoing upgrades via TR'n but with crafting on the way I see myself becoming a dark monk with only the first tier of ninja spy and no ToD, according the allstate add at the top of the thread I shouldn't pay for something I never use. I liked being a light monk for its control options but it doesn't really seem like it'll be fun anymore. These Shintao abilities will cost much of my income. I'm not a Wisdom based monk but I didn't dump it either yet the cost vs benefit of Shintao abilities will likely throw much of them out the window in epics.

Ive really enjoyed the monk class because I like its active play style of button mashing, its what hooked me on the monk in the first place, there was more to do then just rage and attack. I play most of my melee using Trip, Sunder, Cleave and Stunning blow(if i have it) because I like mashing buttons.

Before there was Monk I played a Fighter what would intim then when they got close I would Improved Trip and/or Stunning blow, I would sometimes use Shield bash to Trip or Stun mobs heck I even used sunder when fighting with melee caster/clerics I often left the mob for others to kill as I enjoy adding to the party and not so much my kill count. As you can imagine I like tactics/control but hate playing a caster. With this change there is little for me to enjoy about my monk. Ive been going over my options and I wont do 12/8 Id really rather not play her at all at that point.

I however think its silly that Raid boss fights for the most part will remain unchanged with the exception, that my monk will be able to do more DPS then your average barb against a raid boss because Ill be able to craft better handwraps and my elemental attacks will be cheaper allowing me to spam them in the windstance more and yet in regular/epic content where all the nifty monk abilities "work" ill be bored to tears watching as sorcs enjoy the active button mashing play I only see in raids

[shadowhop]

No, you just do what every other toon does before getting X piece of gear. Oh and it doesn't *Dominate* your toon. You can still use SF ON RECHARGE and TOD ~3.5 times per minute with just fire stance.


No, actually, it's you who doesn't understand. Guess how many casters either want or use a Torc? Guess how many fighters use or want Lit II's? Oh and, guess how many monks use or want Nyoko's?

That Oremi's will be optimal instead of Nyoko's doesn't pigeonhole monks any more than it was before.

So you really agree that there are now just two ways to build a monk instead of the 10 different ways before and you believe that is a good thing?

And for your information if my fighter uses an min II or epic weapon he is still almost on par or better than wielding an lit II weapon, while there are no other options for oremis necklace which is also an level 18 item.

Don't get me wrong i do not mind it if they change the rules a bit, but i like the monk class because it was possible to build a lot of different and usefull builds with it.
And i wished they improved the earth and water stances more so that people would actually use them, but instead they made it even a worse possible choice to use them.

[krogyy]

Try reading the comment before posting useless replies to it. Monks have no DC increasing enhancements for *any* of their stunning abilities, insta death abilities, finishers, or elemental attacks.

Since you demonstrate a distinct lack of knowledge of the game here is a shortlist:

All Monks:
Stunning Fist
Quivering Palm
Eagle Claw
Unbalancing Strike
4 Elemental Finishers
Shining Star

Shintao monk specific:
Kukan Do
Jade Strike
Banishing Fist
Tomb of Jade

Ninja-Spy specific:
Touch of Death
5 Dark Finishers

Now let’s compare this to fighters:
Stunning Blow/Stunning Fist
Trip/Improved Trip (Which also has a higher save than regular trip)
Sunder/Improved Sunder (Which also has a higher save than regular Sunder)

i don't know if you realized it but you are supporting my claim.

monk shouldn't ask for improved tactics DC. it would pigeon hole them in a fighter on pijamas role.

Except for all the damage enhancements, weapon enhancements, and boosts.

a fighter gamepley without tactics abilities revolves around buff and autoattack.
so yeah, not much left

Claiming that one class should get it and another shouldn’t is idiotic.

that last word would warrant a report i guess. but anyway....
different classes having different strong points is what makes classes unique.
otherwise let's just play with one class and be done ok?

[AMDarkwolf]

I do also think the dev's (not a single one of them) have played monk.

Reason is they see a firestanced, crane path, oremi' wearing dark monk being able to SF+ToD+3xE+earth finisher, and repeat. with no ki issues.

They then think 'oh look at what the overpowered monk can do' and nerf it so bad that with the above setup, u can gain 'good but not overwhelming' ki. Issue is they forgot about anyone NOT running the above, and therefore, teh rest of us, who have even a slightly different setup, get shafted. Hardcore shafted.


All I request is for a dev to please PLEASE play the game. Not with your ability to give yourself any level/ability/stat you want, but PLAY the game from level 1 though 20. Try different builds(NOT just the 'best possible') and then please re-assess what your have planned.

PLEASE!

[Erekose]

No, they do not. Right now monks are pretty much at the top of the heep. Barbs and Rangers are in the toilets and need fixed.

I would disagree, even a fully pimped out Str Monk wont out dps a fully pimped GTWF Barb with 2 splash Ftr.

However, I do agree that the balance between classes should lean toward ftr/Barb with top dps and monk special abilities as their edge in fighting.

[edgarallanpoe]

your not supose to be mashing it evry time its off cooldown if that was the case why do we have ki just for fun.

saying you can never fire a tod off again is just silly.

These are direct quotes from folks actually playing Monks on Lam.

I've found that even in the most ideal circumstances (soloing) you do not generate enough ki to use anything other than stunning fist without either fire stance or oremis neck.

I confirm also from my testing that ki regen is broken now even for fire stance monks without oremis.

From Lammania Testing: Either TOD or Stunning fist or abundant step or shadow fade you only have the ki to maintain 1 until the rare occasion that you generate enough ki to throw a second ki use. The devs went through a lot of work on dark monk finishers, shintao stuns, elemental punches and developing water and earth and air stances just to have us single mindfully use one option available too us? IE: firestance+a variety of punches or any other stance and one punch available too us.

With these Ki testing it seems it will be difficult for many wisdom build dark monks to keep up shadow fade while still preforming stunning fist as often as possible. And you'd certainly not be using your ki for anything else *abundant steps or TODs* unless you are using either the fire stance or the oremi's neck.

[Missing_Minds]

monk shouldn't ask for improved tactics DC. it would pigeon hole them in a fighter on pijamas role.

That would be true if they had the exact same attacks. They do not. While a monk can take trip/sunder/stunning feats, fighters do not have stunning fist nor eagle claw. There is no special monk trip attack.

I see no issue with asking that monks get some way to improve the DC of monk attacks. Perhaps this is something Henshin will address? We don't know.

[Havok.cry]

I think they should add a passive ki generation component to the concentration skill, based on skill level, outside of combat. It would scale with level, and allow monks to enter a fight with decent ki. Just my two cents...

One thing that bothers me tho is that many nerfs actually encourage people to try new/unused things... maybe you should roll with it and try... or maybe I'm just a lunatic

[Thuriaz]

Well by now we know the devs are aware of all this, it's now a question of WILL THEY FIX IT BEFORE U9. Will they balance stances in a meaningful way? Will they balance Ki gen for Dark Monks TOD and Light Monks hoard of other abilities or will they simply ignore all this? Only time will tell. What would be nice at THIS Phase after all the complaining has basically been done would be even the tiniest note along the lines of "We are aware, we see it's a problem, we'll have a fix in before it goes live, don't delete your monks." what we are getting is silence.

I don't even care what the fix is, make something OTHER Than just elemental strikes viable on a non twinked character.

Non-Strength based monks already give up 2Str from rage, Str from madstone, and probably a couple other STR only sources I'm not or just barely am aware of. Now we sabotage fines monks further? Not cool turbine, not cool. Even the most dedicated dex monk with a dex race (half elf) and a dex dilly (rogue) looses out on the to hit side of things compared to a moderately STR based, non-fines, levelups in STR fighter dilly build.

[edgarallanpoe]

One thing that bothers me tho is that many nerfs actually encourage people to try new/unused things... maybe you should roll with it and try... or maybe I'm just a lunatic

Nobody disagrees with this premise. But it is looking like Fire+Crane+Oremis is the *only* way. It is working out exactly opposite of what you propose.

[Missing_Minds]

NEW: The ki costs of higher tiers of monk elemental and void attacks have been reduced to 5 ki each.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206066

I know it probalby won't be enough to appease most players, but it is a start in a direction some were asking for.

[NaturalHazard]

Solution, . When LFMs have specifically in the caption "Looking for DPS, no Monks" then Turbine will notice.

seen a lot of lfm's that say looking for dps and not having ranger there............. still no love from turbine so dont hold your breath.

[Logicman69]

I would disagree, even a fully pimped out Str Monk wont out dps a fully pimped GTWF Barb with 2 splash Ftr.

.

I have to disagree. My Wis/Dex monk can easily pull agro from alot of Barbs, and leaves most fighters in the dust. While the first number in the chain may not be as big as a barbs, the sheer number of damage icons and the speed at wich they are delivered makes up for it.

[elujin]

NEW: The ki costs of higher tiers of monk elemental and void attacks have been reduced to 5 ki each.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206066

I know it probalby won't be enough to appease most players, but it is a start in a direction some were asking for.

new?

[ckorik]

These are direct quotes from folks actually playing Monks on Lam.

No those are all quotes from *one* person on Lam.

That person wants to stun *every* mob and ToD every time it's up and spam elemental strikes.

The devs have stated (even if they change their mind - Eladrin was very clear) changes were *intended* to break this behavior.

My own testing on Lam *without* the necklace didn't make me feel like it was noticeable on a light monk - and after LR'ing to Dark I found that it was fine in *sun* *without* a necklace.

Actual testing - by an actual monk. Some people disagree and think it's way over the top - that's an *opinion* - if you are very worried about it test it for yourself - don't just use what other people are saying and think the world is going to end.