Monks, DCs, and U9

[Junts]

Inferiority complex, eh? When was the last update where monks came out ahead overall?

Yeap, s'what I thought.

Meanwhile, in other news, barbarians are posting 1k+ point crits, sorcs chain lightning crits are one shot killing multiple epic trash, and paladins new best friends are favored souls.

Something about the popcorn doesnt taste right here in the monk section.

Film at 11.

You guys are crazy. Monks have been incredibly good for several mods, and they're actually improving in terms of relative trash killing speed. How is it you think that barbarians gained damage? They gained nothing: You just saw a screenshot of Shade. He does that on live too!

Nonetheless, good monks pull aggro, massively outkill and are generally among the very best epic melees right now in every way imaginable. And they're about to gain, relative to the pack, in the only area they were slow at - killing the mob post-stun.

Hows this sound? Drop touch of despair and throw a touch of death for over 1/2 any epic mob's hit points, every 15 seconds on demand.

Monks sucked for a long time, but that hasn't been true in a year, and they've one of the top two or three melee classes in the game for the last 6-9 months. They're better epic melees right now than paladins or rangers and a decent selection of barbarians, and that is unlikely to change going forward.

At least now you won't have to get carpal tunnel while playing a monk well.

[thx.janus]

I can't get my sorcerer to even have a 45dc on anything useful...

So i kinda don't care much that monks won't be able to stun either.

Oh wait. you will. It doesn't 'cost' anything to keep hitting them. So stun will work eventually.

Thats just wrong. It costs ki. 15 ki every 6 seconds. ki that we need to buff the party/debuff the enemy, to do our crowd control thing, to use abundant step, and to do damage!

[weewoo0]

I can't get my sorcerer to even have a 45dc on anything useful...

So i kinda don't care much that monks won't be able to stun either.

Oh wait. you will. It doesn't 'cost' anything to keep hitting them. So stun will work eventually.

wait a moment. so you're telling me that the toon i've been dying to play... a frickin monk w/ a 41 stunning fist and a 41 stunning blow now won't be able to hit anything with that? ***?

[thx.janus]

You guys are crazy. Monks have been incredibly good for several mods, and they're actually improving in terms of relative trash killing speed. How is it you think that barbarians gained damage? They gained nothing: You just saw a screenshot of Shade. He does that on live too!

Nonetheless, good monks pull aggro, massively outkill and are generally among the very best epic melees right now in every way imaginable. And they're about to gain, relative to the pack, in the only area they were slow at - killing the mob post-stun.

Hows this sound? Drop touch of despair and throw a touch of death for over 1/2 any epic mob's hit points, every 15 seconds on demand.

Monks sucked for a long time, but that hasn't been true in a year, and they've one of the top two or three melee classes in the game for the last 6-9 months. They're better epic melees right now than paladins or rangers and a decent selection of barbarians, and that is unlikely to change going forward.

At least now you won't have to get carpal tunnel while playing a monk well.

The only difference is, we will have a way harder time to stun anything, will not have enough ki to keep our current DPS, therefore the reduction of epic trash HP doesnt mean anything.

and we suffer this disadvantage in the whole game, not just epics, where all those greataxe, heavy pick and kopesh wielder will yell at the wizard if he doesnt keep the mobs auto-crit.

Hell, will anybody get this?

(sorry, its not against you personally, but against everybody who just looks at epic content and states, that monks are better of after u9. because thats just not true)

[Nick_RC]

Man you monk players...

Ask urself honestly- did you really expect to be Near top dps, best saves, improved evasion, raft of caster like abilities, abundant step, crazy self healin or if dark ToD...+sneak attack, not to mention void 4.

Having played a monk it felt like cheating. The class is so flexible and fun and has so many options it makes other classes feel bland in comparison. To me it is abundantly clear that the devs play monks... Isn't it obvious by how much attention to detail is in the class? U might actually have to choose what is best bang for buck now instead of spamming everything within fingers reach. So ur DPS isn't gonna be what it was. Welcome to how barbs felt a few updates back.

N

[Brannigan]

Why is Eladrin ignoring everything about Monks not being able to land a stun with a dc of between 43-45?

It's no good bleating on as a developer about when a Monk stuns something their damage is still good or comparable to other melee classes if they cant land a stun in the first place.

it's being reported everywhere and yet nothing is being said from Turbine that they acknowlege the issue and recognise unless they address this issue (which imo is higher than the ki issue) they have killed Monk dead.

[Junts]

The only difference is, we will have a way harder time to stun anything, will not have enough ki to keep our current DPS, therefore the reduction of epic trash HP doesnt mean anything.

and we suffer this disadvantage in the whole game, not just epics, where all those greataxe, heavy pick and kopesh wielder will yell at the wizard if he doesnt keep the mobs auto-crit.

Hell, will anybody get this?

(sorry, its not against you personally, but against everybody who just looks at epic content and states, that monks are better of after u9. because thats just not true)

You know who will have a hard time stunning things? Builds with medium to bad wisdom. Builds with good wisdom will still land stuns. You'll also have to think about what you stun - instead of spamming it at an ogre or a troll, you will use it on a caster or an archer.

I've been talking to dc 45-48 pale master players. They have no issues landing instakills on monsters with medium to lower fortitude saves, and struggle against the very highest. While stunning fist dcs are slightly lower, you also have the ability to get two procs (3 in wind stance). The odds of a mob saving twice when you have even a 65% landing rate are still very low - much as though your dc were 3-5 points higher.

Instead of mindlessly hitting stun every 15seconds, you will have to consciously select good targets for it. It is now a tactical ability to decide whta you stun, what you try to erase, and what you just dps with a touch of death. Right now, you're so busy mashing those abilities you just try to keep them all on cooldown and use them on whatever's immediately in front of you.

You won't have the ki or the landing rate to do that anymore. You will have to be strategic. Touch of death and erase high fort, stun medium fort, build ki on the stunned stuff. Build ki on the held stuff, because those mobs with the highest fort save also tend to have the worst will saves. Use will save based abilities against them instead.

That's what's required to play this game well as a caster and land your spells. It's also what's going to be required of a monk.

[Junts]

Why is Eladrin ignoring everything about Monks not being able to land a stun with a dc of between 43-45?

It's no good bleating on as a developer about when a Monk stuns something their damage is still good or comparable to other melee classes if they cant land a stun in the first place.

it's being reported everywhere and yet nothing is being said from Turbine that they acknowlege the issue and recognise unless they address this issue (which imo is higher than the ki issue) they have killed Monk dead.

Because it isn't true, primarily, and probably also because the exact save bonuses are subject to variation and because mob saving throws vary massively across quests and there's no demonstration here that people are testing against a wide enough rangeo f mobs. For example, the wimpy mobs people love to test against in von1 have notoriously good fortitude saves since they are all fighter/barbarians who rage when combat begins.

[Mistycball]

You know who will have a hard time stunning things? Builds with medium to bad wisdom. Builds with good wisdom will still land stuns. You'll also have to think about what you stun - instead of spamming it at an ogre or a troll, you will use it on a caster or an archer.

to this ---> stun requires a hit to works remember it....high wis = bad to hit in my personal opinion.

but im with you Junts and Nick i fell too OP playing with my main toon a shintao monk....its time to change the builts concepts

[DrakmireTS]

Man you monk players...

Ask urself honestly- did you really expect to be Near top dps, best saves, improved evasion, raft of caster like abilities, abundant step, crazy self healin or if dark ToD...+sneak attack, not to mention void 4.

Having played a monk it felt like cheating. The class is so flexible and fun and has so many options it makes other classes feel bland in comparison. To me it is abundantly clear that the devs play monks... Isn't it obvious by how much attention to detail is in the class? U might actually have to choose what is best bang for buck now instead of spamming everything within fingers reach. So ur DPS isn't gonna be what it was. Welcome to how barbs felt a few updates back.

N

This thread wasn't even about our DPS, originally. It's about SF DC becoming so high that it's essentially unreachable without significantly hurting your character. I'm less pessimistic about the ki change overall, especially in light of the cost reversion for the different tier strikes, but if SF becomes a no-go to all but the gimpiest of builds, we basically are getting pigeonholed into the role of "DPS or GTFO." Oh, and Grasp for some ToDs, if you're into that kind of thing.

[Chai]

You guys are crazy. Monks have been incredibly good for several mods, and they're actually improving in terms of relative trash killing speed. How is it you think that barbarians gained damage? They gained nothing: You just saw a screenshot of Shade. He does that on live too!

Nonetheless, good monks pull aggro, massively outkill and are generally among the very best epic melees right now in every way imaginable. And they're about to gain, relative to the pack, in the only area they were slow at - killing the mob post-stun.

Hows this sound? Drop touch of despair and throw a touch of death for over 1/2 any epic mob's hit points, every 15 seconds on demand.

Monks sucked for a long time, but that hasn't been true in a year, and they've one of the top two or three melee classes in the game for the last 6-9 months. They're better epic melees right now than paladins or rangers and a decent selection of barbarians, and that is unlikely to change going forward.

At least now you won't have to get carpal tunnel while playing a monk well.

Thats not the question I asked Junts. I asked when the last update was where monks came out ahead overall. That question likely cant be answered, because no one remembers, heh.

Any barbarian that a monk is a better epic melee than, isnt being played correctly. 1/2 epic mobs HP every 15 seconds? My barbarian who still needs alot of gear posts crits bigger than that 3-4 times every 15 seconds. Once that toon has an eSOS the gap just gets bigger. I dont think monks at the same gear level are outing barbarians. Sorry. Barbarians may not have posted a net gain this update, but they arent posting the net loss monks are.

[Junts]

This thread wasn't even about our DPS, originally. It's about SF DC becoming so high that it's essentially unreachable without significantly hurting your character. I'm less pessimistic about the ki change overall, especially in light of the cost reversion for the different tier strikes, but if SF becomes a no-go to all but the gimpiest of builds, we basically are getting pigeonholed into the role of "DPS or GTFO." Oh, and Grasp for some ToDs, if you're into that kind of thing.

Wisdom based monks were already better monks even before this change, as long as they took the proper steps (eg raven's sight etc etc) to mitigate their hitroll problems.

[fuzzy1guy]

Man you monk players...

Ask urself honestly- did you really expect to be Near top dps, best saves, improved evasion, raft of caster like abilities, abundant step, crazy self healin or if dark ToD...+sneak attack, not to mention void 4.

Exactly.

Monk has way too much goin for it for anyone to care that you can STILL hit an effective dc that casters would kill for. Without any real equipment or investment into doing it.

[Junts]

Thats not the question I asked Junts. I asked when the last update was where monks came out ahead overall. That question likely cant be answered, because no one remembers, heh.

Any barbarian that a monk is a better epic melee than, isnt being played correctly. 1/2 epic mobs HP every seconds? My barbarian who still needs alot of gear posts crits bigger than that 3-4 times every 15 seconds. Once that toon has an eSOS the gap just gets bigger. I dont think monks at the same gear level are outing barbarians. Sorry.

Most twf builds massively out-dps esos builds, particularly in epic since they can waer picks.

Epic swords of shadow are not the best source of dps in this game.

A competent monk at present is erasing one mob every 30 seconds or so, even before everything else they do.

When was the last time a barbarian erased something? Do you know how good void4 is?

[Nick_RC]

I'm with junts on this one. My autocrit dps just got smashed on my blittz. Monks get off lightly comparTively cos their 'helpless' DPS was weaksauce before. Gimme a break- ul figure it out. And everyone will be just fine.

If you built for a 41 stun DC I can understand some resentment-u might need to respec and specialize more... Instead of having dumped or near dumped wis and gone str based for more dps. So be it.

[Soleran]

Playing a monk and using KI strikes is a very active form of combat and the reason that i play a monk i bought a razer naga just to make switching hot bars for ki strike combos easier and i only bought it for playing my monk.

The only thing i'm asking for is to make it so that monks can do what they are supposed to do use special strikes to get things done otherwise i'd just roll a barb and /sleep

Right, this is what I'm thinking about the new system is certainly going to change that playstyle as well as have alot of monks simply use fire stance rather then even windstance with the update 10% doublestrike or not.

[Mistycball]

Wisdom based monks were already better monks even before this change, as long as they took the proper steps (eg raven's sight etc etc) to mitigate their hitroll problems.

May be we must work hard on to hit than pure dps and let the barbarians and figther do better their work with helpless mobs stunned by monks

[DrakmireTS]

You know who will have a hard time stunning things? Builds with medium to bad wisdom. Builds with good wisdom will still land stuns.

Hm. I'm all for making good decisions and resource (ki) management, but I have to contest this point, though this is coming from a multi build that had to spend build points for roguely stuff. Let's see...

14 base wis + 5 level ups + 2 enhancement (don't think either path pure monks can afford Wis 3 usually) + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 ship +1 from anything else, just to help rounding (it could be Litany, it could be a +7 instead of a +6, it could be an exceptional ToD ring bonus, whatever): 32 wis or + 11 bonus.

SF: DC 10 (base) + 11 (wis) + 10 Wraps + 10 (monk/2) = DC 41. Right now, that's enough to land pretty consistently on drow in eOOB, almost all trash in eBoB and eTides, the like ten trash mobs in eBig Top, etc.

Word from testers is that DC 45 is having a hard time landing on caster mobs (let alone melee-oriented targets). If that's the shape of things to come, then we're going to have some problems here, hence why the thread was created.

[DrakmireTS]

Do you know how good void4 is?

Hehe! I love Void 4, and it's sooo gimmicky, but I love charging at the head of a pack of players to a newly-held mob, then just erasing it before anyone gets a swing it. Tickles something about my ego to know my kill count is higher than everyone else's because I got a lucky string of 20s in a particular run.

It's still a gimmick though. I mean, I changed my 2nd TR's leveling path when I found out about it, but it's still mostly just a parlor trick right now since everything is held anyway, and it's just shaving off 15 seconds of completion time when it does work.

[Junts]

overreactive? i believe you are a little myself. You defend one point but dont listen to others. Sure, a crane path Fire based monk generates a ton of Ki and has no problem, so why not just cut down the amount per critical hit? with auto-stun you can gain a KI bar in nothing flat. So why not lower it? Why make the only worthwhile stance, FIRE stance? Shouldn't you have a choice? Why change your toon when you tweak it in every way just to make it more inferior cause the dev's pull the rug out in front of you?

To be effective dps with generating KI, a 41 stunning dc is pretty decent now, but to be nothing but below average? hmmmmm. it's like stating all fighter's have the tier IV haste boost and then nerfing it down to 10%. This is a HUGE change for monks. Not a little change, not a little nerf.....honestly the TOD nerf wasn't all that bad, but this is bigger than a TON of nerfs out there.

A dual wielding pick user was waaaaaaay overpowered in epics. Seriously how many of thse people out there are complaining like monks are? Not many at all, because they know we monks are getting nerfed the bejesus out of us. Say what you want, argue what you will, this is one of the biggest nerfs in a while. Why wouldn't people complain that their toon is not good enough after they have ground out for lives and find that they are gimped because a flip of a switch or some add/mods in a game?

I say, keep the stunning dc's alive and well where they are now. Lose the auto-crit if you have to, and lower the amount of KI generated on a crit hit. That will balance out everything.

p.s. if you have a monk or a barbarian asking to get into a party......i would have to say, people still think barb's are higher dps due to the fact they can produce 900's on a crit even after their big 'nerf'.

Considering that most of fire's bonus is also on-crit (fire is only 1 per swing, then extra crit), you also have a wind+henshin option for basically identical ki generation.

The only mix of the two that's probably not gonna work is the shintao+wind setup.

Also, you might actually want to use more than one stance or more than one tower set and switch depending what you are doing!

How amazing would it be if you did that sometimes!