Are higher-level spells any better than the lower-level ones?

[hargob]

Let's look at a few of the spells that have been changed and see. I'm only looking at the damage-dealing spells, since that seems to be the main focus of this spell revamp. I'm going to list the damage they do at various caster levels.
(scroll down if you don't care about the numbers)

Single-Target Spells Effectiveness at Various Levels:

Scorching Ray: 20 avg damage per ray. 6 sp.
Melf's Acid Arrow: (2d4 + 1/caster level) per tick over 12 seconds. 6 sp.
Frost Lance: 32 avg damage per ray. 8 sp. Fortitude save for half damage.
Burning Blood: (4d4+2/caster level) per tick over 12 seconds. 8 sp.
Disintegrate: 10/caster level average. 20 sp. Fort save for almost no damage.

Level 3:
Scorching Ray: 20
Melf's Acid Arrow: 8 per tick (about 48 total)

Level 7:
Scorching Ray: 40
Melf's Acid Arrow: 12 per tick (about 72 total)
Frost Lance: 64
Burning Blood: 24 per tick (about 144 total)

Level 11:
Scorching Ray: 60
Melf's Acid Arrow: 16 per tick (about 96 total)
Frost Lance: 96
Burning Blood: 32 per tick (about 192 total)
Disintegrate: 110

Level 15:
Scorching Ray: 60
Melf's Acid Arrow: 20 per tick (about 120 total)
Frost Lance: 96
Burning Blood: 40 per tick (about 240 total)
Disintegrate: 150

Level 20:
Scorching Ray: 60
Melf's Acid Arrow: 25 per tick (about 150 total)
Frost Lance: 96
Burning Blood: 50 per tick (about 300 total)
Disintegrate: 200

Summary:

Melf's appears to be a much better choice over Scorching Ray at higher levels than at lower levels. My suggestion is to stop Melf's from increasing all the way to CL 20. It probably shouldn't be used past level 10 or so anyway.

However, Burning Blood appears to be the king here, with crazy damage over time, no save, and huge total damage. It's a better version of Melf's Acid Arrow that only costs 2 more sp, but it deals double damage! It pretty much destroys everything but Disintegrate. Disintegrate might be useful here, but its save makes it a lot less attractive than Burning Blood. Even Polar Ray deals only about 125 damage at CL 25, and it's an eighth level spell!

But wait! I can Maximize and Empower Disintegrate, and it'll be more useful, right? Its sp cost is a lot more than Burning Blood, so it should make it more attractive when you factor the costs of the metamagics.
Max + Emp Disintegrate: 500 Damage (not too shabby), 70 sp.
Max + Emp Burning Blood: 125 Damage per tick (750 total), 48 sp.
Well, for a spell that requires a save, I'd rather not use 70 sp for a possible 500 damage when I could use 48 sp for a guaranteed 125 per second. I could use Heighten, but that would make it even less sp efficient.

But what about the multi-target spells?

Multiple-Target Spells Effectiveness at Various Levels:
(note: I didn't include the various cloud spells)

Acid Rain: (1d6/caster level) per tick over 8 seconds. 12 sp.
Wall of Fire: (2d6 + 1/caster level) per tick over 30 seconds. 35 sp.
Ice Storm: (3d6 + 1/caster level) per tick over 30 seconds. 25 sp.
Cone of Cold / Ball Lightning[/b]: 5/caster level average. 20 sp. Reflex save for half.
Chain Lightning / Otiluke's Freezing Sphere: 5/caster level average. 20 sp. Reflex save for half.

Level 7:
Acid Rain: 24.5 per tick (98 total)
Wall of Fire: 14 per tick (210 total)
Ice Storm: 17.5 per tick (262 total)

Level 15:
Acid Rain: 52.5 per tick (210 total)
Wall of Fire: 22 per tick (330 total)
Ice Storm: 25.5 per tick (382 total)
Cone of Cold: 75
Chain Lightning: 75

Level 20:
Acid Rain: 52.5 per tick (210 total)
Wall of Fire: 27 per tick (405 total)
Ice Storm: 25.5 per tick (382 total)
Cone of Cold: 75
Chain Lightning: 100
Meteor Swarm: 160 (from all four meteors)

Summary:

So, Acid Rain appears to do about twice the damage of Wall of Fire. At lower levels, Wall of Fire is pretty comparable. However, at the mid levels (when one would typically be relying on Wall of Fire), Acid Rain blows it out of the water. It has a lower sp cost, deals damage twice as fast, and (at level 15) deals almost as much total damage as Wall of Fire in about 1/3 of the time.

The argument could be made that Wall of Fire is a fire-and forget spell, since you can cast it and let it deal damage for 30 seconds. But wait! In that time, you could cast Acid Rain, wait 22 seconds, and cast it again. You'd deal more total damage for about 10 less sp.

Not only that, it appears to outclass Cone of Cold and Chain Lightning (both of which allow saves) at even high levels. Only Meteor Swarm deals reasonably close damage. At the level that these spells are used, Acid Rain is far to powerful to bother with anything else.

On the plus side, it appears that Wall of Fire seems pretty balanced in regards to the direct damage spells, but it seems to have a cost much higher than comparative damage over time spells. Also, it seems about equal to Ice Storm now.

So, are the higher-level spells any better than their lower-level counterparts?

[Infant]

People report from Lammania that they only get 3 ticks instead of four out of Acid Rain. And even those are hard to obtain due to short duration, so it could be rather 2 ticks.

On stationary targets its still nice though...

Infant

[Cartheron]

No, 4 are hard to obtain. 3 are standard, if you will manage to keep mobs inside rain (web, mass hold, shield block, whatever).

[richieelias27]

Melf's appears to be a much better choice over Scorching Ray at higher levels than at lower levels. My suggestion is to stop Melf's from increasing all the way to CL 20. It probably shouldn't be used past level 10 or so anyway.

However, Burning Blood appears to be the king here, with crazy damage over time, no save, and huge total damage. It's a better version of Melf's Acid Arrow that only costs 2 more sp, but it deals double damage! It pretty much destroys everything but Disintegrate. Disintegrate might be useful here, but its save makes it a lot less attractive than Burning Blood. Even Polar Ray deals only about 125 damage at CL 25, and it's an eighth level spell!

But wait! I can Maximize and Empower Disintegrate, and it'll be more useful, right? Its sp cost is a lot more than Burning Blood, so it should make it more attractive when you factor the costs of the metamagics.
Max + Emp Disintegrate: 500 Damage (not too shabby), 70 sp.
Max + Emp Burning Blood: 125 Damage per tick (750 total), 48 sp.
Well, for a spell that requires a save, I'd rather not use 70 sp for a possible 500 damage when I could use 48 sp for a guaranteed 125 per second. I could use Heighten, but that would make it even less sp efficient.

You flat out ignore the damage per second vs damage over time factor. How many times can you cast Disintegrate/Scorching Ray/Polar Ray in the time that it takes Melfs/Blood to do its full damage? This absolutely is a factor in the value of the spell. Also, doesnt Burning Blood allow a fortitude save on every tick or did they remove that?

But what about the multi-target spells?

So, Acid Rain appears to do about twice the damage of Wall of Fire. At lower levels, Wall of Fire is pretty comparable. However, at the mid levels (when one would typically be relying on Wall of Fire), Acid Rain blows it out of the water. It has a lower sp cost, deals damage twice as fast, and (at level 15) deals almost as much total damage as Wall of Fire in about 1/3 of the time.

The argument could be made that Wall of Fire is a fire-and forget spell, since you can cast it and let it deal damage for 30 seconds. But wait! In that time, you could cast Acid Rain, wait 22 seconds, and cast it again. You'd deal more total damage for about 10 less sp.

Not only that, it appears to outclass Cone of Cold and Chain Lightning (both of which allow saves) at even high levels. Only Meteor Swarm deals reasonably close damage. At the level that these spells are used, Acid Rain is far to powerful to bother with anything else.

On the plus side, it appears that Wall of Fire seems pretty balanced in regards to the direct damage spells, but it seems to have a cost much higher than comparative damage over time spells. Also, it seems about equal to Ice Storm now.

So, are the higher-level spells any better than their lower-level counterparts?

You are all over the place here. First off, at level 20 WoF clearly outclasses Acid Rain in total damage (At almost twice the damage of Acid Rain), yet you choose to only focus on damage per tick. You then make the point that you ignored with single target spells (recasting) in favor of Acid Rain. Ideally though, one would be using both anyway. You then proceed to ignore this tactic again with Acid Rain vs Cone of Cold and Meteor Swarm. Why?

When comparing DoTs to Single shot spells, there is much more to consider than just How much damage is done with one single casting. Burst damage is just as important as mana efficiency. In addition, you might also want to consider: ease of use and area of effect. For instance, Acid Rain pretty much requires your targets to be locked down in order to apply the full DoT and has a delay before applying damage. WoF is much more forgiving.

[locus]

Don't forget having to spec to a enhancement line that does not benefit other big damaging spells (WoF), so melf's is really not a choice for most people, and it will be even less of a choice come next update when the enhancement lines split even further. Comparisons with MM/Force Missiles would probably be better than a DoT spell in a spec most people don't take.

edit: Oh wait, is acid rain getting majorly buffed? Nevermind the above then (Wow, balance o.O)

[hargob]

You flat out ignore the damage per second vs damage over time factor. How many times can you cast Disintegrate/Scorching Ray/Polar Ray in the time that it takes Melfs/Blood to do its full damage? This absolutely is a factor in the value of the spell. Also, doesnt Burning Blood allow a fortitude save on every tick or did they remove that?

You make some valid points. In my original post, I didn't compare the amount of times you can cast the instant-damage spells. Obviously, you would want to use both, but the problem comes when you look at the sp costs of both. I could spam Polar Ray all day long, and it would far outclass the damage from Burning Blood, but it would cost me a ton of SP. Burning Blood costs 8. 8 sp for 50 damage every two seconds. If they want people to use direct damage spells more, they have to be more sp efficient. Unless I'm wrong, you can cast Polar Ray about three or four times in about 12 seconds. This is probably different, but I'm not sure. (I don't know the stats for Sorc, but I guess it's about five or six?)

If a Sorcerer casts Polar Ray six times it deals about 750 damage and costs 90 sp.
If I cast Polar Ray four times it deals about 500 damage and costs me 60 sp.
If I cast Burning Blood once it deals 300 damage and costs me 8 sp.

Those two costs seem slightly out of whack. Even more so when you consider that Polar Ray is supposed to be better! It's four spell levels higher! I could just Maximize Burning Blood and come off cheaper. That's probably not intended. This is also assuming that you can get Polar Ray up to CL 25.

Also, Burning Blood does not have a save listed anymore, and I never noticed any enemies saving against it, so I assume it has none.

You are all over the place here. First off, at level 20 WoF clearly outclasses Acid Rain in total damage (At almost twice the damage of Acid Rain), yet you choose to only focus on damage per tick. You then make the point that you ignored with single target spells (recasting) in favor of Acid Rain. Ideally though, one would be using both anyway. You then proceed to ignore this tactic again with Acid Rain vs Cone of Cold and Meteor Swarm. Why?

When comparing DoTs to Single shot spells, there is much more to consider than just How much damage is done with one single casting. Burst damage is just as important as mana efficiency. In addition, you might also want to consider: ease of use and area of effect. For instance, Acid Rain pretty much requires your targets to be locked down in order to apply the full DoT and has a delay before applying damage. WoF is much more forgiving.

Wall of Fire does deal twice as much damage, but Acid Rain deals it much faster. It also costs about 12 sp versus Wall of Fire's 35. As I said, you only have to cast Acid Rain twice in a 30 second period to get about the same effect, and it costs you 10 less sp! You could easily cast it three times and deal more damage over about 32 seconds for 1 sp more!

Also, from my testing, Acid Rain does indeed deal damage as soon as enemies walk into it, just like Wall of Fire does. Wall of Fire, however, now requires a save, meaning that Acid Rain deals damage faster and at least once. Wall of Fire, with the Reflex save change, actually does require enemies to stand in it for a while to deal damage reliably.

Look at the damage of Cone of Cold versus one tick of Acid Rain. It's pretty close. That's ridiculous. Acid Rain deals that damage 3 times (it does indeed only tick 3, not four times) and costs less sp. I know I wouldn't bother with a spell that only deals slightly more damage and allows a save for half. Even Chain Lightning or Otiluke's Freezing Sphere only deal about twice Acid Rain's instant damage, and they both cost 25 sp. But what if I spammed them?

Cone of Cold, three times, 225 damage, 60 sp.
Chain Lightning, three times, 300 damage, 75 sp.
Acid Rain, once, 150 damage, 12 sp.

They certainly deal a lot of damage pretty fast, but look at the SP cost! This is also spamming these spells as fast as possible (if Wizard), and that means no time for much else. Also, be aware that all these spells except Acid Rain allow saves for half damage. Unless you NEED that damage as fast as possible and don't care at all about sp, you're gonna use the better solution.

Better Solution: Maximized Acid Rain, once, 300 damage, 37 sp.

And yes, you could Maximize the direct damage spells, but that increases the sp cost for both sets by 75!

My point is that, yes, you can spam the direct damage spells. Is it usually a good idea? Not really. Unless you're Maximizing them, it's less effective and less efficient than just Maximizing the DoTs. I suppose you could spam several different direct damage spells, but there's not too many effective ones, and that requires you to have several different elemental lines.

*Edit*
I wanted to add one more thing, DPS. This is the dps of the various spells (using Wizard cooldowns) that I used in these examples. Honestly, I was pretty surprised at the results for the area-effect spells.

Polar Ray (4 sec cooldown): 31.25 dps, 8.3 damage / sp
Burning Blood (12 sec duration): 25 dps, 37.5 damage / sp

Cone of Cold (5 sec cooldown) : 15 dps, 3.75 damage / sp
Chain Lightning (5 sec cooldown) : 20 dps, 4 damage / sp
Acid Rain (8 sec duration) : 19.7 dps, 13 damage / sp

[richieelias27]

Also, Burning Blood does not have a save listed anymore, and I never noticed any enemies saving against it, so I assume it has none.

Is probably a bug then. If they intended Burning Blood to have no save then I imagine they would have made the SP cost higher. If not, far overpowered. 8sp would certainly be justified if it allowed for a Fort save.

The main reason to include DPS vs flat out damage is that there are rare but important occasions where all out damage as quickly as possible is necessary (Bosses, Heavy hitters). These are really the only times one would use these much less efficient, but higher DPS spells. Naturally some adjustments are definitely needed with costs, but high DPS spells should, in my opinion, always be less efficient than DoT spells.