Developers, Monks Need Love!

[Soleran]

Oh I know. And I can just imagine the hours upon hours that the devs scurried about trying to make it happen. And instead monks got another crafting system geared towards them to "compensate"... The least the poor sods can get now is to keep it along with deconstruction crafting. Holy Burst GEOB with Shocking Burst with Awesome Blast on top. You want Silver with that?

Don't worry. Knowing the DDO devs you will get some compensation soon for this absolute outrage. Some new nifty Epic handwraps -aquired by killing three 0.25 CR kobolds - that slays everything all the time in 30 feet radius sounds about right.

Silly sarcasm post in a thread asking for input on ideas, you're creativity and well thought out sarcastic post is still just a troll post.

That said ninja 3 would be nice changing the monk capstone to gaining ki on strikes rather then passively would be nice as well other then that I'm pleased with the monk class.

I've been playing wind stance and shintao set now to see how the ki will play out with the new changes and its ugly but it is what it is atm change to capstone would help.

[DrunkenBuddha]

You don't think the testers on Lam think this way? Again, this isn't what they are reporting...go to the Lam discussions and read the threads. These are not n00bs who don't know what they are doing, these are experienced Monk players and they are reporting that what you propose aint happenin....

That is my concern as well. I agree that the ki generation needed a nerf - but not in the manner by which they did it and not to that extent. If you no longer have enough ki to do anything but do a SF every now and then, what is the point of all the other elemental strikes? Dark monks take forever now to even build up enough ki for TOD - and only by using Oremi and Fire stance exclusively. In fact, that is the only way to even generate any ki at all now. No more Wind stance for additional procs. No more Shintao cords. Everyone, everyone, needs Oremi and Sun to generate ANY ki. I am not talking about being able to toss quivering, SF, TOD, etc willy-nilly - I am talking about using one and not seeing any ki for a long time. I don't see the point of having a ki bar that has the potential for 200+ but never getting more than 10, its like having a Gremlin with a speedometer that tops out at 240.

Monk were fairly balanced imo otherwise, immunities, ff ability, TOD with save, etc, but with crappy handwrap mods, dmg entirely dependent upon grinding TOD, horrible crit mods, etc. But now to make every monk the same just to generate ki? To make SF more effective on monk splashes than pure? I agree that a nerf may have been necessary - I am concerned about the collateral consequences though.

[DethTrip]

Well, thanks trollers. Try to make a positive thread and get neg repped twice. There are some real cowards in this world.

[t0r012]

to me the number 1 problem is the ki gen.
we get all this cool stuff as monks , i'd love to be able to use it.

kensais getting stun DCs higher than a monk , well I can live with that. no reason a tactics fighter shouldn't be able to get the best DCs.

Ninja spy 3 eh, would be nice. Yet losing all that ki for ToDs seems to me to be hurting them more.

if they could do something with ki gen i'd be happy. being able to play a monk with my nifty monk stuff is what i'm after. ki strikes/finishers , abundant step , quivering palm , jade tomb , dismissal, all the unique monk goodies. It seems to me they will be going away.
Will we get a damage boost from crafted handwraps vs bosses? sure if you can find the base ingredients. Thats not what I love playing monk for.


I'd give up my bursting rings to be able to generate my ki. Which to me is what makes monks. If I wanted to be the top DPS monkey i'd be playing a dual kopesh assassin or a FB barb.

[Logicman69]

You evidently don't realize we are talking after U9 takes effect, not what player's monks currently do. Not sure why all the "top tier" discussion is being thrown into this either. No one complained about wanting top tier dps. The complaints are right there on the list. And again, this thread was made with the intention to create a list of what monk issues players believe need attention. If you do NOT believe that monks need attention, then your comments are not needed or wanted for that matter. If you have some positive ideas, then lets hear them. Haters always have to come into threads and derail them. Quit trolling and find something better to do.

Sorry, but if this is a mod9 discussion, it should be on the Lam forums. If there is a problem with Ki generation, then we should be discussing it there and not in the open forums. Mod 9 has not gone live yet and some changes could be made (though I will say I doubt it, judging by the track record). We really should not be flying the "DOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM" flag just yet.

With all that being said, I would love to see the Henshin Mystic line of pre's get instated soon. I envision this line getting more Ki generation (solving some of the upcoming problems), and doing some extending of the monk buffs (possibly getting both light and dark buffs, and having them extend in durration like a spell does.. 1 minute at level 1 and an additional 30 seconds every 4 levels after that).

In the meantime, I think there are other things the developers could be looking at. Rogues getting a HUGE nerf to their vorpal attack, and I think the Barb pre's need some varriaty.

[Thuriaz]

In a very real sense what we are seeing is a baseline change to monks viability right out of the box, and even latter on. Lets take a look at basic builds.

Fighter 20: Max strength, 16 dex, the rest in con. Rely on +1dex tome or allocate 1levelup into Dex, all remaining level ups in STR, Kensai Teir III, you wind up with good to hit, good stun, great dps.

Monk 20: 16 STR, 16dex, MUST have a +1 dex tome, 14 Con?, Remainder in Wis? Terrible to hit, low DC unless you pump wis or have past lifes OR +4 wis tomes to make up for it, level ups in STR if you want to land hits, wis if you want to land specials, which really means handicapped specials one way or the other. No matter how you build this as a pure, it fails, it starts out failing and it gets worse.

Alternative:

Monk 20: 10 - 12 Str, 14 Con, 16~ Wis, 16Dex all levelups in Dex in an effort to obtain a reasonable to hit (which will still fail), and still fairly poor DC's unless your eating a +2 or +3 Tome. You could go all level ups in wis if you were half elf rogue but your still generating enough ki to launch TOD what... once per quest assuming you zerg, are the first face the monsters see, AND you live through all of them ganging you since your out of fire stance to maintain to hit. Sounds pretty unviable to me.

Alternative:

Monk 20: 18 Wis, 14 Con, the rest in STR and all levelups in STR, forget about having ANYTHING approaching DPS of any other TWF, just rely on the monks minor speed advantage to even the gap (still something like a 70 - 80% gap) in DPS so that you can have terrible DPS but still be generating Ki in fire stance, still have a decent to hit land, and have DC's that will matter... oh yeah that's balanced now your just a melee caster without the benefits of all the self buffing... brilliant

My point? Yeah monks are suffering from MAD and I hate to be the one to say that. Terrible to hit, terrible DC's, they make a balanced bard build look like a "Master of all Trades" in comparison with how LITTLE they bring. Your better off rolling up a warchanter with 12/14 CHA, using your fascinate for CC, and UMDing heal scrolls while swinging the very best great Axe and all levelups in STR. You'll not only out DPS the monk, you'll bring a viable, useful capable ability to the party while providing GOOD DPS in comparison.

I don't want monks to be "Barbarian Powered" but lets look at what the class is supposed to bring just by what it's given.

Good DPS - Only if built to exclude everything else.
Good CC - Not possible, not enough Ki to really CC effectively and too low a DC's
Good Special Attacks - That you won't ever be able to use.
Survivability - That goes RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW in Epics.
Unique Immunities - That every Warforged already has.
Good AC - Only at the complete exclusion of Good DPS, though you might get the DC's higher by focusing on this, you'll never LAND the hits, and worse yet you will have even LESS KI to use them

So what are we left with?

"Kung Fu Looks cool"

So does archery, role an Arcane Archer, it's a FREE class.

All of that being said, here are some things they CAN do to make monks more viable.

#1) increase the "Stored Ki" from the Concentration score by 100% (so if your concentration levels you out to say a 45, it should be at about a 90 so you can BANK Ki in unimportant fights and save it to be more useful or... heaven forbid have enough to land finishing/specials as needed.

#2) As an alternative to #1) Increase Ki generated in ALL stances by +1.

#3) as an alternative to #1 and #2, give Monks a 5 times per day "Ki Surge" ability that regains X amount of Ki (because meditation the group WILL NOT WAIT FOR and you can't use IN A FIGHT.

#4) As an alternative to the above, perhaps allow "Multiple Stance Mastery" one someone has mastery in Fire and Wind for instance let them take a "Fire Storm" Stance that gives the benefits of both, it still ties most Ki gen into fire but at least it's not GAME BREAKINGLY SO.

[DethTrip]

Sorry, but if this is a mod9 discussion, it should be on the Lam forums. If there is a problem with Ki generation, then we should be discussing it there and not in the open forums. Mod 9 has not gone live yet and some changes could be made (though I will say I doubt it, judging by the track record). We really should not be flying the "DOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM" flag just yet.

You are right, it may have been best to put this thread there to begin with although I wanted to add things that had nothing to do with U9 like the PRE lines.

Added Henshin Mystic to the list and put the list in order of importance.

[edgarallanpoe]

Sorry, but if this is a mod9 discussion, it should be on the Lam forums. If there is a problem with Ki generation, then we should be discussing it there and not in the open forums. Mod 9 has not gone live yet and some changes could be made (though I will say I doubt it, judging by the track record). We really should not be flying the "DOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM" flag just yet.

In the Op's defense the thread didn't start that way.

[Emili]

Bards need more love.

Bards need their PrEs finished.

Monks have a lot more stuff in the game available. Bards have only a few items and those items focus on song regen and isn't worth having.

I don't think monks need more love right now.

What is strange is Bards had the first tier of PrE before anyone else ... and it took them four years to add the second tiers. Then we have these other classes which are bout two years old asking to finish theirs.

[Missing_Minds]

Dead wrong...

By greatly reducing our Ki regen they have essentially removed a lot of our attacks. Several monk players on Lam are reporting that they can't generate enough Ki to use *anything* other than stunning fist. They say the generating the 50 Ki needed for TOD is near impossible.

Dead wrong is your statement of dead wrong. You've already admitted that you are not losing them in any fashion.

What all monks are having happen is that an easy method to generate Ki is being changed. The whiny, grumpy nature of all of these posts, if anything, are going to keep a change from coming.

Post actual numbers in quests on normal, elite, hard, and epic. Yes, go gather actual data vs. talking about point of view observation/speculation. Numbers and polite requests, asking Eladrin to review Ki generation will get players a LOT farther than this constant whine.

Of course you do realize if they keep the Ki generation as it is, the request to make ToD have no save (like it use to) would become very valid again.
Quarter staff users were able to get the original Life draining effect (aka neg levels on any crit) back due to this combat change.

[Missing_Minds]

Well, thanks trollers. Try to make a positive thread and get neg repped twice. There are some real cowards in this world.

With a highschool popularty rep system, what do you expect?

And no, I did not neg you at all.

[Missing_Minds]

and if you want to keep calling people names chief thats is fine by me, but let the rest of us have a grown up discussion.

Oh really?

I mention the fact that monks get a whole lot of abilities, and what was your retort specifically to "fast movement". (even though many fell in near the same lines.)

great since we can't kill or stun now i guess being able to run away really fast is important now

My retort to your "grown up discussion" stands.

[Westerner]

/steveballmer_on
Developers, developers, developers, developers!

[Missing_Minds]

Not asking for top tier DPS. You didn't read the list apparently. I, as well as many other monk players, are asking for adequate ki gen, effective stunning fist, and the ninja spy III PRE. To you monk haters, please hijack another thread. This one is to gather ideas of monk issues that need attention. Not a thread for discussing whether you think they need attention or not. If you have no positive ideas, then *&^% off.

When I read your first list, which only had 1 and 2 if I recall correctly. 1 could very well be an issue, but the 2nd is a cry about DPS as much as it is about Ki generation.

Your current 3 and 4 are the same calls as pretty much any other class.

For the perceived "hate" I do apologize. FYI I have a few monks and I am NOT jumping on the bandwagon of forumites screaming doom. If anything I'm going "ooh... a challenge. Lets see what we can do." For a change, an easy button is removed.

[Emili]

In a very real sense what we are seeing is a baseline change to monks viability right out of the box, and even latter on. Lets take a look at basic builds.

Fighter 20: Max strength, 16 dex, the rest in con. Rely on +1dex tome or allocate 1levelup into Dex, all remaining level ups in STR, Kensai Teir III, you wind up with good to hit, good stun, great dps.

Monk 20: 16 STR, 16dex, MUST have a +1 dex tome, 14 Con?, Remainder in Wis? Terrible to hit, low DC unless you pump wis or have past lifes OR +4 wis tomes to make up for it, level ups in STR if you want to land hits, wis if you want to land specials, which really means handicapped specials one way or the other. No matter how you build this as a pure, it fails, it starts out failing and it gets worse.

Alternative:

Monk 20: 10 - 12 Str, 14 Con, 16~ Wis, 16Dex all levelups in Dex in an effort to obtain a reasonable to hit (which will still fail), and still fairly poor DC's unless your eating a +2 or +3 Tome. You could go all level ups in wis if you were half elf rogue but your still generating enough ki to launch TOD what... once per quest assuming you zerg, are the first face the monsters see, AND you live through all of them ganging you since your out of fire stance to maintain to hit. Sounds pretty unviable to me.

Alternative:

Monk 20: 18 Wis, 14 Con, the rest in STR and all levelups in STR, forget about having ANYTHING approaching DPS of any other TWF, just rely on the monks minor speed advantage to even the gap (still something like a 70 - 80% gap) in DPS so that you can have terrible DPS but still be generating Ki in fire stance, still have a decent to hit land, and have DC's that will matter... oh yeah that's balanced now your just a melee caster without the benefits of all the self buffing... brilliant

My point? Yeah monks are suffering from MAD and I hate to be the one to say that. Terrible to hit, terrible DC's, they make a balanced bard build look like a "Master of all Trades" in comparison with how LITTLE they bring. Your better off rolling up a warchanter with 12/14 CHA, using your fascinate for CC, and UMDing heal scrolls while swinging the very best great Axe and all levelups in STR. You'll not only out DPS the monk, you'll bring a viable, useful capable ability to the party while providing GOOD DPS in comparison.

I don't want monks to be "Barbarian Powered" but lets look at what the class is supposed to bring just by what it's given.

Good DPS - Only if built to exclude everything else.
Good CC - Not possible, not enough Ki to really CC effectively and too low a DC's
Good Special Attacks - That you won't ever be able to use.
Survivability - That goes RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW in Epics.
Unique Immunities - That every Warforged already has.
Good AC - Only at the complete exclusion of Good DPS, though you might get the DC's higher by focusing on this, you'll never LAND the hits, and worse yet you will have even LESS KI to use them

So what are we left with?

"Kung Fu Looks cool"

So does archery, role an Arcane Archer, it's a FREE class.

All of that being said, here are some things they CAN do to make monks more viable.

#1) increase the "Stored Ki" from the Concentration score by 100% (so if your concentration levels you out to say a 45, it should be at about a 90 so you can BANK Ki in unimportant fights and save it to be more useful or... heaven forbid have enough to land finishing/specials as needed.

#2) As an alternative to #1) Increase Ki generated in ALL stances by +1.

#3) as an alternative to #1 and #2, give Monks a 5 times per day "Ki Surge" ability that regains X amount of Ki (because meditation the group WILL NOT WAIT FOR and you can't use IN A FIGHT.

#4) As an alternative to the above, perhaps allow "Multiple Stance Mastery" one someone has mastery in Fire and Wind for instance let them take a "Fire Storm" Stance that gives the benefits of both, it still ties most Ki gen into fire but at least it's not GAME BREAKINGLY SO.

The whole idea of the changes in U9 with KI generation was the devs viewed infinite KI was not a good thing... they felt KI strikes should be special attacks and not made on each and every mob repeatedly over and over and over... When playing my monk I think I understand where the devs get this logic... because I do find myself constantly button mashing KI strikes.

... as to the question of stunning fists vs a kensie's stunning blow... I appologize for the synergies of a 12/8 or 18/2 fighter/monk towards stuns but you must realize also when it comes to unarmed attack that the build is lacking monk's damage die advancements, many of the monks enhancements in KI strikes and a ton of other advantages a monk get past level 8. Just the thought of the save reductions in reflex and will from 12 fighter makes me wonder if they might manage a reasonable reflex to make evasion work in many end-game areas.

[elujin]

mebey i am wrong but isn't 50% extra helpless dmg a huge dps increas for monks relative to the outher classes and how they are hit by u9 helpless changes

[elujin]

Well, thanks trollers. Try to make a positive thread and get neg repped twice. There are some real cowards in this world.

oh and +1 for unfair neg rep

[Shade]

As long as monks keep selling well on the DDO store, they will always get love.

They are after all the most expensive class, and thus always get the most attention.

Despite that, people still want more. I find it amusing, but hey.. Good business for turbine I guess. Everytime they get attention, thats more money int the bank.

Monks are and have always been a major focus for almost every single update, including the current one. It was has been mentioned monks Ninja Spy III is the next PrE to be released.

Monks will likely get all 3 of there full PrES long before some clases get a single tier3.. Much les more then 1 to pick from.

[Emili]

mebey i am wrong but isn't 50% extra helpless dmg a huge dps increas for monks relative to the outher classes and how they are hit by u9 helpless changes

Yes, they got nerfed the least out of every other class in terms of DPS they should average close to the same as before U9 while other classes take more of a hit...

[Soleran]

The whole idea of the changes in U9 with KI generation was the devs viewed infinite KI was not a good thing... they felt KI strikes should be special attacks and not made on each and every mob repeatedly over and over and over... When playing my monk I think I understand where the devs get this logic... because I do find myself constantly button mashing KI strikes.

... as to the question of stunning fists vs a kensie's stunning blow... I appologize for the synergies of a 12/8 or 18/2 fighter/monk towards stuns but you must realize also when it comes to unarmed attack that the build is lacking monk's damage die advancements, many of the monks enhancements in KI strikes and a ton of other advantages a monk get past level 8. Just the thought of the save reductions in reflex and will from 12 fighter makes me wonder if they might manage a reasonable reflex to make evasion work in many end-game areas.

A 12 fighter 8 monk (assuming godhand type build wf) will have same immunities, better ki regen, more dps and better stunning then a pure 20 monk.

You forget that fighters get kensei bonuses and feats(enhancements also) to overcome die damage so a tr would be 2d6 fists plus 7 fighter and the fighter gets haste and can effectively use SF and SB with the upcoming changes using windstance for 5% doublestrike etc etc etc this build isn't lacking anything a 20 monk has except 10 epic dr and absolute FF.

It would be nice for a capstone change to address ki regen since really the monk capstone is very lackluster to begin with , 10 concentration and 1 passive to regen.