Monks, DCs, and U9

[Impatiens]

There are a lot of issues in U9 for monks. I'm not even going to bother touching on all of them. What this post about is DCs, specifically Stunning Fist DCs. In U9 Stunning Fist is being changed to use 1/2 character level instead of 1/2 monk level for its DC calculation. This makes the DC have no change at all for pure monks, but makes it possible for some monk splash builds to obtain a higher Stunning Fist DC than a pure monk. With all the negative changes for monks in U9 this is just another straw on the camel's back. Pretty soon that back is going to break.

Every monk finisher that has a DC, Freezing the Life Blood, Curse of the Void, Shining Star, etc uses 10 + full monk level + whatever stat modifier for its DC instead of the 1/2 monk level that Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm use. I propose that both Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist be changed to also use full monk level. In the case of Stunning Fist it should be changed to use 1/2 character level or full monk level, whichever is higher. In that way it would still be possible for monk splash characters to have a reasonable DC on the ability, it would be the same as the DC pure monks currently have, but pure monks would still have the advantage which is really as it should be since this ability has always been a monk staple.

With the increase to DCs in epics it would also make sense for monks to have some enhancements to increase the DCs on their abilities.

[Whargoul]

Another shameless plug:

My suggestion is to take the average between class level and character level (round down). For example:

Stunning Fist DC = 10 + floor( ( monk level + character level ) / 2 ) + wisdom mod + race/class enhancements + stunning weapon

This would further increase reliability of stunning fist (for all builds) to help compensate for higher epic saves. Pure monk builds would retain very reliable stuns. Monks that dumped wisdom and some cross class monks would still have moderately reliable stuns...

Many monks are already hurt by the fact that they won't get Way of the Crane auto-crit ki recovery, but at least won't have to worry that their successful stun frequency will suffer as well with update 9.

[Linenoise2]

I think it is pretty obvious that the Devs:

a) Do not play Monks.

and

b) Do not like Monks.


The only thing that has not been determined as of yet is which one is more true.

[dogpig11]

regardless how you increase the DC, you stil need ki to activate it. Currently, there is not enough ki to keep up. With the current ki generation, you are better off using only void strike IV and forget everything else.

BTW, if you make any character that takes the advantage of stunning fist's DC based on character level rather than monk level in update 9, healing ki is your prime example of what would happen in the future.

[J1NG]

I think it is pretty obvious that the Devs:

a) Do not play Monks.

and

b) Do not like Monks.


The only thing that has not been determined as of yet is which one is more true.

Actually

c) They may also have incompetent Monk testers as well. So that's option C. Since I know how hard it is to play any Monk to a high level with a gimped build. I can certainly see how it's easy to miss with testers who are not true and true Monk players, but just testers.

d) They may have totally incompetent testers full stop. I doubt this is the case, since many things have gone smoothly too. But some things that got through is just silly. So likely it's testers who are not speaking up about the bull that Turbine is shovelling and hoping no one points at them and they stay on to mess around.

So there's 4 options I can think of.

J1NG

[Chai]

Why would a non monks stunning fist be higher than a monks stunning fist? Fighter levels?

They still have to build for the same thing, wisdom, which a 8 monk 12 fighter is likely not going to do. Are Clonks going to be running around with the best stun DC ever? If this is the case, /fail.

10 start
10 stunning handwraps
10 1/2 character level with 3 level monk splash
15 wis score of 40
----------------------------------
45 stun DC How good would this work in the new epics?

[Chai]

Actually

c) They may also have incompetent Monk testers as well. So that's option C. Since I know how hard it is to play any Monk to a high level with a gimped build. I can certainly see how it's easy to miss with testers who are not true and true Monk players, but just testers.

d) They may have totally incompetent testers full stop. I doubt this is the case, since many things have gone smoothly too. But some things that got through is just silly. So likely it's testers who are not speaking up about the bull that Turbine is shovelling and hoping no one points at them and they stay on to mess around.

So there's 4 options I can think of.

J1NG

The testers also dont make the decisions at the end of the day. They could have the best monk QA department personel evAr® and this stuff could still happen to monks regularly.

[Gimpinator]

Helpless monsters should be considered insta-crit in terms of how Ki is generated. This change alone is enough to shelf my monk entirely. Heck, even a 19/1 (Cleric Monk) Clunk will be more effective in end-game (Epic) than a my monk. Oh well! I welcome a challenge, and if this is the best nerf you can give me, then I guess I've won DDO! Amateurs...

[kendo]

if they are changing the DC calculation for U9, then count 1 vote for asking it to be based on monk level. it should no more be 1/2 character level than other skills they are changing from being based on character level to being based on class level.

a level 18 - 19 fighter/level 1 - 2 monk should not get the same DC on stunning fist as a pure lvl 20 monk. especially as they will most likely be using a very high DC stunning blow.

[DrakmireTS]

The developer who made the SF DC change (and who also plays a monk as his main), said it was information based off of what Eladrin told him. It's not clear whether KoboldTerror took the design decision and implemented his version of it in code, or whether it was never his decision in the first place.

Hopefully even if he's not in charge of the decision, he can voice some ideas that would help remedy the situation, such as the two listed here.

[J1NG]

The testers also dont make the decisions at the end of the day. They could have the best monk QA department personel evAr® and this stuff could still happen to monks regularly.

In this particular case scenario, I would disagree.

The Dev's went ahead with things by changing the auto-crit area, but they can't factor everything in, and internal and the private testing server should have been able to run some tests to give the Dev's something regarding Ki on monks.

If not, something is wrong with the entire development process, not one particular area. You don't go making changes to code or effects without checking/testing for feedback afterwards to make sure all aspects are sorted. It's the standard practice.

So in this case, I would still list the testers as possibly not speaking up (whether internal or on the private mournlands server). As well as the likely possibiltity of the Dev's not listening.

J1NG

[Brannigan]

Why would a non monks stunning fist be higher than a monks stunning fist? Fighter levels?

They still have to build for the same thing, wisdom, which a 8 monk 12 fighter is likely not going to do. Are Clonks going to be running around with the best stun DC ever? If this is the case, /fail.

10 start
10 stunning handwraps
10 1/2 character level with 3 level monk splash
15 wis score of 40
----------------------------------
45 stun DC How good would this work in the new epics?

Not very - apparently a monk with 45 dc stun was hardly stunning anything when he tested it out.

[Chai]

In this particular case scenario, I would disagree.

The Dev's went ahead with things by changing the auto-crit area, but they can't factor everything in, and internal and the private testing server should have been able to run some tests to give the Dev's something regarding Ki on monks.

If not, something is wrong with the entire development process, not one particular area. You don't go making changes to code or effects without checking/testing for feedback afterwards to make sure all aspects are sorted. It's the standard practice.

So in this case, I would still list the testers as possibly not speaking up (whether internal or on the private mournlands server). As well as the likely possibiltity of the Dev's not listening.

J1NG

I agree, but who said they didnt. In most companies the devs + QA dont make the decisions - bottom line. Im not bantering that what youre saying is not possible, I am just tossing another possibility into the mix. The testers / devs are usually doing their jobs to implement the decisions handed to them by management. The QA / dev teams could have all their Ps and Qs minded, all i's dotted and Ts crossed, and all their little duckies lined up in a row, and the manager walks in and says "go ahead with this thing that nerfs the bajeus out of monks again, its been at least two months since we completely destroyed that class, hasnt it johnson?"

How do you think new versions of Windows get released with 14 bajillion known issues every time, heh.

[Hecore]

I'd be lying if I said I was completely unhappy with this change, as the character I spend 98% of my time with is a heavy monk splash.

That said, there really is no reason that this alteration should have been made. Either revert it, give each Monk level a 1/1 dc increase, or include some kind of built in DC booster (either included in the capstone or in a cheap enhancement line).

[Eladrin]

The Dev's went ahead with things by changing the auto-crit area, but they can't factor everything in, and internal and the private testing server should have been able to run some tests to give the Dev's something regarding Ki on monks.

The impact of the combat changes on monks were well known when we made them.

there really is no reason that this alteration should have been made.

Stunning Fist's DC no longer being tied solely to monk levels is a halo effect of fixing numerous issues tied to respeccing the feat, but it likely should have been looking at half character level all along. (The base feat in the PHB isn't monk-specific, though it is much better on a monk.)

[DrakmireTS]

The impact of the combat changes on monks were well known when we made them.

That is...significantly discouraging. It makes it feel less like an oversight and more outright malice towards monks.

[Eladrin]

That is...significantly discouraging. It makes it feel less like an oversight and more outright malice, towards monks.

No malice. Ki was never intended to be an infinite resource, so the changes to ki on stunned monsters is considered a fix to a gameplay problem.

With a x2 crit profile and a high base damage, monks still gain a significant boost to damage by stunning a creature compared to auto-crit behavior. (Especially on Epic difficulty, where the decrease in monster hit points actually should be leaving you relatively better off other than the ki and bursting issues.)

Edit: We are considering reverting the change to the costs of higher tier elemental and void strikes that happened a couple of updates ago, however, since ki generation is now back to the originally expected rate.

[Hecore]

(The base feat in the PHB isn't monk-specific, though it is much better on a monk.)

And that's the problem. A normal character in DnD is only going to be able to use stunning Fist a few times a day, where as a Monk can use it much more often. In DDO Ki generation is bad enough that even the lightest splash will have little trouble throwing it out as often as a Monk, especially considering that they won't be spending that Ki on elemental strikes, abundant step, etc. While this isn't in my personal best interest, I would strongly consider letting this change make it to live.

[Junts]

No malice. Ki was never intended to be an infinite resource, so the changes to ki on stunned monsters is considered a fix to a gameplay problem.

With a x2 crit profile and a high base damage, monks still gain a significant boost to damage by stunning a creature compared to auto-crit behavior. (Especially on Epic difficulty, where the decrease in monster hit points actually should be leaving you relatively better off other than the ki and bursting issues.)

Edit: We are considering reverting the change to the costs of higher tier elemental and void strikes that happened a couple of updates ago, however, since ki generation is now back to the originally expected rate.

This reversion would be a really good idea, and I would also suggest that monks could stand to get a little bit of action point relief that might improved their play a little bit.

I know a fair number of monks who are at the point of dumping the capstone due to action point demands, especially in the dark tree with touch of death.

[grodon9999]

So stunning first DC is 1/2 character level now? So my 38 Wisdom Clonk could now could have a 44 DC?