Multi caster group dynamics

[LeLoric]

I think the biggest thing I like about all the changes to casting is the synergies between different casters when grouped together.

Before it was just one caster relegated to specific roles no matter the caster. Having multiples was generally frowned upon as the roles overlapped.

Now looking at things. Imagine an enchantment archmage coupled with an aoe specced water or air savant. One holds while the other kills. This is quite a bit different from the old one holds and 5 kill methods of previous epics.

Got multiple savants in your raid. Let one do normal caster jobs like kiting handling trash etc while the other becomes a boss dps. This is even better if the savants are of the same element as the one kiting and can add to the dps of the other through awakening ticks.

A palemaster wails a large group of mobs and a savant follows up with some nasty dps to finsih off any stragglers.

Melees still have some roles here but it appears that it's just as easy to take a caster over a melee in many cases. I often take whoever for raids but this even more encourages that kind of attitude versus having 3 people join then swap off their casters becaues there already is one.

Granted there is always the chance that these situations become too strong and we end up with a time similar to when cap was 14 and melees where the odd man out.
With this many changes it is possible that we will see quite a bit of balance issues at the start and the pendulum swings pretty far to the caster side.

[voodoogroves]

I think the biggest thing I like about all the changes to casting is the synergies between different casters when grouped together.

Before it was just one caster relegated to specific roles no matter the caster. Having multiples was generally frowned upon as the roles overlapped.

Now looking at things. Imagine an enchantment archmage coupled with an aoe specced water or air savant. One holds while the other kills. This is quite a bit different from the old one holds and 5 kill methods of previous epics.

Got multiple savants in your raid. Let one do normal caster jobs like kiting handling trash etc while the other becomes a boss dps. This is even better if the savants are of the same element as the one kiting and can add to the dps of the other through awakening ticks.

A palemaster wails a large group of mobs and a savant follows up with some nasty dps to finsih off any stragglers.

Melees still have some roles here but it appears that it's just as easy to take a caster over a melee in many cases. I often take whoever for raids but this even more encourages that kind of attitude versus having 3 people join then swap off their casters becaues there already is one.

Granted there is always the chance that these situations become too strong and we end up with a time similar to when cap was 14 and melees where the odd man out.
With this many changes it is possible that we will see quite a bit of balance issues at the start and the pendulum swings pretty far to the caster side.

The key here is that in order to really do this, you can't simply be a CC caster.

Well, you could, but you're not doing all you can ... it's like being there just for "hjealz".


Thankfully, every PRE for arcanes has some basic DPS SLAs and each have mechanisms for increasing those.



If the caster DPS/viability holds true, the real impacts will be clerics and bards if you're just going on blind who-hits-the-LFM. Clerics can't just heal - they need to be caster-types or smash face. Bards to a lesser extend, as long as their songs clash (virt/spell singer). Bards can't just buff and sing either.

If the general trend is for people to juggle and do multiple jobs at once and not be just buffs/heals, then your blind accepts and take-first-x will be easier. Those two stand out to me to be the classes where I'd worry / wonder most if they were going to do something "else".

[andbr22]

Probably the best imagine of multiple servants of this same line would be Shround part IV.
In this part Harry is down for about 90 seconds. About 80 seconds take 1 savant to fully awaken weakness. but for 2 savants it is 40 seconds for full awaken (20 seconds for 4 charges). For 3 savants 20 seconds for full. for 5 they have full at begining of fight.
While 1 savant is kidna slow, but 2 is enought to get good weakness.

Unfortunetly the game as it is will make fire savants not wanted (when I joined one to test at lamnia, heat death was weak (ok it was gimped elven fire savant -5 con mod, but my 12 con elf ranger with equipment and tome and no buffs saved this effect at 10 for no damage - hurting with it an red or purpure named enemy at elite or epic gona be realy hard), next immunity to fire of devils hurt, but still gota say that was funny that awaken fire make me more vunurable to lava walking :P), and ice savants prefered (no save high dmg, many endgame enemies not immune to ice).
Earth savants gona have problems with stacking dmg sources.
Lighting hacve also reflex save that will hurt specially on hard elite when some raid bosses get evasion.

[Cyr]

I believe max dps would point towards a cold and an air savant against many bosses in game as it seems likely that many will be dropping DoTs from both elements and the cureses will then help the other casters dps. Also air savant has some real desirability due to it's party dps boosting curse.

Really fire seems to be odd man out here with cold being a strong off school spec or primary school spec.

[maddmatt70]

I think that is nice LeLoric, but not really the way folks think, trends develop, or that melee and casters play so well together really. It is either going to be all melee or all caster driven. I do not see 2 melee 3 caster 1 healer or 3 melee 2 caster 1 healer groups being as effecitve as 4-5 caster 0-1 melee 1 healer or 4 melee 1 caster 1 healer groups.

[Kriogen]

I think that is nice LeLoric, but not really the way folks think, trends develop, or that melee and casters play so well together really. It is either going to be all melee or all caster driven. I do not see 2 melee 3 caster 1 healer or 3 melee 2 caster 1 healer groups being as effecitve as 4-5 caster 0-1 melee 1 healer or 4 melee 1 caster 1 healer groups.

I agree.

One pew pew archer in a group full of melee barbarians in blah. But 5-6 archers is a different story. Archer would prefer 'ranged' and would try to maximize imp precise shot. Barb not, they do things in a different way. Not very compatible.

The best groups are those that have compatible combat style. All basicaly melee or all bow or all nuke.

So far we have seen mostly melee oriented groups because magic DPS was not very sustainable DPS. With this new PM/AM/Savants, i think, will see more caster only groups. I don't think will see more 'balanced' groups. Pew pew savants is the same as pew pew archer. Not that it's ineffective, just melees don't like it.

[maddmatt70]

The best groups are those that have compatible combat style. All basicaly melee or all bow or all nuke.

.

I would love it if the above were not true and that the different combat styles worked very well together in some fashion. I think that would be another feather in Turbine's cap if they could pull that off . Honestly pnp could not pull off this very well so why should DDO. The one thing that could be nice with this update and hopefull update 11 for ranged combat is having the option to trot a whole caster party, a whole ranged party, or a whole melee party if you want and get a different experience playing DDO that way, but all three parties basically being equally effective.

[Raiderone]

I believe max dps would point towards a cold and an air savant against many bosses in game as it seems likely that many will be dropping DoTs from both elements and the cureses will then help the other casters dps. Also air savant has some real desirability due to it's party dps boosting curse.

Really fire seems to be odd man out here with cold being a strong off school spec or primary school spec.

I dont know about that. I feel Fire Savants have the most spells available to their Line. Mix in all Electric Line Enhancements with most of Force and you have a very versatile Savant. Plus one who doesn't have neg9 lvls to FTS and Stoneskin.

Only draw back is Ice or Polar Ray. But believe me Disintegrate will more than make up for it (with Force/Undamage Type lines).

The SLA's on FS are better than all others. Current FS with 26 Con and 20lvls will have a DC of 38 on Heat Death
.

[Osedox]

I dont know about that. I feel Fire Savants have the most spells available to their Line. Mix in all Electric Line Enhancements with most of Force and you have a very versatile Savant. Plus one who doesn't have neg9 lvls to FTS and Stoneskin.

Only draw back is Ice or Polar Ray. But believe me Disintegrate will more than make up for it (with Force/Undamage Type lines).

The SLA's on FS are better than all others. Current FS with 26 Con and 20lvls will have a DC of 38 on Heat Death
.

I disagree, for the sole reason that the Savant II curse ability is very powerful in certain situations IE Raid boss battles where it is feasible to get a fully stacked curse going. Going fire savant is great for killing trash, but your wasting your biggest strength as a savant, because your rarely if ever going to get more than a single curse off. Of course this is completely fallible against EADQ, abbot, and SOS, so i guess it just comes down to playstyle. Personally im thinking Ice Savant, with a secondary focus into Acid (75% ? Acid storm is sooo ballin), and some damage bonuses for force (Who knows what im gonna end up throwing in an abbot or SOS tho ).

[Trillea]

I disagree, for the sole reason that the Savant II curse ability is very powerful in certain situations IE Raid boss battles where it is feasible to get a fully stacked curse going. Going fire savant is great for killing trash, but your wasting your biggest strength as a savant, because your rarely if ever going to get more than a single curse off. Of course this is completely fallible against EADQ, abbot, and SOS, so i guess it just comes down to playstyle. Personally im thinking Ice Savant, with a secondary focus into Acid (75% ? Acid storm is sooo ballin), and some damage bonuses for force (Who knows what im gonna end up throwing in an abbot or SOS tho ).

For Abbot and SOS throw meteor swarm, which will be affected by the force lines as well as fire lines, and is not affected by caster level. Between that and acid rain for SOS you will be doing good for damage. For Abbot, this will be mostly disintegrates and meteor swarms. Disintegrate already does halfway decent damage on him, and will only get better.

[TheHolyDarkness]

So far, I'm seeing Fire Savant being attractive only for Tukaw type multiclass builds. Inherent fire guard and intim to these tank spellsword variants is a decent draw.

For pure sorcs however, not much of a point is my impression.

[LeLoric]

I think that is nice LeLoric, but not really the way folks think, trends develop, or that melee and casters play so well together really. It is either going to be all melee or all caster driven. I do not see 2 melee 3 caster 1 healer or 3 melee 2 caster 1 healer groups being as effecitve as 4-5 caster 0-1 melee 1 healer or 4 melee 1 caster 1 healer groups.

I'm not really debating most effective as that's all subjective really depending on who you play with and their playstyles.

The main point is while I often took multiple casters it wasn't with the notion that my group got better but it was with the idea that "oh well we will power through it anyways." Now taking a second caster or more will often times be beneficial as they won't be stumbling over each other trying to do the same job as much.

Yes this game does lead to multiples of the same types being very strong. 6 palemasters is already an extremely strong group for any content including epic. Add death effects working there and it is almost assuredly the best group for any content.

You often point out most efficient and that's all fine if you wanna be strict on your group compositions fine. I am generally the oppisite and take whoever wants to come first from guild then from channel then lfm. Rarely do I request a certain class type or ask someone to swap characters.

This now means even more than before I have more of that freedom and won't necessarily have people wanting to swap off their caster because they see we already have one and wanna be a help to the group but can't because theres really only one job for their class and we already got someone doing it.

[Draiden]

I agree.

One pew pew archer in a group full of melee barbarians in blah. But 5-6 archers is a different story. Archer would prefer 'ranged' and would try to maximize imp precise shot. Barb not, they do things in a different way. Not very compatible.

The best groups are those that have compatible combat style. All basicaly melee or all bow or all nuke.

So far we have seen mostly melee oriented groups because magic DPS was not very sustainable DPS. With this new PM/AM/Savants, i think, will see more caster only groups. I don't think will see more 'balanced' groups. Pew pew savants is the same as pew pew archer. Not that it's ineffective, just melees don't like it.

Seriously? Do you have a melee with LightII weapons? Let's link up for a shroud run with my soon-to-be air savant and tell me how much you like your LightII weapons then.

[Draiden]

So far, I'm seeing Fire Savant being attractive only for Tukaw type multiclass builds. Inherent fire guard and intim to these tank spellsword variants is a decent draw.

For pure sorcs however, not much of a point is my impression.

I don't know, man... my semi-Tukaw build (12Sorc/6Fighter/2Monk) is an AC build planned for a 90AC with perfect party makeup, so the EarthSavII with increased stoneskin, +2 Stacking Natural Armor and +10 HP is pretty sick.

[voodoogroves]

So far, I'm seeing Fire Savant being attractive only for Tukaw type multiclass builds. Inherent fire guard and intim to these tank spellsword variants is a decent draw.

For pure sorcs however, not much of a point is my impression.

I'm going Acid or Air on mine.

Intimidate on its own won't be holding aggro with a 15 second cooldown. Knockdown immunity is nice, but I think amping the single-target damage spells is going to go a long way to holding aggro.

I'm also very leery of any guard I can't turn off.

[Draiden]

I spent maybe 15 minutes testing stuff out and the sorc DPS is crazy. I never once clicked the eardweller on and didn't really mess with the awakenings TOO much, but shocking hands was doing 500s and I saw a chain lightning push 1,300. Add the eardweller, a couple more ASIIIs (air savant 3s) for quick awakenings and you'll see some named mobs drop really quickly. I think everybody is going to be surprised on their first mod9 shroud run with 3-6 casters.

For the melee-caster I went with ESII and melf's was ticking mid-70s. On that one I did play with the awakenings on a poor trash mob and it didn't survive the first contact of melf's. Sickening.

EDIT: Hit the eardweller and shocking hands hit for just under 650. Still without any awakenings. AND IT'S FREE! (Almost)

[Angelus_dead]

One pew pew archer in a group full of melee barbarians in blah. But 5-6 archers is a different story. Archer would prefer 'ranged' and would try to maximize imp precise shot. Barb not, they do things in a different way. Not very compatible.

The best groups are those that have compatible combat style. All basicaly melee or all bow or all nuke.

To put it briefly, "Melee and ranged don't stack".