Monks, DCs, and U9

[nebogloee]

Man you monk players...

Ask urself honestly- did you really expect to be Near top dps, best saves, improved evasion, raft of caster like abilities, abundant step, crazy self healin or if dark ToD...+sneak attack, not to mention void 4.

Having played a monk it felt like cheating. The class is so flexible and fun and has so many options it makes other classes feel bland in comparison. To me it is abundantly clear that the devs play monks... Isn't it obvious by how much attention to detail is in the class? U might actually have to choose what is best bang for buck now instead of spamming everything within fingers reach. So ur DPS isn't gonna be what it was. Welcome to how barbs felt a few updates back.

N

Just because the options exist does not mean the resources will be available. Additionally:
1. Monks are only near top dps when played well - making the most of your ki, knowing which stuns to use when. Really, they take a TON of twitch to get near top dps. And now with more limited ki, the monk gameplay will slow down a bit making it easier for an "average" monk player to be as good as a top twitcher, and I don't consider this a good thing.
2. Raft of caster like abilities? You mean casters have 1 minutes buffs, useless debuffs, or abilities that rely on a (as of update 9) a much smaller pool of resources. If you could defend this claim, please do so.
3. Abundant step? Just to inform you a few other classes have that ability now, and can use use it much more frequently due to a much larger pool of resources (mana).
4. Crazy self healing? Only for light monks, but again, those finishers are gonna cost a lot more relative ki
than they used to. Not to mention WF casters / pale masters - now there is CRAZY self healing
5. ToD? unless the mob is auto-crit - it'll use up resources really quick before U9. After, well, just because you have the ability does not mean you can afford it.
6. Void 4? This will actually be more useful for monk after this update, but I don't think you understand the AP/Stat/Stance requirements. Most first life monks or most dark monks in general cannot even fit it in.
7. IMHO - We could list ALL the awesome stuff every class gets. Monks are very flexible, you have that right. But isn't it telling when one of the most flexible classes in the game is forced to dump its flavor to stay competitive?

Monks are cheating? typo? Maybe you meant WF caster or pale master.

[Junts]

Hm. I'm all for making good decisions and resource (ki) management, but I have to contest this point, though this is coming from a multi build that had to spend build points for roguely stuff. Let's see...

14 base wis + 5 level ups + 2 enhancement (don't think either path pure monks can afford Wis 3 usually) + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 ship +1 from anything else, just to help rounding (it could be Litany, it could be a +7 instead of a +6, it could be an exceptional ToD ring bonus, whatever): 32 wis or + 11 bonus.

SF: DC 10 (base) + 11 (wis) + 10 Wraps + 10 (monk/2) = DC 41. Right now, that's enough to land pretty consistently on drow in eOOB, almost all trash in eBoB and eTides, the like ten trash mobs in eBig Top, etc.

Word from testers is that DC 45 is having a hard time landing on caster mobs (let alone melee-oriented targets). If that's the shape of things to come, then we're going to have some problems here, hence why the thread was created.

Some thoughts: consider that the exceptional +2 wisdom via one of the goggle options is extremely attractive, especially for wisdom-based monks who might be having to-hit issues (ravens sight is excep wis 2, and with gem of many facets provides stacking +4 to hit, and then you can gain the claw bonus with just gloves of the claw). Excep 1 from tower or a slot is also easily accessible.

And for that matter, you could level up in wisdom, which is extremely good.

Personally, everyone I've talked to who's been testing insta-death spells on Lamannia (often without much more than 45 dc, if even equal to that) suggests contrary, so I'm willing to trust my guildmates data more than random vitrolic forum posters.

[dpadan17]

Also, you might actually want to use more than one stance or more than one tower set and switch depending what you are doing!

How amazing would it be if you did that sometimes!

gee you think i already have this?

but even a number cruncher knows this is a huge change. no matter what stance/ set you have. Take away special moves from another or make it a TON more mana needed from casters and listen to them.....just sayin. I like changes, but moderate changes are ok, not drastic changes like this.

[Junts]

gee you think i already have this?

but even a number cruncher knows this is a huge change. no matter what stance/ set you have. Take away special moves from another or make it a TON more mana needed from casters and listen to them.....just sayin. I like changes, but moderate changes are ok, not drastic changes like this.

Of course its a huge change, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes you weaker compared to the competition than you are today, even if it makes you weaker in certain areas, because those people got nerfed..really..really hard. 150-250% damage worth of hard, and the mobs got nerfed hard.

[dpadan17]

Some thoughts: consider that the exceptional +2 wisdom via one of the goggle options is extremely attractive, especially for wisdom-based monks who might be having to-hit issues (ravens sight is excep wis 2, and with gem of many facets provides stacking +4 to hit, and then you can gain the claw bonus with just gloves of the claw). Excep 1 from tower or a slot is also easily accessible.

And for that matter, you could level up in wisdom, which is extremely good.

you say this like its a breeze to get the items. even if you grind out constantly. and also, if you just lvl up wiz, what else are you gimping? again, your dps will lower or something needs to be severely sacrificed in order to get where you need to be with the new change. just sayin.

[DrakmireTS]

Some thoughts: consider that the exceptional +2 wisdom via one of the goggle options is extremely attractive, especially for wisdom-based monks who might be having to-hit issues (ravens sight is excep wis 2, and with gem of many facets provides stacking +4 to hit, and then you can gain the claw bonus with just gloves of the claw). Excep 1 from tower or a slot is also easily accessible.

And for that matter, you could level up in wisdom, which is extremely good.

Personally, everyone I've talked to who's been testing insta-death spells on Lamannia (often without much more than 45 dc, if even equal to that) suggests contrary, so I'm willing to trust my guildmates data more than random vitrolic forum posters.

Yeah, I was just working out what you'd basically have as a monk with ok equipment starting in on epics. I'm just missing the stupid shard for the Raven's Sight, but people seem to stop running eDeeps when they've got all the shards they want. No blame there, just a pretty unpopular dungeon compared to the other shard epics, like Tides and Big Top.

If your guildies are saying 45 DC vs Fort is working out well, then that's promising, even if a 45 DC is still pretty rough to get (my calcs above had all five level up points in wis already).

[Junts]

Yeah, I was just working out what you'd basically have as a monk with ok equipment starting in on epics. I'm just missing the stupid shard for the Raven's Sight, but people seem to stop running eDeeps when they've got all the shards they want. No blame there, just a pretty unpopular dungeon compared to the other shard epics, like Tides and Big Top.

If your guildies are saying 45 DC vs Fort is working out well, then that's promising, even if a 45 DC is still pretty rough to get (my calcs above had all five level up points in wis already).

Again though, you don't need as high a dc as someone using finger - mobs usually save twice vs what you use. Imagine for example that the mob saves 30% of the time. With doublestrikes, he's still only saving 9% of the time. You get such a big increase to your chance to land that you can drop down near 50% and still land 3/4 of the time or better.

The very highest wis builds, yeah, they will be a lot more reliable. The rest will have to suffer and target. that's the price you pay.

[QuantumFX]

No malice. Ki was never intended to be an infinite resource, so the changes to ki on stunned monsters is considered a fix to a gameplay problem.

OK. Then could you fix your overdependance on using “crits” to generate ki? The only reason monks were generating an “infinite resource” was because of the synergy of auto crits and on crit ki generation. Once you were stuck with a mob you couldn’t autocrit then the ki generation went from “too much” to “too little”. Now you’ve permanently stuck monks on “too little” mode.

I can't get my sorcerer to even have a 45dc on anything useful...

So i kinda don't care much that monks won't be able to stun either.

Actually it’s not a 45 DC for Clonks. Monks are still in the low 40's

Oh wait. you will. It doesn't 'cost' anything to keep hitting them. So stun will work eventually.

Except that *now* we won’t have the ki necessary to “spam” Stunning Fist/Kukan Do.

[nebogloee]

OK. Then could you fix your overdependance on using “crits” to generate ki? The only reason monks were generating an “infinite resource” was because of the synergy of auto crits and on crit ki generation. Once you were stuck with a mob you couldn’t autocrit then the ki generation went from “too much” to “too little”. Now you’ve permanently stuck monks on “too little” mode.

/signed again and again and again

[xTethx]

OK. Then could you fix your overdependance on using “crits” to generate ki? The only reason monks were generating an “infinite resource” was because of the synergy of auto crits and on crit ki generation. Once you were stuck with a mob you couldn’t autocrit then the ki generation went from “too much” to “too little”. Now you’ve permanently stuck monks on “too little” mode.



Actually it’s not a 45 DC for Clonks. Monks are still in the low 40's



Except that *now* we won’t have the ki necessary to “spam” Stunning Fist/Kukan Do.

So you have the same ki when you fight a boss vs trash now. Big deal. Adapt and overcome. Learn your own strategy for ki consumption and stick to it.

[dejafu]

Tiers 2, 3, and 4 of all of the basic elemental strikes and void strikes will cost 5 ki in Update 9. Should be in the next Lamannia build.

Excellent. Thank you!

[QuantumFX]

So you have the same ki when you fight a boss vs trash now. Big deal. Adapt and overcome. Learn your own strategy for ki consumption and stick to it.

Having to rely on sun stance or Oremi’s is not a “strategy”. The developers should be coming up with ways to keep us from depending on one specific build choice or a specific piece of gear to make a class fun to play.

Also, boss fights don't involve using the most expensive monk abilities. (Stunning Fist, Kukan Do, Quivering Palm.)

[nebogloee]

So you have the same ki when you fight a boss vs trash now. Big deal. Adapt and overcome. Learn your own strategy for ki consumption and stick to it.

Because LR/TR is Turbine's definition of adapting.

[Angelus_dead]

Having to rely on sun stance or Oremi’s is not a “strategy”.

Technically it's a tactic, but not one that the game designers should encourage.


There are two things going on here:
1. Ki availability becomes more of a limit on Monk power. That is fine and desirable. Ki income was always supposed to be the limiting factor of special attacks, and supercharged Ki from stunned mobs was an inadvertent result. Monks should not have enough Ki for all the abilities they might want to use; the player should need to choose according to what he can afford.

2. Fire stance (or Oremi item) becomes tremendously better in terms of Ki income than the alternatives. Basically, since Ki availability is such a key part of the design balance of Monk abilities, it is unacceptable for one stance to have more than twice the Ki income of the others. That's an old problem that was hidden by the excessive Ki supply from autocrits. Since any stance could get Ki filled to max by stunning a few guys, the fact that Fire had too much more Ki wasn't much of a real factor.

So what the devs should do is go back to the design of the 4 stances and balance them against each other. Reduce the Ki bonus from fire to something much less than +100%, and then give Fire stance some other combat benefit to compensate. And while they're at it, Water and Earth stances also need improvements to make them reasonable choices for standard combat.

[QuantumFX]

Technically it's a tactic, but not one that the game designers should encourage.


There are two things going on here:
1. Ki availability becomes more of a limit on Monk power. That is fine and desirable. Ki income was always supposed to be the limiting factor of special attacks, and supercharged Ki from stunned mobs was an inadvertent result. Monks should not have enough Ki for all the abilities they might want to use; the player should need to choose according to what he can afford.

2. Fire stance (or Oremi item) becomes tremendously better in terms of Ki income than the alternatives. Basically, since Ki availability is such a key part of the design balance of Monk abilities, it is unacceptable for one stance to have more than twice the Ki income of the others. That's an old problem that was hidden by the excessive Ki supply from autocrits. Since any stance could get Ki filled to max by stunning a few guys, the fact that Fire had too much more Ki wasn't much of a real factor.

So what the devs should do is go back to the design of the 4 stances and balance them against each other. Reduce the Ki bonus from fire to something much less than +100%, and then give Fire stance some other combat benefit to compensate. And while they're at it, Water and Earth stances also need improvements to make them reasonable choices for standard combat.

Thank you. This is exactly my point.

[MoreIdiotThanSavant]

I too agree with Angelus_Dead.

I also guess from Eladrin's posts that the developers' desire is to move away from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome gameplay and towards a more tactical approach. Personally I think that's a good thing. However, if that's the direction you want to take monks, a bigger rebalance of ability cost/effects might be needed. I don't know. As a Dark Monk I would really like the finishers to actually be worth using. And the ToD pre-req curses could sure use a facelift.

[Nick_RC]

Last time I checked monks were melees...Compare apples to apples. If resources arnt availble ul have to make a choice. Choice is a good thing in my mind rather than having absolutely everything you can get all rolled into one. Further comments in red.

Just because the options exist does not mean the resources will be available. Additionally:
1. Monks are only near top dps when played well - making the most of your ki, knowing which stuns to use when. Really, they take a TON of twitch to get near top dps. And now with more limited ki, the monk gameplay will slow down a bit making it easier for an "average" monk player to be as good as a top twitcher, and I don't consider this a good thing.

Firstly I completely agree with ur last sentiment. I also feel better/more skilled players should get bigger bonuses than joe weaksauce in an active combat system. While I could argue with ur firstpoint on principle - most every melee class does alot better when played by a good player (Palis timing DS, ES, DM, etc etc, Fighters knowing when to haste boost etc) you are correct - monks can be +/- alot more substantial dps if played well vs played poorly. HOWEVER best comparisons are made between what a monk can potentially do with a good player vs other classes rather than what joe weaksauce can do. Typically balance is done by looking at what different classes can do in peak conditions. And even you admit played well they are right up there - why compare anything else?

2. Raft of caster like abilities? You mean casters have 1 minutes buffs, useless debuffs, or abilities that rely on a (as of update 9) a much smaller pool of resources. If you could defend this claim, please do so.

Again monks are melees lets compare them to what other (sustained dps) melees ccan do. Shadow fade...Pretty uber too me cant think of another melee that can do that. 25% concealment > any other defense end game. Void 4 and quivering palm... yikes caster-esque instakills with multiple saves.... you could maybe draw comparisons with an assassin but personally I wouldnt... You sound like you know what ur talking about - heard of monk CC? Ever hear of another melee class CCing? 6 second stuns (my poor barb/ftrs feel very slow at 15...) + (take ur pick on pre line) charming/dancing/kukan do/jade tomb....hell a guildie of mine throws sap into the mix and yes... a monk can definately cc. ToD kinda feels like a single target touch based nuke too me. Il stand by my 'raft' of caster like abilities.

3. Abundant step? Just to inform you a few other classes have that ability now, and can use use it much more frequently due to a much larger pool of resources (mana).

Dont need to inform me of anything Bub. Sure other caster classes have it. Is it powerful? Yup. Do other melees have it? Nope.

4. Crazy self healing? Only for light monks, but again, those finishers are gonna cost a lot more relative ki
than they used to. Not to mention WF casters / pale masters - now there is CRAZY self healing

Again dont know why comparing to a caster. Do you have great self healing vs a fighter or a barb? YUP! Even if its not using ki will a cure pot heal you for substantial amounts more? Yup! Palis and rangers can do great self healing too... but there healing typically conflicts with dps gear slots.

5. ToD? unless the mob is auto-crit - it'll use up resources really quick before U9. After, well, just because you have the ability does not mean you can afford it.

Valid Point. Sounds like the intention of the developers was to make ki not so abundant so more of a choice was needed. I think thats great. Because reality is - as you freely admitted - a well played monk can keep up DPS wise with most anything...as well as having everythign else. So they drop ur DPS a lil to compensate. Makes sence to me.

6. Void 4? This will actually be more useful for monk after this update, but I don't think you understand the AP/Stat/Stance requirements. Most first life monks or most dark monks in general cannot even fit it in.

You can fit it in. I understanf the monk class well enough. I have 3 past lives on my main and run with many great monks and discuss build choices with them extensively. You can fit it, and just like anything else (well except monk ki expenditure before 9) there is a tradeoff. Edit:saying that I think there definately should be a AP reduction on some of the monklet stuff if this 'no-more-infinate-ki' change takes place.

7. IMHO - We could list ALL the awesome stuff every class gets. Monks are very flexible, you have that right. But isn't it telling when one of the most flexible classes in the game is forced to dump its flavor to stay competitive?

Depends what ur definition is of competitive. With all the perks monks get I personally think doing 80% of the other melee classes would be a good trade off. If your definition of staying competitive is doing the most DPS roll a fighter, barb or rog. Looks pretty clear to me they are redressing the DPS potential of monks to be less than that of a barb or fighter...and rigthfully so in my eyes.

Monks are cheating? typo? Maybe you meant WF caster or pale master.

Yah while I was playing my monk ...as a melee... it felt like cheating. It was easy mode...as a melee. Casters and Meleee are fundamentally different...obviously.

Honestly it just seems like too many monk players want all the great fun cool stuff that monks get AND do the best DPS. In my eyes monks should never do as much dps as a barb in full ****** mode killing himself to DPS.

[Thuriaz]

Hmm, I can think of ONE monk build that would achieve acceptable Stunning, TOD, etc etc, DC's as a result of all this.

Half Elf, Rogue Dilly, Finess Monk. Likewise any dex gaining build would still be able to put 2 extra points in Wis for an extra DC (since they are getting 2dex from race). The half-elf rogue dilly though makes out more like a bandit, you could in theory put 4 of your levelups in wis and STILL have the same, or better, to hit than most STR builds to don't sacrifice wis completely.

Furthermore, and I hate to say it here as I've said it elsewhere, precision will be making a comeback. Switch precision on, go into fire stance, play with your food a bit to build the bar up and then use the abilities in the next fight.

For fines based monks this just means swapping in precision and focusing a bit more on wisdom during level ups. Heck, with stunning fist and precision you'll actually wind up even on DPS on a stunned mob now, so you can afford to spam those abilities again.

What I'm getting at is there are still viable tactics. That being said I'm probably deleting my monk, he's taking up a character spot I'd rather put a barbarian in. Not invalidated in the least, but simply just not enough firepower for my tastes. Take that for what it's worth as plenty of rogues fight undead every day in this game and watch THEIR DPS hit rock bottom. It's all about what you want to play, monks are supposed to be the unique "single target stun and gun" class that takes out the worst of the worst while everyone else cleans up the trash. Barbarians, fighters, everyone else does that well too, but they don't have amazing saves, super armor class, and the ability to evade that lightning bolt on the way into the fight before finishing off the enemy caster.

[Carpone]

You dont know how to play monk then.......

Im fire stanced str with oremis monk and i have problems not having ki .

The problem is your to-hit, not fire stance or Oremi's. When you're hitting on a 2, it's likely you'll generate more ki than you can use.

[xTethx]

Last time I checked monks were melees...Compare apples to apples. If resources arnt availble ul have to make a choice. Choice is a good thing in my mind rather than having absolutely everything you can get all rolled into one. Further comments in red.




Yah while I was playing my monk ...as a melee... it felt like cheating. It was easy mode...as a melee. Casters and Meleee are fundamentally different...obviously.

Honestly it just seems like too many monk players want all the great fun cool stuff that monks get AND do the best DPS. In my eyes monks should never do as much dps as a barb in full ****** mode killing himself to DPS.

My monk can beat up your monk post u9! +1's if I can.