Developers, Monks Need Love!

[Celebras]

Well i guess, thats what will happen to monks then, that they will just go the DPS path then. Not that they increased the monks DPS, they just lowered DPS for other classes and the Monsters HP on Epic at least. So in this way some1 might think, yes, they do more damage compared to other classes then. But then i guess i really have to TR my monk (didnt wanna do that) and take fighter or something like that, if its just all about DPS in the game then.
Im really looking forward to U9 really wanna see if my Monk is really nerfed or not

[edgarallanpoe]

1. Only if you are a dark path worried about DPS
2. Only if you are a dark path worried about DPS
3. Only if you are a dark path worried about DPS

Specifically ToD - stop using ToD and your Ki problems go away. That's why people are saying this is crying about DPS.

A monk that can't do anything but ToD is gimp if they can't fire it - no argument. Perhaps the dark monk role is no longer to stun but to DPS.

My light path monk uses a lot more Ki strikes than my dark. My dark path will fire off the SF and elemental strikes along with the occasional TOD but TOD is useless against many things in DDO, in particular undead, and constructs so the TOD argument is only valid in certain situations. But answer this... My dark monk is a dex/wis build and a Grandmaster of Storms. How am I going to generate enough Ki to even use my most basic attacks if I am not in Fire? I also haven't been lucky enough to get Oremis yet. TOD is the furthest thing from my mind.

[edgarallanpoe]

maybe not DPS, but i heard a lot of crying by various of the so called "pro-monk crowd" that kensai's have better tactics DC.

Only partially correct. The DC complaint is about a *specific* tactic. In particular SF. It makes no sense for any other character to have a higher DC in *only* stunning fist than a pure Monk. FWIW I would be saying the exact same thing if Monks who splash other classes wind up with higher DC that are specific to that other class. It makes no sense. Would a Monk with a splash of Rogue have a higher DC in open locks than a pure Rogue? That makes zero sense.

[ckorik]

My light path monk uses a lot more Ki strikes than my dark. My dark path will fire off the SF and elemental strikes along with the occasional TOD but TOD is useless against many things in DDO, in particular undead, and constructs so the TOD argument is only valid in certain situations. But answer this... My dark monk is a dex/wis build and a Grandmaster of Storms. How am I going to generate enough Ki to even use my most basic attacks if I am not in Fire? I also haven't been lucky enough to get Oremis yet. TOD is the furthest thing from my mind.

First keep crane - assuming you have IC:B you will still get +3/4 ki per crit - and those happen often on a dex based/wind stance monk. Remember Crane is just a flat -2 fort now so it's better to have the full line.

Second once you find that stunning is no longer a way to build ki but only a way to use it - then you are no longer concerned with stunning everything.

Build ki and use to strike as needed - don't worry about stun locking everything you touch - it isn't going to help ki like it did.

After all that keep in mind that the *intention* is for you not to be able to spam elemental strikes nonstop (as per Eladrin's comments on the change).

You then learn a rhythm that allows you to keep ki up - sometimes you just swing at a mob without striking - just to bet your reserves up. This *will* impact your dps on trash. Bosses are un-stunnable now so it shouldn't change anything on how those fights go.

[edgarallanpoe]

First keep crane - assuming you have IC:B you will still get +3/4 ki per crit - and those happen often on a dex based/wind stance monk. Remember Crane is just a flat -2 fort now so it's better to have the full line.

This particular Monk is a drow so I took Patient Tort to offset his HP loss. Respecing isn't that big of a deal, I know.

Second once you find that stunning is no longer a way to build ki but only a way to use it - then you are no longer concerned with stunning everything.

Build ki and use to strike as needed - don't worry about stun locking everything you touch - it isn't going to help ki like it did.

After all that keep in mind that the *intention* is for you not to be able to spam elemental strikes nonstop (as per Eladrin's comments on the change).

You then learn a rhythm that allows you to keep ki up - sometimes you just swing at a mob without striking - just to bet your reserves up. This *will* impact your dps on trash. Bosses are un-stunnable now so it shouldn't change anything on how those fights go.

Well said and that actually *is* the way I intend to play. It really isn't that much different than what I currently do. If this is indeed the way things work that would be OK. But the reports from Lam say that even this is very difficult to do if not in Fire stance.

[DethTrip]

I know from my own experience in game now that if I forgot to switch back to fire stance, I notice a HUGE loss of ki if I'm in a non insta crit situation, like fighting bosses or against undead or constructs. This is with oremi's and crane. I quickly realize I am gaining next to no ki so I switch back to fire stance. But others that do not use fire stance are going to be hosed because they depend on insta crit for ki gen. You haters keep saying everyone is crying but it's simply not going to be an adequate amount of ki gen unless you have oremi's, fire stance, and crane. A lot of people do NOT want to be pigeonholed into this type of build. Even though my build is the oremi's, fire, and crane build, I am still campaigning for them because it's a real problem. I hope the devs get this right.

[Missing_Minds]

You haters keep saying everyone is crying but it's simply not going to be an adequate amount of ki gen unless you have oremi's, fire stance, and crane. A lot of people do NOT want to be pigeonholed into this type of build. Even though my build is the oremi's, fire, and crane build, I am still campaigning for them because it's a real problem. I hope the devs get this right.

You know what, stop that. All you are doing is trying to inflame people more letting your aggravation get the better of you. If you seriously want to make change happen, you have to take a more mature stance.

Point of perspective: You called it a loss. You can not lose what you did not have. If you want to call it a lack of Ki (compared to what you are used to having), I'm 100% agreeable with that statement.

Also, history reminder. What happened to ToD? It got nerfed. Ever think about why? Because dark monks where whipping it off constantly, as fast as timerly possible. How could they? Plenty of constant Ki. Not even spell casters can keep up with Ki generation and damage like that. It would appear that developers want players to pick and choose when they are going to Ki attack rather than constantly whipping it off whilly nilly.

Pigeon hold will only happen IF players decide they wish to keep the whilly nilly style of spaming Ki attacks.

Is this DDO or Street Fighter? (rhetorical question) The real question for any MMO. "Is it fun." which the counter becomes "Is it over powered?"
All of this easy Ki generation. Personally I do think it was a bit much. However, by that same turn about I do think the to be dramatic drop in ablity to generate Ki is going to stink more than is really warranted.

The only suggestion I've seen so far I've liked is changing the capstone from regeneration to being +1 Ki per hit.We know that Kensai adds Ki, but that doesn't really help lower levels much.

I'm not a fan of changing Ki costs, but here are two more completely random ideas.

1a. Add Ki generating items to the loot tables that isn't high level raid loot.
1b. Add Ki generating property to the crafting tables.

2. New Enhancement for Ki generation.

No, I'm not talking spend AP to gain Ki on any hit. I consider Ki generation to really be related to being balanced. For the cost of 1 AP for each level (max of 4), you increase Ki threat generation. Normally, Ki is generated on any critical. Rather than increasing threat range of the critical, increase Ki threat generation range.
Assuming no IC:Blunt, and lvl 1 of this enhancement, you would generate Ki on any confirmed hit of 19-20. If you had IC:Blunt it would then be generated on rolls of 18-20 as if you had critically hit even though 19 (18 in the latter) are not critical hits.
Give it one per the "stance". So if you had all 4 master stances You could have an increased Ki threat generation of +3, All 4 grand masters, +4, such that with IC:Blunt you could generate Ki on any confermined hit of 15-20.

Now yeah, that would be really expensive given the cost of stats and grandmaster status. But as stated, random idea.

[edgarallanpoe]

Also, history reminder. What happened to ToD? It got nerfed. Ever think about why? Because dark monks where whipping it off constantly, as fast as timerly possible. How could they? Plenty of constant Ki. Not even spell casters can keep up with Ki generation and damage like that. It would appear that developers want players to pick and choose when they are going to Ki attack rather than constantly whipping it off whilly nilly.

*Most*...not all, I know...monk players agreed with that nerf. The ability to use negative energy on undead made absolutely no sense and as such needed to be changed.

Pigeon hold will only happen IF players decide they wish to keep the whilly nilly style of spaming Ki attacks.

Is this DDO or Street Fighter? (rhetorical question) The real question for any MMO. "Is it fun." which the counter becomes "Is it over powered?"
All of this easy Ki generation. Personally I do think it was a bit much. However, by that same turn about I do think the to be dramatic drop in ablity to generate Ki is going to stink more than is really warranted.

The only suggestion I've seen so far I've liked is changing the capstone from regeneration to being +1 Ki per hit.We know that Kensai adds Ki, but that doesn't really help lower levels much.

I'm not a fan of changing Ki costs, but here are two more completely random ideas.

1a. Add Ki generating items to the loot tables that isn't high level raid loot.
1b. Add Ki generating property to the crafting tables.

2. New Enhancement for Ki generation.

No, I'm not talking spend AP to gain Ki on any hit. I consider Ki generation to really be related to being balanced. For the cost of 1 AP for each level (max of 3), you increase Ki threat generation. Normally, Ki is generated on any critical. Rather than increasing threat range of the critical, increase Ki threat generation range.
Assuming no IC:Blunt, and lvl 1 of this enhancement, you would generate Ki on any confirmed hit of 19-20. If you had IC:Blunt it would then be generated on rolls of 18-20 as if you had critically hit even though 19 (18 in the latter) are not critical hit.
Give it one per the "stance". So if you had all 4 master stances You could have an increased Ki threat generation of +3, All 4 grand masters, +4, such that with IC:Blunt you could generate Ki on any confermined hit of 15-20.

Now yeah, that would be really expensive given the cost of stats and grandmaster status. But as stated, random idea.

While I will disagree with your assessment of the pigeon holed issue, this is well said and I can't argue with any of this. + rep on the way.

What is being reported on Lam is that anything other than Fire with Oremi doesn't even generate enough Ki to warrant a SF, let alone any of the other Ki attacks. That does in fact pigeon hole a person into Fire/Crane at the very least. If that is indeed the case, that is really a bummer.

[dumbbunny]

Developers,

Monks need some very serious attention and they need it very soon. This class is probably the most loved in the game but many people are very unhappy with many things about them that still need some serious work. Below is a list of things people would like to see get some much needed attention in the very near future.

1. Ki Generation
2. Stunning fist lower than kensei II or III with monk splash
3. Ninja Spy III
4. Create Henshin Mystic PRE
5. Add more metal handwrap options
.

my perspective(and mostly agreement) on your complaints:

Disagree on the love portion strongly. monk builds although especially monk splashes are pretty overpowered right now. better dr and dps on a pure monk than a pure barb as well as more healing amp typically maybe a little less hp but str/con right now can buff to 700 so no one will complain. as of now monks are probably the most versatile class both for splashing and pure. splashes are more powerful than pure sure but thats always the case. look at the blitz build it is MUCH more powerful than pure fighter or barb but still can cover the tank role as needed with just a little bit of modification.

ki generation: they could use a bit but prioritize. fire stance+oremis gives you a fair amount of ki generation. no its nothing like it was before but... to be honest crane+fire 4 + oremis with autocrit was too much ki so they have a point. if they change capstone to add 1 dmg a swing i wouldnt complain and it would be kind of a middle ground not always strapped for ki but not overloaded with it either. also this makes fire stance a comparable choice pure dps wise because wind no longer has an overabundance of ki while fire is probably tight but not critically so.

stunning fist: does need some love. its a monk ability they should dominate the field in my opinion. however to be honest im not sure with the buff to saves its going to be doable with out adding a tactics line so perhaps give monks tactics line? or maybe 2 tiers of tactics but not all 3? still a bit behind fighters but gives them a boost to all stuns including blow and their ranged stun

ninja spy 3: would be nice

henshin mystic: now your just getting greedy

metaline handwraps: just make it the same min lvl as everyone else(and i mean level 6 not make everyone else lvl 10.) shouldnt be a hard fix doesnt even need to be retroactive though it would be nice. adding 4 levels to our metaline is unnecessary the metallines still exist it just makes the vast majority have to use sub par weapons for raids only. and to be honest on normal and hard most use their greater banes rather than metalline anyway. of course shintao bypasses that but with shintao being the vast majority why penalize the few people who choose to play ninja spy even further than costing them greater bane use for raid bosses. its not like it will beat out shintao but it would be nice to have a viable alternative. of course with crafting there are other reasons to do the metalline for wraps the same as other weapons.... making a metalline shard and putting it on wraps having a different min lvl than weapons is an unnecessary complication. This of all the things listed is the one i think is the least fair and has the least actual limiting impact on the classes dps anyway. unless they chose to nerf shintao so it doesnt bypass.

[AtomicMew]

I keep hearing this and honestly don't understand why anyone would think this.

Yes, there will be a 50% increase to damage on held mobs, BUT there are *several* new wrinkles that severely mitigate this increase.

1. The lack of auto-crit means that the burst effect on wraps doesn't automatically go off.
2. The increase in SF DC means that there will be a lot less stunned mobs.
3. The lack of Ki regen means that there will be a lot less *attempts* at SF to begin with.

Put all 3 of those together and that 50% goes right out the window.

The biggest thing that the anti Monk crowd is not realizing is this...

First, I'm not anti-monk, I'm very pro-monk. 2 of 7 my toons are monks. However, being pro monk doesn't mean anti-logic, it doesn't mean being bad at math, and it certainly doesn't mean monks should be better than everyone. As it is, monks are getting a SERIOUS boost in U9.

1. How much more damage do burst effects do on critical hits? 2x (surprise!) All monk damage is still multiplied by 2x on crits, whereas every other class multiplies by 4x or more. Having more burst effects doesn't make your multiplier any higher.

3. No. Use oremi's.

2. Valid, but offset by the much higher relative DPS monks will be bringing to the table. It just means that you can't stun without investing more effort into it. (And no, maxing STR on a horc with bare minimum WIS is not it.) It also means that pure monk builds will be subpar, so if you're a purist, I can see why you might complain about it.

1. Every stance besides Fire is now useless.
2. Every Path besides Crane is now useless
3. Every Monk must now have Oremis to be useful.

Any other class that would experience the above would be upset. NO class should be pigeonholed like this. It makes no sense.

1. Use. Oremi's.
2. use Oremi's.
3. If you use Oremi's, you have more than enough Ki for SF and ToD and then some. Most monks used Nyoko's before.

[elujin]

First, I'm not anti-monk, I'm very pro-monk. 2 of 7 my toons are monks. However, being pro monk doesn't mean anti-logic, it doesn't mean being bad at math, and it certainly doesn't mean monks should be better than everyone. As it is, monks are getting a SERIOUS boost in U9.

1. How much more damage do burst effects do on critical hits? 2x (surprise!) All monk damage is still multiplied by 2x on crits, whereas every other class multiplies by 4x or more. Having more burst effects doesn't make your multiplier any higher.

3. No. Use oremi's.

2. Valid, but offset by the much higher relative DPS monks will be bringing to the table. It just means that you can't stun without investing more effort into it. (And no, maxing STR on a horc with bare minimum WIS is not it.) It also means that pure monk builds will be subpar, so if you're a purist, I can see why you might complain about it.





1. Use. Oremi's.
2. use Oremi's.
3. If you use Oremi's, you have more than enough Ki for SF and ToD and then some. Most monks used Nyoko's before.

the 50 % dmg increas also includes ki strikes and tod i men triple 750 dmg tod anyone even more if you can scrape the ki to getter for a tripple dark debuff

[TreknaQudane]

1. Use. Oremi's.
2. use Oremi's.
3. If you use Oremi's, you have more than enough Ki for SF and ToD and then some. Most monks used Nyoko's before.

It's rather silly to think that use of a single high level named item should be the end all balance of a class ability that is being reduced in power

[AtomicMew]

It's rather silly to think that use of a single high level named item should be the end all balance of a class ability that is being reduced in power

First of all, it's not "the end all be all" considering that wind stance wasn't even always better than fire stance to begin with. Even in the most idealest if ideal conditions, the maximum DPS difference between wind and fire stance is a few percentage points. During times when AB matters (whoaomg there are times?) fire stance is actually better.

Secondly, Oremi's is super duper barbecueper common. I've vendored at least a dozen of these across all of my 2 characters which are ToD flagged (and yes, I do ask before looting).

Lastly, use fire stance before you get oremi's. (You mean I have to use something other than wind stance???? NuhhhhhhhhhOOoooooooooo!!!!1)

[waterboytkd]

3. No. Use oremi's.

1. Use. Oremi's.
2. use Oremi's.
3. If you use Oremi's, you have more than enough Ki for SF and ToD and then some. Most monks used Nyoko's before.

This is the only thing I don't like. Currently, me dex based shintao in wind stance uses oremi's for all my needed ki gen. It works. I can attest to that. What I don't like is it seems like all non-Fire monks will absolutely need this item, and dark fire monks will need it, too.

I've said it before, on other threads, on this thread, and I'll probably say many more times. The hardest part of playing a monk is that they are very stressed when it comes to gear. ESPECIALLY if you want to have any kind of meaningful AC (and no, I don't mean missed 95% of the time at end game--even if guys miss you 30% of the time, that's meaningful AC). Forcing most monks to use on particular item sucks. Customization in gear is fun. That's why I'm excited about this crafting--hoping it makes gearing monks easier.

That said, if there was a +1 ki on hit thing you could craft with the new crafting, that could really be the answer to everything.

[edgarallanpoe]

1. Use. Oremi's.
2. use Oremi's.
3. If you use Oremi's, you have more than enough Ki for SF and ToD and then some. Most monks used Nyoko's before

1. I don't have it yet.
2. I don't have it yet.
3. I don't have it yet.

What now?...I know...I know...Get Oremis. Don't you see the problem with that? Why should a single piece of gear *completely* dominate a toon?

FWIW My anti-monk comment wasn't directed specifically at you, it was towards several posts in the thread.

Lastly, use fire stance before you get oremi's. (You mean I have to use something other than wind stance???? NuhhhhhhhhhOOoooooooooo!!!!1)

Ugh....why should I have to? I built my monk to be a Grandmaster of Storms.

the 50 % dmg increas also includes ki strikes and tod i men triple 750 dmg tod anyone even more if you can scrape the ki to getter for a tripple dark debuff

Which part of the fact that monks aren't generating enough Ki to fire TOD, let alone a TOD preceded by a debuff escapes you. Great...I can do 750hp on a strike I can't use.

[akillith]

Look I'll be the first to say, with a monk as my main, that yes we get much love from the devs. Is this unfair, maybe. We aren't arguing that here though because that is off topic. what we are distressed about is the impracticality of the class being pigeon holed into using one thing (oremi) to make our class useful, it's impractical. Most of the arguments made against our complaints are to be creative, and at the same time you're telling us to do one thing (oremi). Missing mind has come up with a few good points and I + rep'd him for his good arguments, although I do not agree with them. I like wind stance. I like using dex as a monk. I don't care if it's only a percent difference of damage vs. Fire stance. I just want to be able to play my monk, the WAY I want to play my monk. By reducing ki regen to THIS extent it limits my play options to be forced to use Oremi, and fire stance. I don't care if I am not top tier DPS, but I'd like to be able to use the abilities I'm given as often as others do, and be able to make different builds rather than being funneled into one or two variants of the same thing. Yes ToD was op'd, and it was nerfed and I agree with said nerf. Now saying all this I feel that other classes should also be attended to at a more reasonable rate, though that's a bit off topic and I apologize. Anyways that's my view of the issue.

[edgarallanpoe]

Look I'll be the first to say, with a monk as my main, that yes we get much love from the devs. Is this unfair, maybe. We aren't arguing that here though because that is off topic. what we are distressed about is the impracticality of the class being pigeon holed into using one thing (oremi) to make our class useful, it's impractical. Most of the arguments made against our complaints are to be creative, and at the same time you're telling us to do one thing (oremi). Missing mind has come up with a few good points and I + rep'd him for his good arguments, although I do not agree with them. I like wind stance. I like using dex as a monk. I don't care if it's only a percent difference of damage vs. Fire stance. I just want to be able to play my monk, the WAY I want to play my monk. By reducing ki regen to THIS extent it limits my play options to be forced to use Oremi, and fire stance. I don't care if I am not top tier DPS, but I'd like to be able to use the abilities I'm given as often as others do, and be able to make different builds rather than being funneled into one or two variants of the same thing. Yes ToD was op'd, and it was nerfed and I agree with said nerf. Now saying all this I feel that other classes should also be attended to at a more reasonable rate, though that's a bit off topic and I apologize. Anyways that's my view of the issue.

Well done...especially the part I placed in bold. Amazing how that goes right over the naysayers heads.

[CrosisBlackwing]

My Dark Monk has an Oremi's and only 2 Tiers of Crane, using Wind Stance, here are my findings:

1. Whenever something is in auto-crit I have more Ki than I can use (Dark btw) I can spam all 3 Earth Strikes, the Finisher, ToD, and the Storm strikes IF I mash fast enough.

2. When I am beating down High HP mobs (Trash) that are not held, Oremi's is Enough to keep my Strike use at a level rate (ToD and Earth+Storm)

3. When fighting bosses my Ki slowly dwindled until I have to lay off of Storm strikes for about 5 seconds before I can begin to re-spam them. No real issue here.

3. When I used Fire, I COULD NEVER USE ALL OF MY KI. I had WAY more than ever necessary, and had to mash wildly to avoid filling my entire bar with yellow every couple seconds.

I doubt this "change" to Ki generation will be all that bad. It just means you can't mash keys at all times, something you couldn't do before. It will be like leveling up before every battle is Mass Hold+Beatdown.

[QuantumFX]

nonsense, the only monk abilities that benefits from tactis DC are stunning fist and kukan-do. and stunning fist should not be monk-only to begin with...
the majority of monk abilities with a DC are not affected by tactics.

Try reading the comment before posting useless replies to it. Monks have no DC increasing enhancements for *any* of their stunning abilities, insta death abilities, finishers, or elemental attacks.

Since you demonstrate a distinct lack of knowledge of the game here is a shortlist:

All Monks:
Stunning Fist
Quivering Palm
Eagle Claw
Unbalancing Strike
4 Elemental Finishers
Shining Star

Shintao monk specific:
Kukan Do
Jade Strike
Banishing Fist
Tomb of Jade

Ninja-Spy specific:
Touch of Death
5 Dark Finishers

Now let’s compare this to fighters:
Stunning Blow/Stunning Fist
Trip/Improved Trip (Which also has a higher save than regular trip)
Sunder/Improved Sunder (Which also has a higher save than regular Sunder)

on the other hand tactics moves are the only DC abilities a fighter has.

Except for all the damage enhancements, weapon enhancements, and boosts.

fighters should rightfully be the master of combact tactics, it's the main distinctive trait of their gameplay.

If we were comparing Fighters to barbarians you *might* have a point. However, monk abilities are an even more distinctive element of their gameplay. Claiming that one class should get it and another shouldn’t is idiotic.

[AtomicMew]

What now?...I know...I know...Get Oremis. Don't you see the problem with that? Why should a single piece of gear *completely* dominate a toon?

No, you just do what every other toon does before getting X piece of gear. Oh and it doesn't *Dominate* your toon. You can still use SF ON RECHARGE and TOD ~3.5 times per minute with just fire stance.

Well done...especially the part I placed in bold. Amazing how that goes right over the naysayers heads.

No, actually, it's you who doesn't understand. Guess how many casters either want or use a Torc? Guess how many fighters use or want Lit II's? Oh and, guess how many monks use or want Nyoko's?

That Oremi's will be optimal instead of Nyoko's doesn't pigeonhole monks any more than it was before.