Ranged Cbt "Pass" in U10? Please?

[Brynarius]

For as long as I can remember, one of my favorite character types in D&D has been the archer. Maybe its too much influence of Legolas or Robin Hood, but there is something about a PC that can slay the foe from afar before ever having to draw a melee weapon.

There has been a lot of discussion on DDOcast, and the boards, about eventually doing a "pass" at ranged combat. I (and many others) truly hope that happens. I'll stay away from too much "crunchy" stuff, but among other things that I think would bring ranged combatants back up to be close to melee (particulary TWF or THF) value would be:

* Putting special effects procs (beyond bane / slaying, elemental dmg) on ammunition. For instance: why not have arrows of paralyzation, or wounding, or banishing, or disruption? Just to name a few. Sure, they could be made to be high level arrows (like slayers are now), but it would allow for more mixing of effects than we have now, when you pretty much need to go with a paralyzing bow and elemental / bane / slaying arrows to get the best-available optimal effects mix.

* Increasing rate of fire - irregardless of weapon spec or PrE - in similar fashion to how BAB increases at different rates by class (sort of like how melee attack rate used to increase by fighter level in PNP D&D).

* Reduce the aggro generated by ranged attacks to be in proportion to the damage done. Maybe it works that way now (code wise), but it sure doesn't seem that way.

Any other thoughts on how to tweek ranged combat to make it more relevant?

- Khyrith
Bladesinger
Leader, Selous Scouts of Sarlona

[Aliss7]

My suggestion is tending on the graphics side. I'd like to see better and more unique visual cues for the different arrow imbues, types of arrows, and manyshot.

If I had to pick only one type of graphical addition to make, I'd make that manyshot... it deserves a way more flashier visual cue. In parties with multiple rangers, that would really help coordinate when to time manyshots. Brutal.

Mind you, this is not to show off, in fact, I would recommend subtle, but noticeable, graphics to discern what the archer is doing. Right now, I think there is just a purplish line that you sometimes see.

(yeah, I know, archers are not only rangers, and rangers are not only archers, but my AA is basically my first real character I've brought to level 20. I think this would help enhance/"prettify"? all ranged usage... so two birds with one stone!)

[wax_on_wax_off]

Perhaps one obstacle to a ranged pass is that if it was done properly then rangers - both tempest and arcane archers - would be OP considering that they gain access to both lines of feats (melee and ranged).

Perhaps we'll see a ranged pass down the track when animal companions are released with druids and there is an option for ranger to feat swap to animal companion (and lose ranged combat or TWF style). Archers could still do decent damage with Two Handers (like many builds without a combat feat line do currently) and strength shot could be left in for melee specced rangers to have a little bit of an edge there.

This relies on 2 things making up the loss of a style. First, ranged combat would need a pass to boost its effectiveness. Second, animal companions would have to be worthwhile.

Then, profit?

[Gremmlynn]

[QUOTE=wax_on_wax_off;3690249]Perhaps one obstacle to a ranged pass is that if it was done properly then rangers - both tempest and arcane archers - would be OP considering that they gain access to both lines of feats (melee and ranged)./QUOTE]Or maybe it's because if it was done properly all the mobs would be dead before they even realize the PC's are there.

[Brynarius]

On second thought... I guess ROF *should* prob be tied to weapon focus, weapon spec, greater wpn spec? That way, you would have to spend feats to gradually increase your ranged DPS.

As for killing mobs before they know you're there... unless you have a CC with you, there would still be high potential for melee. Increasing ranged DPS effectiveness would allow "squishy" builds to contribute to combat in better proportion to arcane casters, etc. Speaking of arcane casters, I don't think any mod to ranged DPS, even a high levels, would result in any a greater "insta-kill" rate than high level casters using death spells.

[Failedlegend]

On second thought... I guess ROF *should* prob be tied to weapon focus, weapon spec, greater wpn spec? That way, you would have to spend feats to gradually increase your ranged DPS.

No than any non-fighter or ranger would be screwed because there's already 6 100% required feats for ranged classes and thats NOT including toughness

@Everyone who claims fixing ranged will amke it OP: First who said we need to match melee dps...we just want to do a bit more than 40-50% damage that melee's do...on the other hand to balance things a bit you could make it that if we get hit in melee we have to make a roll to avoid interruption or something.

[DethTrip]

I have an idea. Create feats called Bow Fighting, Improved Bow Fighting, and Greater Bow Fighting. Each one you take gives you another arrow per shot with a max, obviously, of 4 arrows when you get GBF. Leave attack speed and everything else the same. This would definitely increase dps and bring ranged fighting up to snuff at a cost =-D

[Failedlegend]

I have an idea. Create feats called Bow Fighting, Improved Bow Fighting, and Greater Bow Fighting. Each one you take gives you another arrow per shot with a max, obviously, of 4 arrows when you get GBF. Leave attack speed and everything else the same. This would definitely increase dps and bring ranged fighting up to snuff at a cost =-D

Four issues with that..

A) that would make repeaters useless since it nullifies their bonus of having three shots per reload vs. a bows one

B) it's ignoring other forms of ranged combat ie. xbows

C) ranged combat already requires more feats than melee does and you want to add more....that will make so only pure fighters and MAYBE rangers can use ranged weapons effectively

D) How would many shot function if your already firing multiple arrows?

[wonkey]

I've already put these suggestions, and some more, in other threads, but I'm too lazy right now to go look them up.

Anyway:

I'm going to assume that the number 40-50% of melee damage given above is accurate.

Replace manyshot with:

First shot in your attack sequence shoots 1 arrow, 2nd 2, 3rd 3, 4th 4 at BAB +16, scaling up the same as manyshot (so, at level 6, 2 shot sequence 1,2,1,2..., at +11 1,2,3,1,2,3.... )

This effectively increases your ROF 2.5 times at BAB 16 (10 arrows in 4 shots), whereas manyshot currently boosts ROF by approximately 66% (probably a bit better because you're not fighting all the time, but you also might save it, so worse, but people seem to use the assumption that its used every time cooldown ends).

The trick is that the sequence is interrupted if you move, and it starts over from 1.

This gives about 60% melee (after removing effect of manyshot from 40%) for 40% of melee currently, and 75% of current melee for 50%.

Now, boost that by 20%-50%, based on what actual damage is compared to melee, for all characters, when the target is within sneak attack distance, bringing the amount up to about 90% of melee damage.

This brings ranged damage to where it can contribute to damage up close. It also factors in that ranged has certain advantages, even up close, such as effects from ammo and weapon, and improved precise shot, and being able to transition from distance fighting to close fighting without switching weapons, so melee gets the edge. Melees also get to move up close, where ranged combatants who won't put down the bow, lose out much more if they do so.

It also reduces damage at a distance, reducing the fear that ranged will be OP because it can take down monsters before they can reach you. It also reduces damage significantly if ranged combatants move, another contributor to possible OPness.

This would fix bows.

For crossbows, I have suggested that you be able to switch out the bow while loading for a fully loaded bow, and reload later. I don't know if this would be enough, but it would allow a lot of burst damage, if you carry enough crossbows.

[Brynarius]

Thanks everyone for the ideas... the thread has gone stale, and its been repeated in other places before... but I hope it someday gets attention!

- Khyrith
Bladesinger
Leader, Selous Scouts of Sarlona

[DustTheWind]

I would like to see the arcane archer enhancements actuall level as you level. Or get more powerful with level. Instead of having a redundant Force imbue spell just make the origional force spell get better over time instead.

I guess I wouldn't mind the slaying arrow instead procing more often and doing less damage per hit but over all the same dps

I would like the AA fire blast arow to have an aoe effect not over powered but basicaly to make it unique instead not just fire type damage.

However I know there is a lot of other ranged out there other than AA but most people dont play it. So I would like to see other types of viable ranged out there. Possibly a imbue bolts instead of arrows. I mean if you can imbue arrows im sure you could imbue bolts, seriously.

I guess I would like to see for Deepwood sniper to be able to craft arrows not imbue but relatively easy to craft arrows with special properties like poision, paralyze, slow, daze, blind. I would like to see sneak attack range increse with dexterity bonus. And maybe lower their special shot clicky to about every 2 seconds. That or do away with the clicky and just make it every shot would be better in my opinion.

I would like to see bows and maybe throwing axes get 2 handed bonus str damage added to shots as if they are 2 handed.

Mybe ranged alacrty scale with base attack bonus to increase ranged fire speed a bit.

Maybe modify AA so that it is flexible kind of like kensai in that you can imbue existing weapons and missiles (crossbows or bows) with different types effects types and ammunition.

I would like to see a new type of ranged/race character available. How about a ranged gnome using some type of steam powerd weapon that fire some type of ammunition maybe. The gnome type could have different types of weapons that range from rapid fire low damage to ones that fire very slow but do high damage per shot.

Well thats just for starters. There is a lot of fun stuff they could do with it