VAT Discussion

[Cordovan]

We appreciate that the collection of VAT is something many of you have strong opinions on. Creating multiple threads to discuss a singular topic, however, is somewhat counterproductive. It makes it difficult for us to follow the discussion, and it makes it hard for the community to keep up as well. We would appreciate it if you would restrict all your comments to this thread going forward.

Please remember to follow our Community Guidelines when posting in this thread.

Thank you and we appreciate your cooperation.

[Asketes]

Thanks for making another discussion thread Cela/Cordo.

I'm sure the community appreciates it having a place to congregate and hopefully have a few QQ's answered.


Cheers again GM team.

[fearlossPhiction]

thank you for doing this Cord, its needed, although i'm not sure the main 2 original threads where shut as they contain the gist of the argument.

[SiliconShadow]

The 500 point pack has increased in price for me by 42% the 3100 point pack by 54%, can I ask how this equates to VAT which is currently 20%?

I cannot afford this price increase, I also can't belive there was no tax on it before? how is this worked out, also does UK VAT apply? usually things of this sort are excluded, especially how you retain the ownership are you changing this to a service charge so it does?

Please explain, also check the prices before and after.

On a further note some countries already had this as too expensive, like Serbia with the additional costs it has priced the poorer countries of the world out of the game, the economy is bad globally this increase is impossible for a lot of people.

[slimkj]

I would think my original post will remain available but just in case;

I understand the need for you to charge VAT. I don't think that the increased price reflects good value any more. It's an opinion - I don't expect you to necessarily do anything about that, but there it is. I can't see me paying $61.99 for the top bundle.

It'll be interesting to see if you react with price cuts to the bundles for EU customers to keep sales up. Lots of goods sellers in the UK for example advertise "We pay the VAT" deals at the moment as they know cost of living has gone up, wages have stagnated, etc. and that they just can't sell at the old prices any more.

[Chai]

The 500 point pack has increased in price for me by 42% the 3100 point pack by 54%, can I ask how this equates to VAT which is currently 20%?

I cannot afford this price increase, I also can't belive there was no tax on it before? how is this worked out, also does UK VAT apply? usually things of this sort are excluded, especially how you retain the ownership are you changing this to a service charge so it does?

Please explain, also check the prices before and after.

On a further note some countries already had this as too expensive, like Serbia with the additional costs it has priced the poorer countries of the world out of the game, the economy is bad globally this increase is impossible for a lot of people.

VAT is charged to the seller. The seller may choose to or not choose to pass that cost onto the customer. Usually with most types of sales taxes, at some point they choose to do so, if not right away.

[Seikojin]

For informational purposes only, please disregard any negative comments:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=309543

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=309693

[ShotByBothSides]

I accept you have apologised for not announcing this in advance, I just hope that you learn that that was not the best way to engender good community relations.

I can’t speak for all EU players, but I would really like some clarity on how the prices have been calculated; for at the moment the pricing structure seems high and may well use a composite VAT rate for all EU countries, most of whom have varying VAT rates. I suspect the explanation maybe to do with being able to “register” with one EU country or something like that.

But some open clarity will stop the speculation.

Also a VAT number on the receipts is normal when VAT is being charged; or at least the option to request a VAT receipt; a VAT receipt is needed for those who may be able to “claim back” the VAT.

I think you will find that a logical, mathematically/financially sound explanation of the pricing structure will go a long way to helping to restore good will. For now I will make my stock of TPs last until I understand how this all works.

[Esmyra]

To those who believe that the bundles before included taxes (in the United States, at least): They didn't.

In the USA, each city sets it's own taxes. Yes, there is a state tax, but I don't know if that applies, regardless, it doesn't change some of the other bits of what I say. The main thing is, when purchasing from an online seller, they aren't required to collect taxes on the purchase, because they have no idea what city you're buying from. However, that doesn't mean that we aren't supposed to pay taxes on the purchase. In fact, when we do taxes at the end of the year we're supposed to put in any purchases we made that didn't have taxes paid on them, so that we can pay those taxes at that point. Needless to say, most people don't do this.

So yes, if I buy $200 worth of points throughout the year (I won't, but if), I'm supposed to pay the taxes on that at the end of the year. Different methods.

Edit: I hate it when I revise a statement and miss a different revision...taken care of. Now it says what I meant to say.

[ShotByBothSides]

So yes, if I buy $200 worth of points throughout the year (I won't, but if), I'm supposed to pay the taxes on that at the end of the year. Different methods.

At least you get the choice to cheat the tax man or not

[NinjaNeed]

Having followed most of the discussions so far on this subject it sounds like we all want to know a few things....

1. why are we paying more than Americans? If it is purely due to VAT then why are Americans NOT paying VAT? It makes no sense for us to pay an extra 20% when VAT is 20% unless the Americans do not pay any VAT in the first place.

2. can we please have your UK based VAT number. This is something you are legally obliged to give to us (the customer). Most people want it just to double check that it is VAT we are paying.

3. are you going to follow the rest of the EU laws? We in the EU are entitled to a 7 day no questions asked money back guarantee on any UNUSED products. So, if we purchase 5000 points today but do NOT use them, we should be (and am by EU law!) entitled to a full refund.



Basically, Q1 is about US tax rates. What US state is Turbine registered in so we can check the local tax laws ourselves.

Q2. confirm that it is VAT being paid to the UK government

Q3. you can NOT pick and choose what laws to follow. You follow one you follow them all.

I look forward to an official reply (although I doubt I will get one)

[Geonis]

the economy is bad globally this increase is impossible for a lot of people.

Then quit playing. This is not food or shelter, it is A GAME.

Edit- Or don;t even quit playing, grind some TP out, or enjoy the stuff you already have. Buying points is not a necessity, period. Whether you simply play the free stuff or grind out the points.

[Esmyra]

At least you get the choice to cheat the tax man or not

Yeah, but the whyfores and such give me a headache. Besides, most people forget that they even bought something like that. Hell, I didn't know about this until my girlfriend pointed it out two weeks ago! I'd guess that 90+% of the USA population doesn't have a clue that they're supposed to pay taxes on online purchases. Go figure.

[Gol]

If it is purely due to VAT then why are Americans NOT paying VAT? It makes no sense for us to pay an extra 20% when VAT is 20% unless the Americans do not pay any VAT in the first place.

USA has no VAT. Ergo, we pay the full rate of 0%.

[Gol]

What US state is Turbine registered in so we can check the local tax laws ourselves.

The Massachusetts sales tax is 6.25 percent of the sales price or rental charge of tangible personal property 1 or certain telecommunications services 2 sold or rented in the Commonwealth

link
Massachusetts State taxes do not apply as Turbine Points are neither tangible personal property nor a telecommunications service.

[fearlossPhiction]

Then quit playing. This is not food or shelter, it is A GAME.

Edit- Or don;t even quit playing, grind some TP out, or enjoy the stuff you already have. Buying points is not a necessity, period. Whether you simply play the free stuff or grind out the points.

is this kind of reply really helpful? or needed , people are asking for a explanation that is all , we are not saying we dont deny we should be paying VAT , after all most of the people raising this live in the EU and we already live with VAT we are just solely asking for some reasoning behind the maths, as to most of us it doesnt add up.

[cdbd3rd]

USA has no VAT. Ergo, we pay the full rate of 0%.

But be patient, we have politicians/lobbyists pushing for taxes on internet purchases.

To clarify a bit - USA has a Sales Tax (our equivalent of VAT), but it is added on to our purchases after everything is rung at the register. VAT, in UK anyway, was always added into the displayed price of an item.

[Cade_Wells]

If this is a VAT increase please tell us the VAT number of turbine and also how come we don't know the amount that is VAT and get the VAT number on the reciepts?


the increase is above the 20% it would be for the UK as well

how come no bright spark thought it would be a good idea to let people know about tihs change?

[SiliconShadow]

Then quit playing. This is not food or shelter, it is A GAME.

Edit- Or don;t even quit playing, grind some TP out, or enjoy the stuff you already have. Buying points is not a necessity, period. Whether you simply play the free stuff or grind out the points.

I wasn't talking about myself directly but this has made it impossible for a lot of players I do know to be able to afford turbine points, where they where a days wage before or even 2 days wage for a large pack it is now to much to justify.

@Chai - UK VAT in this case is a grey area if they call it one thing then VAT would not apply if they call it another it would apply.

[karl_k0ch]

Thank you very much for opening this thread.

Imho, the main problem at the moment is the following: Intransparency and Confusion.

All we see is an increase of the prices by about 25%. While it was stated that this was due to the taxes, the DDO store itself says (in the German version) when buying TP: "Umsatzsteuer 0,00 €", i.e. a VAT of 0 Euro.

On top of this, it is unclear which country benefits from the Tax, and consequently which country's tax laws are used - neither France nor Germany has a VAT which varies between 23% and 25%, but 19.6% and 19%, respectively.