DoS AP requiremetnts too high

[Spoonwelder]

Anyone understand why the Paladin DoS line requires such a massive AP investment compared to the other two - I count 38AP minimum vs. 29 for Hunter and 24 for Knight....and of these the Knight line is the most popular.

That is an incredible difference for what can be considered a weaker PrE in the DPS centric world that is Eberron.

[elraido]

Anyone understand why the Paladin DoS line requires such a massive AP investment compared to the other two - I count 38AP minimum vs. 29 for Hunter and 24 for Knight....and of these the Knight line is the most popular.

That is an incredible difference for what can be considered a weaker PrE in the DPS centric world that is Eberron.

I agree. We all know in this game, right now DPS>AC....And I have an AC toon. So an AC toon needs to use feats AND spend more AP to take that prestige line. A DPS can spend almost 1/2 the amount of AP's and have an extra feat or two....and be more effective in epics. If a Paladin was going use Leviks, he needs to take Tower Shield as a feat...and with the change to Shield Mastery that is ANOTHER feat they will have to take.

Either reduce the cost of AP's for DoS or give the DoS line a free feat in either Tower Shield or Shield Mastery for the amount of AP's they have to spend. Heck make it cost 2 ability points to have one of those feats once you have the top tier DoS. At least that will help them out a little bit in the feat dept.

[NeutronStar]

Sorry but I just love the concept of a Paladin Tank in a Dwarven Defender-type stance. That whole visual of a shining bulwark of defense standing in the battlefield while being assaulted from all directions just appeals to me.

Sometimes it's not JUST about DPS.

Crazy, I know.

[PestWulf]

I'd have to agree the paladin is not only feat starved, but also AP starved and the defender line is the biggest offender of this one.

They did a great service to s/b players with the improved shield changes and the glancing blows on the exotics, but to take advantage of it pretty much blows your entire feat loadout leaving you nothing to really play with. Pretty much makes it cookie cutter.

This assumes you are a dwarf to make use of the free dwarven axe.
Toughness
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
THF
ITHF
GTHF

If you want the extra 10% damage mitigation now on Tower Shields, there goes all 7 of your feats. Those exotic changes are specifically for s/b users, no one else would be single wielding a dwarven axe or bastard sword. So we are basically talking about improvements for one subset of character type. The s/b paladin and s/b fighter. They fighter could care less, he has so many feats that getting these is just an after thought. For the paladin defender though...this is about it.

It would be really nice if they combined some of these or awarded them for free in the paladin defender line to free up at least 1, maybe 2 feats for defender pally's to play with.

AP are the same, but I personally think offensive oriented paladins feel the AP crunch more then the defensive ones. You can't really afford to get the highest divine might and the highest Smite/exalted Smite without stripping yourself in other areas. The only other class i've come across to have this hard of a crunch is the Barbarian, not being able to capitalize on all their rage and damage enhancers.

You shouldn't be able to get everything, that's why ddo is wonderful, so many different builds to create and play with. I'm just saying Paladins have a LOT less build freedom than other classes and particularly the Defender pally.

[Impaqt]

I agree as well, DoS does need some love. I believe its the only Paly PrE that also has a Feat requirement as well.

[Spoonwelder]

Well at least I know I am not alone in my position on this.

My suggested change would be to require you to only get one line of the '....of Good' lines to tier 3. That would save about 8 AP and balance the whole shooting match.

As well drop the Faith line requirement - another 6 - I would trade that for requiring AC Boost to go to Tier 3.

[Spoonwelder]

I agree as well, DoS does need some love. I believe its the only Paly PrE that also has a Feat requirement as well.

Yeah that in particular is crazy since I think every other PrE requires some Feat. Most of them ones you would take anyway, but.....Hunter and Knight have no feat required. More imbalance to biotch about.

Kensai - Weapon Spec
Cleric- Empower Heal
Barb - PA and Cleave
FvS - Max, Empower
Ranger - point blank shot, Weapon Focus
etc....

I think Rogue is the only other class with PrE's that don't require a feat - and they are nearly as AP starved with all their skills to boost.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Well at least I know I am not alone in my position on this.

My suggested change would be to require you to only get one line of the '....of Good' lines to tier 3. That would save about 8 AP and balance the whole shooting match.

As well drop the Faith line requirement - another 6 - I would trade that for requiring AC Boost to go to Tier 3.

The two "...of Good" lines that require tier 3 or higher are Saves and AC, both of which you would want to take anyway as an AC Paladin that has aggro.

Requiring AC Boost 3 doesn't save any AP; it costs the DoS even more than it already does.


What they should do is drop Courage of Good 1, Focus of Good 1, and AC Boost 1, and then give DoS +1 Intim per tier.

[Ralmeth]

I agree. I've always thought that the AP prerequests for DoS were very expensive. Once you take the prereqs, plus all of the other enhancements you are definitely going to want (DM, DS, ES, Extra Smite, BOG, ROG, Pally & Racial Toughness, etc), you are left with very little room for any kind of customization. I also would like to see the Courage of Good, Focus of Good, AC Boost I requirement removed...Even getting 3 more APS would free up getting 2 ranks in a new enhancment line (ex. devotion) or a 3rd rank in another (ex toughness). At the moment, these three are all essentially 3 worthless APs that you need to spend.

[Spoonwelder]

The two "...of Good" lines that require tier 3 or higher are Saves and AC, both of which you would want to take anyway as an AC Paladin that has aggro.

Requiring AC Boost 3 doesn't save any AP; it costs the DoS even more than it already does.


What they should do is drop Courage of Good 1, Focus of Good 1, and AC Boost 1, and then give DoS +1 Intim per tier.

As I said - only require one - if you take the other at least it was at your option and you are then choosing it vs. say healing amp if you are human or h-elf.

The AC Boost to me was a trade vs. the faith lines (which do nothing IMO for a paladin) except get a one shot heal not worth the 6AP. While if they really want to chew up the AP for the DoS for some reason I'd rather see an AC Boost (or bulwark) requirement. In a perfect world it is neither.