Monks, DCs, and U9

[Chai]

Not very - apparently a monk with 45 dc stun was hardly stunning anything when he tested it out.

Mine has a 43 DC and I was only landing on casters with the fort save stun regularly. The rest of the time I barely landed a stun. If I get 2 chances every time I try, the mob basically has 2 chances to roll a 1. Now we are back to the era where building a specific character ability in DDO becomes build for auto success or dont build for it at all. Even when you do land the stun its not as good as it used to be.

Since character level will always be 20 in epics, the formula is:

10 start
10 stunning weapon
10 half character level
?? wisdom mod.
---------------------------
30 + wisdom mod.

What kind of max wisdom score can a monk get without having to gimp everything else? Ironic that Turbine has people paying for this class, as it gets pile driven every time theres a change.

[Deamus]

The impact of the combat changes on monks were well known when we made them.


Stunning Fist's DC no longer being tied solely to monk levels is a halo effect of fixing numerous issues tied to respeccing the feat, but it likely should have been looking at half character level all along. (The base feat in the PHB isn't monk-specific, though it is much better on a monk.)

So why a multi lvl 1 monk has better dc than pure monk if it is suposed to be better for pure monks ?

You should compensate monks in some way so they are better than multicalss if you want to stay with PHB rules imo.

[Mistycball]

Edit: We are considering reverting the change to the costs of higher tier elemental and void strikes that happened a couple of updates ago, however, since ki generation is now back to the originally expected rate.

The best thing i read ever in the forum =)

May be this change balance the game for monks,less Op than in the past but more realistic in the new pach.

thanks for the info.

[t0r012]

This reversion would be a really good idea, and I would also suggest that monks could stand to get a little bit of action point relief that might improved their play a little bit.

I know a fair number of monks who are at the point of dumping the capstone due to action point demands, especially in the dark tree with touch of death.

the point crunch is tough but you can now drop animal path. since cranes ki generation is getting squashed there isn't much reason to take it. Beyond that what else is there tha is interesting? couple of HP and a couple points in concentration from turtle is about all.

I also have to say though that the "crunch" you are experiencing I believe is WAI. getting earth4, TOD, and Void4 are I think supposed to be a "pick any 2" situation on purpose.

[Junts]

the point crunch is tough but you can now drop animal path. since cranes ki generation is getting squashed there isn't much reason to take it. Beyond that what else is there tha is interesting? couple of HP and a couple points in concentration from turtle is about all.

I also have to say though that the "crunch" you are experiencing I believe is WAI. getting earth4, TOD, and Void4 are I think supposed to be a "pick any 2" situation on purpose.

No, you can't: the animal path is required for the pre

No one took more than the minimum that I knew of anyway, it was pointless. I played wind without henshin mystic and my ki generation from autocrits didn't require crane 3 or 4. Those were really wasted action points.

[Dilgar]

What would you drop the animal path for? You'd just end up with even fewer options sub level 6 so you'd just end up having to take skill enhancements or something to unlock the better ones. That doesn't save you points, it's just shifts it over to other pointless stuff.

[slimkj]

I don't think anyone could argue with balancing if/when it's required but there are some other related issues these days which should be considered when doing things like this;

• The monk class plays in X way.
• Monk is a class that can be purchased.
• People buy monks based on X class design.
• X class design is changed to Y.

It's not an issue for me personally but you can see why balancing in this way, when it's something you'd been sold, has to be perceived as required by the buyer. No-one would be happy if they bought a nice new car and the seller came round a year later and reduced the engine power by 1000CC.

Were monks really so overpowered they required these multiple changes reducing their effectiveness? Even if so, is it fair to change the goods that were sold in one state, to another?

When there's a lack of communication about the reason for the perceived need for balance, or things like possible changes in ki strike costs are not communicated alongside the changes in an update preview cycle it's likely to cause upset.

[Khurse]

No malice. Ki was never intended to be an infinite resource, so the changes to ki on stunned monsters is considered a fix to a gameplay problem.

With a x2 crit profile and a high base damage, monks still gain a significant boost to damage by stunning a creature compared to auto-crit behavior. (Especially on Epic difficulty, where the decrease in monster hit points actually should be leaving you relatively better off other than the ki and bursting issues.)

Edit: We are considering reverting the change to the costs of higher tier elemental and void strikes that happened a couple of updates ago, however, since ki generation is now back to the originally expected rate.

Monks still lose more DPS vs the new stunned mobs vs other DPS classes (ie anyone with a Khopesh)
Monks now (apparently) will have lower DC's on their stuns than Monk splashes. In an update where higher epic DC's are needed
Monks are losing Ki gen for those that used crane (admittedly this one doesn't bother me as I never used crane)
Those TOD's that you "fixed" some time ago for the dark monks will also go down in epics (again, vs higher save)

And this was all "well known" when you made the changes?
Was this discussed by the same team that managed not to catch in internal testing that fact that savants were doing 500% more damage than they were supposed to ? Or that the new intimidate mechanism simply didn't work?
Because honestly? Still love the game, but not really sure any of you guys actually play it.

[dogpig11]

that's it, i quit.

[waterboytkd]

No malice. Ki was never intended to be an infinite resource, so the changes to ki on stunned monsters is considered a fix to a gameplay problem.

With a x2 crit profile and a high base damage, monks still gain a significant boost to damage by stunning a creature compared to auto-crit behavior. (Especially on Epic difficulty, where the decrease in monster hit points actually should be leaving you relatively better off other than the ki and bursting issues.)

Edit: We are considering reverting the change to the costs of higher tier elemental and void strikes that happened a couple of updates ago, however, since ki generation is now back to the originally expected rate.

Well, at least we know. And, as a diehard monk player, I'm all for lowering the costs on those strikes, then.

But, Eladrin, what do the devs think about the (probable, in my mind) spike in Oremi's necklace use? Especially for air stance light monks, and any and all dark monks? I mean, my air stance, monkey style, light monk has that as his permanent neck fixture because it's the only way he can keep ki gen up enough to keep cycling his fists on a boss. Even then, if I'm using Jade Strike and Smite Tainted, too, my ki does eventually deplete. I can't even imagine trying to keep ToD going. Is it a dev concern that pretty much all dark monks are gonna be Fire Stance with Oremi's, just so they can keep ToD on timer?

[t0r012]

No malice. Ki was never intended to be an infinite resource, so the changes to ki on stunned monsters is considered a fix to a gameplay problem.
What problem was that , might I ask? Sure we had lots of ki but was there something unbalanced about that beyond it wasn't working how it was intended? but even with tons of ki it isn't like monks were the kings of all damage slotting in behind just about every other melee class.
I'm sure you never intended barbarians to be able to run around with str scores getting over 100 in situations and 80+ the any other time. to me that is way more unbalanced than a monk being able to throw ki strikes at will.


With a x2 crit profile and a high base damage, monks still gain a significant boost to damage by stunning a creature compared to auto-crit behavior. (Especially on Epic difficulty, where the decrease in monster hit points actually should be leaving you relatively better off other than the ki and bursting issues.)
yes "better off" meaning we aren't getting hit as hard as dual pick monkies but out placement in the DPS scheme of things is still way down there.
even before considering burst effects and lack of elemental strikes

Edit: We are considering reverting the change to the costs of higher tier elemental and void strikes that happened a couple of updates ago, however, since ki generation is now back to the originally expected rate.
Awesome but how am I supposed to use even the cheaper versions when it seems it will be tough enough to generate ki to maintain my stunning fist and one other CC move?
by by quivering palm , dismissing strike, and smite tainted. they are all ki wasters. I doubt I'll even be able to grab enough ki from stunning fist to be able to throw an extra jade tomb or kukan-do more often than once in a blue moon. do you think i'm going to give up my CC cause my elemental strikes are cheaper? no they are going to sit on the bar unused.
capstone ki regen is going to be the only thing for a monk to survive.

like I said i'm not going to make threats empty or otherwise about leaving the game or my monk I'll adapt and find some way to work it. but come on sure it isn't working how it was intended but what is now a days really? should 100 str barbs get a pass when monks who aren't overpowered in at all really (except maybe trash CC) should get their ki slashed?

[Burdden]

May i propose a change to the monk capstone, keep it as is but add a +2 wisdom bonus, since to generate ki the cookie cutter will have to be broken out and all monks will be Ultimate Fire stance with heinshin mystic necklace, i for one would like my 2 wisdom back for being stuck in fire.

Another thing, way too much time has been spent perfecting my halfling finesse monk, including 4 eaten +4 tomes, I think you should introduce a True heart of wood that allows a character true reincarnate and keep them. As is i am stuck on a halfling in a strength based world.

~Smithers

[J1NG]

Eladrin

Unless there is some SERIOUS buffs coming for the monk's natural abilties (SR that blocks damage spells as well, etc), I don't think there is ANYTHING you guys can do to save the Monk class from being useless now.

Grats on losing a money maker.

J1NG

[Junts]

If the 2d10+3d6 of bursts you're getting is more than half your base damage, your monks must really, really suck.

Monks have huge base damage and no shortage of available damage modifiers: the only problem has been the low crit multiplier, and the dps has still been competitive.

This is a huge relative bonus in killspeed for monks, regardless of what happens with ki generation.

It's surprising to me that it hasn't occured to people that maybe spamming 5 ki strikes every 4 seconds is something that's suposed to be built for and not an inherent right of every monk. If they wanted every monk to spam those abilities endlessly, they would not cost ki and would just have 3 second cooldowns.

People's idea of ki management is removing ki as a resource consideration entirely and use everything they want to on its cooldown timer. That's clearly not intended as illustrated by this very thread.

[Khurse]

I don't think anyone could argue with balancing if/when it's required but there are some other related issues these days which should be considered when doing things like this;



When there's a lack of communication about the reason for the perceived need for balance,

They don't communicate. They never really communicated the "why" for the TOD nerf , and when pressed basically threatened to redo it to it's originally state if we didn't shut up.
(Admittedly in their defense, I'm pretty sure we accused them of filleting wide eyed innocent children at the time, they may have had reason to be irritated)

The part of this I don't like is the loss in DPS compared to other classes on stunned opponents. They lose a little, we may not lose a lot, but it's more than a little. I mean I suppose we lose an equivalent amount give or take to all the dual morningstar wielding DPS toons out there, but they can lobby on their own time.

[lethargos]

So :

1. Ki generation fuvked up
2. Stunning fist changed so it has 1/20 to do with monk class anymore.

I do have to ask, why play monk?

[sephiroth1084]

No malice. Ki was never intended to be an infinite resource, so the changes to ki on stunned monsters is considered a fix to a gameplay problem.

With a x2 crit profile and a high base damage, monks still gain a significant boost to damage by stunning a creature compared to auto-crit behavior. (Especially on Epic difficulty, where the decrease in monster hit points actually should be leaving you relatively better off other than the ki and bursting issues.)

Edit: We are considering reverting the change to the costs of higher tier elemental and void strikes that happened a couple of updates ago, however, since ki generation is now back to the originally expected rate.

Have you considered adding something to Crane to make up for the changes (aside from lessening the penalty)? Wind, Water and Earth stance (Wind to a lesser degree) all hurt for Ki generation, and Crane + stunning was their route to obtaining enough to keep their effects flowing (admittedly, it was often an abundance). With crits coming so infrequently on a 20, or 19-20 weapon, the benefit is pretty minuscule now.

Maybe..give it a 10% chance per tier to give an additional 1 ki on an attack? That leaves it behind Fire's 1 100% of the time, but it would close up the gap a little, and would really make getting all 4 tiers a true decision.

[waterboytkd]

Are you crazy? Do you really tihnk you lose less relative dps than people using khopeshes and picks?

You guys are insane in your inferiority complex.

This. I've run the numbers for my monk. My relative damage against epic mobs is going way up. By like, 25%. Khopesh wielders and others lose out big time by losing auto-crits, since their multiplier was +3 or higher. Monks, with their pitiful crit multiplier, don't lose out on as much base damage. THEN consider that monks add more elemental damages to each swing than other classes, and that +50% starts looking better and better. AND THEN consider that monks can also get up to +6d6 sneak attack damage (broken atm, so i hear), and can rip of a ToD on a helpless mob for massive amounts of extra damage (for a melee toon), and monks aren't getting hit anywhere near as hard as other melees (except, possibly, rogues, who typically relied on SA and 18-20/x2 crit weapons--they don't get hit hard either).

Only thing we're missing now is Lightning Strike handwraps :P

[Junts]

Have you considered adding something to Crane to make up for the changes (aside from lessening the penalty)? Wind, Fire and Earth stance (Wind to a lesser degree) all hurt for Ki generation, and Crane + stunning was their route to obtaining enough to keep their effects flowing (admittedly, it was often an abundance). With crits coming so infrequently on a 20, or 19-20 weapon, the benefit is pretty minuscule now.

Maybe..give it a 10% chance per tier to give an additional 1 ki on an attack? That leaves it behind Fire's 1 100% of the time, but it would close up the gap a little, and would really make getting all 4 tiers a true decision.

Seph, fire stance does not hurt for ki generation. Wind is far more likely to have ki generation problems than fire, which gains 3-4 ki per non-critical hit (!!).

The decision is going to be 'fire+shintao or henshin+wind', as the fire+henshin setup is probably overkilil, and shintao+wind will be inadequate.

[J1NG]

Why Play Monk?

SR? I can get it via spell buff, or from common items, or being Drow.
Saves? I can be FvS, AND I can kill stuff so **** well, I don't need to melee.
Fighting? Yeah, when I'm not a wet noodle, I can't do damage or DC. When I can DC I can't hit or do damage. When I can do damage I lose out on DC or to hit.

What part of any of that can't you get better from buffs on other builds?

Yeah, I can run across Xendrik in 3 hours flat to Shavarath. But those slow as heck rogues just walk to the teleporter guy. And no one has the patience to do that but me.

You guys are right when you list the Monk is an advanced class. It's so advanced it can't be played at all now, and I bet none of you dev's can either without turning God Mode on. Who wants somebody who can't CC? Or fight? Or get hit without dying quickly?

Seriously, even if you have lots of content with Anti-Magic in it, it won't make the monk any better.

Yijing is no longer becoming a Monk. Staying as FvS now. That's how much faith I have in Turbine to fix this.

J1NG