Monks, DCs, and U9

[Junts]

monks are amazingly survivable as dps, all there defenses make them very durable when not being the main tank. however these same defenses do not translate as to a maintanking situation.

i mean i love the survivability of my monk, but ask your local healer if theyd rather heal a toaster monk who is happy to be tipping 600 health, and is proud to not have broken the 100% line on healing. or some barbarian whos got 900+health is closer to 200% healing amp

Yeah they do; incorporeality works on bosses, too.

My wf monk tops out at about 550 hp, which isn't all that high, but she can very smoothly tank pretty much everything except elite horoth, though I might be a little nervous on hard. Shadow Fade is one of the strongest tanking tools in DDO. Cloudkill+Shadow fade on a boss is tremendous damage mitigation, especially when topped out with improved evasion. The main thing standing between me and tanking a lot is how much of my threat is sneak attack based (a lot), and consequently being a lot better not doing so.

There's also no reason a monk has to have less healing amp than a barb, and a lot of ways it can have significantly more.

I don't get how you guys equate using less than 5 moves every 4 seconds to never using those moves and being a glorified barb. There's a happy medium between 'playing monks gets you carpal tunnel' and 'never using your special attacks'. You guys can try to say its taking the skill out of playing monks, but really its just changing the skillset: instead of it being about how many ki strikes you can hit and keep yourself in melee range at the same time, it will be about keeping track of a resource and using your attacks with more precise strategy to target mobs vulnerable to each attack, instead of just stunning the closest mob and continuing the way we do right now. Monks already have unprecedented mobility abilities for this task, and it will be very strategically demanding to ensure you use your stuns on the targets they're most likely to work on, and save things like void4 or touch for the ones that won't stun. You'll less be able to afford whiffing or having something save, so you'd better pick your targets more effectively. That will be extremely skill-testing, and I doubt I in particular will even be that good at it.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Ok so. .. for reference I've only played dd0 for 1.5 years. Started a light monk Xhiron Rhex (Khyber) bungled my way through the game and leveled to 20. Lesser Reincarnated to Dark Path to check out Nija Spy PrE. Did 40 shrouds, 20 ToDs etc etc. No big deal. Did enough epics to get a handful of Epic Tokens. So, I made it through the TWF "nerf" a while back and saw no change to my dps. Even ToD being changed from untyped piercing to neg damage didn't phase me. Had no trouble generating Ki as a light monk first life and dint use stunning fist at all. Only when I LRd to dark path did I use stunning fist and was wearing Oremi's Necklace in Wind 4 stance so Ki was never a problem. Even running Epics, Ki gained from Auto-Crits was marginally noticed since I ALWAYS had plenty of ki. So, now I am TRd to Shintao 3 at level 18 atm, all 4 T3 stances, void3 with void 4 and wind 4 by cap. Have had no problem with ki whether mobs stunned or not and if I am out I switch to fire for like 1 mob and have enough to stuff kill dps down w/e. I may do epics at 20 this life but I found the linear success equation for pre-U9 epics just short of dumb. I really have no need to be all Epic Geared out so I can do more Epics get more Epic Gear to do Epics Easier and maybe feel more Epic idk. But regardless IF you can't manage ur ki by lvl 3 and learn how to switch between stances to maximize it AND want to throw a fit about not getn that extra ki and feeling uber in epics with the only one good thing you think monks have (stun rinse repeat) THEN you obviously don't see the added benefit of helpless mobs getting +50% from all damage even SPELLS and SHOULD go play Hello Kitty Adventure Island or if its down for maintenance go pound it to the JC Penny Bra Catalog. Roll with it or play a paladin in WoW...

[Soleran]

I don't get how you guys equate using less than 5 moves every 4 seconds to never using those moves and being a glorified barb. There's a happy medium between 'playing monks gets you carpal tunnel' and 'never using your special attacks'. You guys can try to say its taking the skill out of playing monks, but really its just changing the skillset: instead of it being about how many ki strikes you can hit and keep yourself in melee range at the same time, it will be about keeping track of a resource and using your attacks with more precise strategy to target mobs vulnerable to each attack, instead of just stunning the closest mob and continuing the way we do right now. Monks already have unprecedented mobility abilities for this task, and it will be very strategically demanding to ensure you use your stuns on the targets they're most likely to work on, and save things like void4 or touch for the ones that won't stun. You'll less be able to afford whiffing or having something save, so you'd better pick your targets more effectively. That will be extremely skill-testing, and I doubt I in particular will even be that good at it.

This change to ki regen is really going to affect light monks far more then dark monks for absolute use of finishers however that said the changes to ki regen aren't going to make good monks anymore strategic in their use of ki instead its going to make most just save ki.

There are alot of abilities monks get that will just be shelved since they won't have the ki to use them effectively since strategic = prioritizing and that simply means you use your most effective tools and shelve "fun" ones 99% of the time.

This change also means that monks that like to utilize their tools will be fire stance specced, so from a global view of this change it's making monk choices much narrower then ever before as well as making monk 20 not near as attractive with the change to sf.

[xTethx]

monks are amazingly survivable as dps, all there defenses make them very durable when not being the main tank. however these same defenses do not translate as to a maintanking situation.

i mean i love the survivability of my monk, but ask your local healer if theyd rather heal a toaster monk who is happy to be tipping 600 health, and is proud to not have broken the 100% line on healing. or some barbarian whos got 900+health is closer to 200% healing amp

edit: so yeah... heres to update 9, where monks have to play like a barbarian. and the best way to build something that plays like a monk is with 18 of fighter....

honestly, if you want to play like a monk... 18kensei/2 monk, calculate that sf dc, and start planning your monk

Wow. Just wow. I'm amazed at how many people have this kind of attitude towards monks. Really man if you want to stun everything, have the best dps, be the best tank, survive better and easier than anyone in your group, go solo. Mission accomplished.

[Impatiens]

Could people start another thread if they really want to argue about ki gen issues? This post has gotten so derailed. The point of this post is that it in U9 it will be possible for some monk splash characters to get a higher DC on stunning fist than pure monks, and even if that is WAI, it seems very very wrong. I, and many other people, would like to see some change that makes monks still be top when it comes to stunning fist.

Dps, ki generation, Shintao vs. Ninja Spy, monks playing or not playing like Barbarians are all completely irrelevant to this stunning fist DC issue.

[line98]

my posts have always been aimed towards stunning. the ki gen was a troubling side thought, but is something that can be worked around. the issue on my end has always been stunning fist. the ability to stun more often than other melees and be a type of melee cc build that did reasonable dps while being low maintenance (because of all the nice defensive abilities) has become the natural monk role over time. i do not wish or expect to play a toon that is most durable, highest dps, best cc, etc. my concern is that if s/f is brought down to a 5% ability for monks we suddenly become less effective CC and lower dps than the "heavy hitter" dps, while being slightly lower maintenance.

spamming ki strikes has never been my concern, and i approve of tactical use of ki as opposed to spam. my concern is the dc boost, combined with the change to sf calculations make monks inneffective at cc compared to other melee. and a 20 monk suddenly becomes completely overshadowed at the monk role to something like a 12/8 or 18/2 fighter/monk.

the barbarian/monk comparison is simply that if the CC role is taken away this completely from monks we end up as just another dps. given the choice between a barbarian who will hit harder and reliably stun every 15 seconds, and a monk who doesnt hit as hard and will try to unreliably stun every 5... if they dont give up and use the ki on something that will work. I know that i as a monk lover will take the barbarian.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Could people start another thread if they really want to argue about ki gen issues? This post has gotten so derailed. The point of this post is that it in U9 it will be possible for some monk splash characters to get a higher DC on stunning fist than pure monks, and even if that is WAI, it seems very very wrong. I, and many other people, would like to see some change that makes monks still be top when it comes to stunning fist.

Dps, ki generation, Shintao vs. Ninja Spy, monks playing or not playing like Barbarians are all completely irrelevant to this stunning fist DC issue.

Great point! So what if Stunning Fist DC gets changed? So what if you don't hit that stun everytime? Why the narrow focus of complaint? I can't believe my caster doesn't have Fly or Mirror Image. No spears in the game? Wah. My rogue can't evenclimb walls! Wah Wah. ZOMG my one chance in life to feel uber playin a monk and they are gonna nerf it GASP. Have a blankie and 50 cc of hot cocoa on me while I run in circles and dps down the mob that took you to 2 hp w/o stunning them (Pajama Dry Cleaning Bill's FTW)

[DrakmireTS]

Great point! So what if Stunning Fist DC gets changed? So what if you don't hit that stun everytime? Why the narrow focus of complaint? I can't believe my caster doesn't have Fly or Mirror Image. No spears in the game? Wah. My rogue can't evenclimb walls! Wah Wah. ZOMG my one chance in life to feel uber playin a monk and they are gonna nerf it GASP. Have a blankie and 50 cc of hot cocoa on me while I run in circles and dps down the mob that took you to 2 hp w/o stunning them (Pajama Dry Cleaning Bill's FTW)

Are you aware that you might be having a seizure right now? You should consider calling the hospital, or at the very least, your family physician.

[Tirisha]

My suggestion would be too give epic mobs an inherent +5 resistance to instant death spells (balancing these are the reason saves have too be so high) while keeping the minion debuff at say..... 5. This will allow casters to finger and wail mobs in lam at the same rate they do now without unbalancing every other thing in the game that targets fortitude *heat death does look pretty silly doesn't it?* Also CC Casters will be rewarded for obtaining max gear/tomes/dcs outside of merely being viable. Not to mention newer CC casters being well beneficiary too the party.

[Tirisha]

Could people start another thread if they really want to argue about ki gen issues? This post has gotten so derailed. The point of this post is that it in U9 it will be possible for some monk splash characters to get a higher DC on stunning fist than pure monks, and even if that is WAI, it seems very very wrong. I, and many other people, would like to see some change that makes monks still be top when it comes to stunning fist.

Dps, ki generation, Shintao vs. Ninja Spy, monks playing or not playing like Barbarians are all completely irrelevant to this stunning fist DC issue.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=309746

[dejafu]

The point of this post is that it in U9 it will be possible for some monk splash characters to get a higher DC on stunning fist than pure monks, and even if that is WAI, it seems very very wrong. I, and many other people, would like to see some change that makes monks still be top when it comes to stunning fist.

Not sure if this has already been suggested in the chaos, but how about giving Monks a tactics enhancement line akin to what fighters and warforged currently get?

[Impatiens]

Not sure if this has already been suggested in the chaos, but how about giving Monks a tactics enhancement line akin to what fighters and warforged currently get?

I suggested that in the first post Yes, that would be a very good option too. The only issue is that monks are usually really tight on AP as is, so it would be hard to figure out what to drop to fit that in.

[DrakmireTS]

It's been suggested, but met with hostility in general, as monks of both paths are generally very, very tight on APs. I think it'd be at least a partial compromise, as then you'd have to make strategic choices about whether to take the line or not (at the cost of your Pre or other significant bonus).

[SolarDawning]

I suggested that in the first post Yes, that would be a very good option too. The only issue is that monks are usually really tight on AP as is, so it would be hard to figure out what to drop to fit that in.

Drop the costs of the four abilities that are prereqs for the light raise dead and dark Touch of Death down from 2pts each to 1 point.

Then add in Monk Stunning Tactics I/II/III/IV at 1/1/1/1 point a tier.

[dejafu]

I suggested that in the first post Yes, that would be a very good option too. The only issue is that monks are usually really tight on AP as is, so it would be hard to figure out what to drop to fit that in.

Gah, naturally... Dear god, this thread really DID get derailed, didn't it?

It's been suggested, but met with hostility in general, as monks of both paths are generally very, very tight on APs. I think it'd be at least a partial compromise, as then you'd have to make strategic choices about whether to take the line or not (at the cost of your Pre or other significant bonus).

It could also be made an alternative to some of the PrE requirements? Hmmm...

[DrakmireTS]

Drop the costs of the four abilities that are prereqs for the light raise dead and dark Touch of Death down from 2pts each to 1 point.

Then add in Monk Stunning Tactics I/II/III/IV at 1/1/1/1 point a tier.

Hm. I dunno, even as a monk, that strikes me too much of having your cake and eating it too. In the interests of just heading off a nerf later down the line, I'd rather see one or the other--1 AP per tier and current RoP/ToD requirements, or cheaper requirements and standard 1234 progression for SF.

[Lifespawn]

So. Very. Wrong.

You're playing a Shintao. There's yer problem.

I'm a WarForged full-strength fire-stance dark monk. At 4 KI per hit non-crit, KI is not an issue. On live, I have infinite KI, even using EVERY strike I can. I tank hate tank horoth on elite with both hands on the keyboard spamming every strike I can manage and I never run out of KI

With the increase to damage taken by mobs, strikes and touch of death are going to be just fine.

I use Stunning Blow, because Stunning Fist is fail. My DC isn't going to change. Though the enemy saves have gone up, it doesn't bother me if stuns don't land as reliably as before in Epic quests -- it's about time some new strats were needed! Epics are boring; stun/hold, kill. The end.

I play an incite-stacking, full-steam-ahead in-your-face dps dark monk. I hate tank pretty much anything I want. I break faces. I enjoy the tears of the weak Shintao people.

Oh, and I'm modest.

how are you getting 4 ki a hit non crit?

[Carpone]

-5 to 8 from power attack and, wow, that's pathetically bad to hit. Even 50 is quite poor, especially since helpless mobs will no longer be autohit.

You want ot talk about a nerf to monks? the largest danger ot monks here is that they can't ever use power attack anymore.

+4 from Greater Bane handwraps too.

Yes, monk to-hit is atrocious. It's one of the reasons I advocate 12/8 or 8/12 fighter/monk.

[Junts]

+4 from Greater Bane handwraps too.

Yes, monk to-hit is atrocious. It's one of the reasons I advocate 12/8 or 8/12 fighter/monk.

E Ravens sight goes a long way. I think that at 46-48 str I should be ok without that bonus, but I admit - I'm not sure. The raven's sight setup is 3 less strength and a lot of other stuff so it really sucks in every way except the bonus stacking hitroll and being +1 wis better.

I might drop 2 tiers of tortoise for 2 tiers of way of the faithful hound to increase my to hit in many situations.

[Carpone]

Not bothering even to respond to you when you making such assumption lol

It's not an assumption. I've posted the calculations on the monk forum. Read in order:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=44

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...29#post3428129

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...15#post3432615

The TL;DR version:

20 Monk, Sun Stance IV: 583 ki/minute
20 Monk, Wind Stance IV: 408 ki/minute
12 Monk/8 Fighter, Wind Stance III: 456 ki/minute
12 Monk/8 Fighter, Sun Stance III: 655 ki/minute

[...]

12 Monk/8 Fighter in Sun Stance III can't use all the ki he generates, so it's clear that using Oremi's over Shintao is a DPS loss.