U9 Warforged melee FVS - Angel of Blades

[AtomicMew]

I'm not sure I understand why you're worried about losing DPS by weapon swapping, when swapping, hitting the clickie and throwing a mass cure, all of that, takes less time than quickened mass heal. Not only that, but you only need to do it every ~5-10 heals.

Rather than quote snipe the rest of your post, I'll just try to generalize the disagreement: there are some situations when healing where empower healing is better and there are some times when maximize is better. However, because of AoV, and other things mentioned, a WF FvS will be a significantly stronger offensive caster, even WIS-dumped. That means U9 empower will be, proportionately, ALSO stronger than empower heal, compared to the situation as it is now.

I thought it was a close call between the two even before, but for me, the changes make empower heal a second-rate feat.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I did read your chart on efficiencies, and I agree that numbers wise, Maximize is more efficient. Perhaps my choice of wording was poor. In what circumstance are you going to need your Mass Cures to hit for more than Empower Heal makes them hit for? (I am assuming some basic level of gear here, which your calculations in your efficiency post do not include) The main benefit of Mass Cures is they cast quickly, so they can be spammed if you have fast incoming damage. This kind of damage usually comes in quick waves, such that you will be overhealing with spammed Maximized Cures. And if it's slow enough that you can wait, Mass Heal is more efficient.

Also, you left out Heal and Mass Heal completely in your analysis. Saying something like "Mass heal does not need empower healing - it just usually turns into overheal and wasted mana. Mass cures are already more efficient using maximize." is clearly false if you run the numbers for it.

Additionally, you are telling me that, in the middle of combat, you are going to stop fighting to switch weapons, use a clicky that lasts no longer than an action boost (did a Dev ever say if the Cove stuff that reads wrong is WAI?), then switch back to your DPS weapon. All while you are responsible for making sure the group stays up.

Again, you did not address Empower Heal's affects on Heal itself. I noted that you had mentioned this in your efficiencies post, and it is even more relevant here, since the FvS builds we are discussing are Warforged.



Um... actually according to my calculations, if the costs of MCLW and MCMW are decreasing (as said in the release notes), this actually benefits Empower Heal more than Maximize from a purely 'mathematical' standpoint (note on your chart MCMW is the break even for efficiency between the two, with U9 changes, Empower Heal comes out ahead; note that MCMW appears to be unchanged so far on Lamannia though). Also, Heal increasing in cost with no change in affect makes Empower Heal more important for making sure it hits for the biggest amount possible (overall efficiency is being decreased, but it is still the best single target heal out there). I see no relevant changes to Mass Heal (removal of Heighten? what?).

Again, you are going to hotswap these things to use their clicky in the middle of a fight? I can understand if you're an offensive caster and have it permanently equipped, but in the middle of a melee with no quickdraw?

How does AoV have anything to do with Empower Heal?

On my Soul Survivor I rarely use Mass Heal, it simply takes too long and reduces my DPS by too much. Maximise + Empower Healing (soon to be replaced by empower when I get some healing amp and U9 goes live) on MCCW is enough to do about 80% of my healing at a rate of efficiency that will happily let me solo heal many important quests (Solo healing The Shroud for instance after round 1 in part four I will usually have 2/3 SP bar).

If I am healing more demanding quests (eDQ, eV6, eDA) I'll usually swap in ornamental dagger to hit the clicky. The 20 seconds is handy for this, I can happily spam multiple mass cures with only the first one in that 20 second having a delay for weapon swapping (so the first MCCW has the "casting time" of mass heal, but for 20 seconds the others don't). Additionally, there is many opportunities to do that "casting time" when the cost isn't high, for example, between rounds in ev6, shroud or edq. Finally, when comfortable with a guaranteed outcome you can not worry about the daggers and just go full DPS.

All up, empower + maximise will give valuable DPS to many abilities in U9 including blade barrier, searing light and the new light DoT which will do quite massive damage which will make empower more valuable than empower healing, imo.

To provide some context, a maximised, empowered (whichever version) MCCW will heal an average of ~250 HP (with all gear and enhancements) which is a good amount for a majority of content (not overhealing or underhealing, except for 0 heal amp WF barbarians, but they can go screw themselves). MCLW on the other hand will do about ~150 HP which isn't enough and is either only good for patching up (after a big hit if MCCW isn't enough) or when intending to cycle multiple mass cures or alternating with mass heal but, in the end, more casting means less DPS.

Also, when healing epic quests I don't find Mass Heal to be appropriate due to the burst nature of the healing required and the long casting time that the spell has, MCCW is much more appropriate.

[Alyiakal]

On my Soul Survivor I rarely use Mass Heal, it simply takes too long and reduces my DPS by too much. Maximise + Empower Healing (soon to be replaced by empower when I get some healing amp and U9 goes live) on MCCW is enough to do about 80% of my healing at a rate of efficiency that will happily let me solo heal many important quests (Solo healing The Shroud for instance after round 1 in part four I will usually have 2/3 SP bar).

If I am healing more demanding quests (eDQ, eV6, eDA) I'll usually swap in ornamental dagger to hit the clicky. The 20 seconds is handy for this, I can happily spam multiple mass cures with only the first one in that 20 second having a delay for weapon swapping (so the first MCCW has the "casting time" of mass heal, but for 20 seconds the others don't). Additionally, there is many opportunities to do that "casting time" when the cost isn't high, for example, between rounds in ev6, shroud or edq. Finally, when comfortable with a guaranteed outcome you can not worry about the daggers and just go full DPS.

All up, empower + maximise will give valuable DPS to many abilities in U9 including blade barrier, searing light and the new light DoT which will do quite massive damage which will make empower more valuable than empower healing, imo.

To provide some context, a maximised, empowered (whichever version) MCCW will heal an average of ~250 HP (with all gear and enhancements) which is a good amount for a majority of content (not overhealing or underhealing, except for 0 heal amp WF barbarians, but they can go screw themselves). MCLW on the other hand will do about ~150 HP which isn't enough and is either only good for patching up (after a big hit if MCCW isn't enough) or when intending to cycle multiple mass cures or alternating with mass heal but, in the end, more casting means less DPS.

Also, when healing epic quests I don't find Mass Heal to be appropriate due to the burst nature of the healing required and the long casting time that the spell has, MCCW is much more appropriate.

The context provided in this post is greatly appreciated. It also lets me know that either my healing technique needs work; perhaps I am using Mass Heal as a crutch, or perhaps I am blinded by the raw numbers efficiency of Mass Heal. Or perhaps I need to stop healing the squishies in the shroud that only have 250HP...

I just tried using the dagger to see the swap time; both you and Atomic are correct that it is negligible... however, I tested it while standing in a tavern in a zero lag situation, conditions that generally don't exist in raids. I've had difficulties swapping in other clickies before, so I'd be interested to hear if anyone else had any problems.

A fully Meta'd MCCW is going to cost you 95sp without the dagger clicky; I am assuming you have the luxury of running with folks where you can wait until they've taken 250 points of damage to heal them. With that in mind, I'll have to try and avoid hitting the more questionable PUGs. Again, I thank you for the context, and can now see where you and Atomic are coming from with the Maximized Cures.

I have one further question, and that it, what are your other two Level 8 spell slots taken up by if you are using MCCW? I have a feeling I'll have to drop something that I'm actively using from it's slot to accommodate it.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I have Holy Aura and Death Pact. Honestly, I never use Death Pact. If I die, Death Pact wouldn't make a difference (and it seems to have changed in a recent update to provide an instant raise rather than giving a raise that can be taken at an appropriate time when out of harms way).

I'd suggest that having 3 mass cures is an optimal number for quests such as eDQ where they are needed. With the changes to efficiency in U9 the best 3 to have will likely change. MCCW will always be on my list due to the higher numbers it puts out regardless of the efficiency (which is superior to all others pre and post U9 afaik). Apparently both MCLW and MCMW are getting reduced in cost but I only saw MCLW in the release notes as being reduced, either way, I'd say MCLW + MCMW or MCSW + MCCW will be a good setup.

Especially until you are geared with both Amara's and Tokala's belts I'd suggest to have both MCLW and MCMW for efficient and effective healing with superior ardor VI daggers.

No, I don't heal 250 HP squishies in the Shroud. Often, if I'm leader and the party is filling at a usual pace I will ask questionable characters or myDDO them to check their gear/HP. I'm not elitist but the Shroud is a great place for players with a great variety of play styles and goals can come together and it's nice to share knowledge/gear around a little bit. Often a 250 HP rogue can have their HP bumped up a bit just by application of a GFL item and a ship buff, other times, not so much. I am happy to deny applications to my Shroud runs from melee toons with <300 HP and/or with 0 fortification. Sure, it's an easy quest but I can't be bothered with the headache that squishies cause.

[Attropos]

I am personally tring my Fvs after I finish my caster TR after this update 9.

The few things that are switching are:
Empower Healing--> Empower
Picking up Intimidate


I will definitely be getting tier 2 of AoV. I will probably remove one or two of the tiers of toughness, the buff to the new dot light spell is just so worth it.

When you consider that your fully buffed dot alone will be doing as much DPS as a poorly geared pure fighter, any buffs to it are quite worth it. When you consider that fully meta'd, it deals about 320 every 2 seconds, the 10% is worth about 15 DPS (plus the archon adds another 15 dps). 30 DPS > 20 HP imo.

[unknownturok]

i might not take power attack im just not a big fan of it

[Ilklr]

i might not take power attack im just not a big fan of it

Really? I'm not trying to troll; you've just piqued my curiosity. Power attack is a huge boost to damage. Sure, it's no where near as good as the pnp version (which isn't capped, and constitutes a larger percentage of total damage), but a static +5/+10 damage to every hit is nothing to laugh at. And it can be boosted by some races/classes.

My best guess is that you don't like the -5 to hit. Honestly, that -5 is fairly negligible. I've never had a character where that -5 is game changing. At worst, you may have to situationally turn it off. But not having the option at all is limiting. After all, wouldn't we all be harassing the cleric if he had a +5 damage party buff that he wasn't giving us?
We would certainly be irritated by a bard that didn't sing for us.

[Chimeran]

The WF FvS will easily critical hit with a greatsword for 100-130dps base, depending on your build.
Take power attack !!!
I run my toon with maximum strength and max/high constitution, base stats for everything else.
511 HP un buffed
2500 spell points

Adamantine armor I use because it looks cool.
Maximize : I never use it, sure blade barriers are there, but I can stand in the spider ambush in Twilight Vale and just swing. When I built my toon, I wanted to rely on my sword skills as a Lord of Blade ( not Lord of Blade Barriers )

If your not casting Blade Barriers all the time, you really can go without Maximize.

The Greater Air Elemental pet is a must get. This thing even trips mobs on epic. I've had mine hold down 3 devils at once. You can solo anything without Blade Barriers.
I laugh whenever I see a non-Greater air elemental pet summoned by someone else.

Go maximum strength and max/high constitution.
Make yourself a LightningII Greatsword ( even miss the last tier like I did and spend your large scales on a cloak or bracers ).... Mineral II if you must

Things to collect:
Mindsunder Docent of Battle ( OMG this thing is pimp and gives me +100HP )
Mindsunder Titan Grips
Mindsunder Light&Darkness shield for when your in " Healbot mode "
Healing/spell point boosts belts/necklace from Amrath quests.
Superior Ardor clickie's ( minimum of 3 of these puppies ) = boosts your healing

Currently I have 2x ring slots empty and the bracers slot empty....
I easily heal any run, any epic, 3 empty equipment slots.... that's how cool these toons are. Yeah I will get gear in there some day

[unknownturok]

Really? I'm not trying to troll; you've just piqued my curiosity. Power attack is a huge boost to damage. Sure, it's no where near as good as the pnp version (which isn't capped, and constitutes a larger percentage of total damage), but a static +5/+10 damage to every hit is nothing to laugh at. And it can be boosted by some races/classes.

My best guess is that you don't like the -5 to hit. Honestly, that -5 is fairly negligible. I've never had a character where that -5 is game changing. At worst, you may have to situationally turn it off. But not having the option at all is limiting. After all, wouldn't we all be harassing the cleric if he had a +5 damage party buff that he wasn't giving us?
We would certainly be irritated by a bard that didn't sing for us.

its the -5 to hit that gets me idk its me really i mean i know others love it but i think i will get it try it out and if i dont like it at 20 just change it

[Ilklr]

its the -5 to hit that gets me idk its me really i mean i know others love it but i think i will get it try it out and if i dont like it at 20 just change it

Believe me, you want it. If you're missing a lot at high levels with PA on, it's likely a problem with the build. That being said, when you take the feat, or start using it, will depend on the build. It's not uncommon to see it taken at level 18. Some builds will use it at level 1. You just have to feel out when you can and cannot use it. But like I said, any time you're struggling to hit, you can always turn it off. (It's not permanent, it's a toggle). None of my builds have issues with PA past 6ish except vs. very-high AC targets.

All of that being said, there is one rule that supercedes all others: It's your build. Never let anyone else tell you how to make or play your character. We're all here to have fun.

[unknownturok]

All of that being said, there is one rule that supercedes all others: It's your build. Never let anyone else tell you how to make or play your character. We're all here to have fun.

thats what i like to hear some one helping me but not saying you **** bc you dont like it lol thanks i will try it out

[Matuse]

On the skill front, having .5 UMD doesn't do anything for you. Given how phenomenally unlikely we are ever to see the level cap raised (for which I am vastly grateful), that's a totally wasted skillpoint.

I'd also not bother to invest so much in Jump. 8-10 ranks is all that you really need. With that base and reasonably high strength (17+5 levels +2 tome + 6 item = 30, and then you start with litany, yugo pots, titan's grip, exceptionals, etc) you should easily be able to get a decent jump score for normal use. Then pick up a Morah's Belt for 45 minutes per rest of +30 Jump, which will effortlessly cap you. Jump height is hard capped at +40 skill. There's never a reason to go higher.

[Cardtrick]

I've updated the first post with what I believe to be a significantly stronger version of this build. I'm leveling up a character with this build, and it's very solid so far.

* Swapped Empower Healing out for Empower. The new Divine Punishment and Blade Barrier are useful enough that I prefer being able to empower & maximize them to the situationally increased mana efficiency of Empower Healing.
* Changed enhancements around to better support a hate-tanking role (brute fighting). After trying this a bit (admittedly still at low levels) I can really see the benefits of a resilient, self-healing tank in a lot of situations.
* Dropped starting Strength from 17 to 16 in order to bump starting int to 14. I know this is unorthodox on this sort of build, but I've been convinced of the value of the Balance skill, and the new Intimidate changes made it very appealing. This isn't going to be a max-DPS build in any case; I decided I would value the extra 2 skills more than the 1 point of strength.
* Significantly changed skills. Dropped diplo entirely, cut off jump earlier, brought intimidate and balance to their (cross class) max. Kept UMD and Concentration maxed, of course. This requires use of a +2 int tome; without a tome, I would suggest balance as the skill to drop. With the U9 changes, having some intimidate is actually very worthwhile; no longer is it only useful if you have a very high value. With the boost to melee threat from spamming intim, combined with the Brute Fighting enhancements, this build should be quite capable of holding aggro.

Ultimately, I feel like this is about as versatile a Favored Soul build as you're likely to get while staying pure-classed. The new DoT spell, Divine Punishment, along with the archon cannon and the spell damage boosts from AoV (to Blade Barrier, especially) allow this build to provide significant blue bar-based DPS despite its low-to-nonexistent DCs. With Improved Critical and Power Attack, and a decent strength, it can also provide reasonable melee damage -- nothing compared to a pure-DPS build, but enough to contribute. With Brute Fighting and the new Intimidate, this will also make a capable hate tank -- and the DR 14/adamantine helps to mitigate some of the resulting incoming damage. Despite all that, this build is a fully capable healing FvS, with Life Magic 4, plenty of SP, and both Maximize and Empower.

[Gaijinn]

thats what i like to hear some one helping me but not saying you **** bc you dont like it lol thanks i will try it out

You have no idea just how tired I am of the elitists not willing to explain or share knowledge to players that are relatively new to the game.

We've all been newbs, spread the knowledge instead of segregating!


Thank you for brightening my day Ilklr, +rep to you. Yes! We're here to have fun and people can build their characters the way they like! Guidance is however never wrong and I'm glad to see you're willing to do so, I for sure will never instant kick 90 hp mages at lvl 15, I will instead explain to them that they should consider LR'ing or rerolling since they will have a very hard time surviving or being accepted into raids.

On the sidenote, on my own 20 lord of the blades I was currently only using MCLW and MCMW with empower healing and having issues with SP conserving. Perhaps it's because of the low hp toons in shroud, but I like the argue that death pact isn't necessary since it's instant raise and will likely kill you instantly again. Hopefully MCCW will save me some sp when I don't have the time to mass heal.
Thanks.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I've updated the first post with what I believe to be a significantly stronger version of this build. I'm leveling up a character with this build, and it's very solid so far.

* Swapped Empower Healing out for Empower. The new Divine Punishment and Blade Barrier are useful enough that I prefer being able to empower & maximize them to the situationally increased mana efficiency of Empower Healing.
* Changed enhancements around to better support a hate-tanking role (brute fighting). After trying this a bit (admittedly still at low levels) I can really see the benefits of a resilient, self-healing tank in a lot of situations.
* Dropped starting Strength from 17 to 16 in order to bump starting int to 14. I know this is unorthodox on this sort of build, but I've been convinced of the value of the Balance skill, and the new Intimidate changes made it very appealing. This isn't going to be a max-DPS build in any case; I decided I would value the extra 2 skills more than the 1 point of strength.
* Significantly changed skills. Dropped diplo entirely, cut off jump earlier, brought intimidate and balance to their (cross class) max. Kept UMD and Concentration maxed, of course. This requires use of a +2 int tome; without a tome, I would suggest balance as the skill to drop. With the U9 changes, having some intimidate is actually very worthwhile; no longer is it only useful if you have a very high value. With the boost to melee threat from spamming intim, combined with the Brute Fighting enhancements, this build should be quite capable of holding aggro.

Ultimately, I feel like this is about as versatile a Favored Soul build as you're likely to get while staying pure-classed. The new DoT spell, Divine Punishment, along with the archon cannon and the spell damage boosts from AoV (to Blade Barrier, especially) allow this build to provide significant blue bar-based DPS despite its low-to-nonexistent DCs. With Improved Critical and Power Attack, and a decent strength, it can also provide reasonable melee damage -- nothing compared to a pure-DPS build, but enough to contribute. With Brute Fighting and the new Intimidate, this will also make a capable hate tank -- and the DR 14/adamantine helps to mitigate some of the resulting incoming damage. Despite all that, this build is a fully capable healing FvS, with Life Magic 4, plenty of SP, and both Maximize and Empower.

Some good updates. Similar to what I did, I had 12 starting int and 11 starting charisma so that I could have the 17 strength. Strength is very important to me as your ability to hold aggro is marginal at best.

Make sure that you keep a free feat swap so that when Divine Avenger comes out you can swap empower for something combat related perhaps if a throw away feat is required.

I really wouldn't worry about jump, once you get the +30 jump clicky you'll wonder why you bothered. Though, with adamantine body it's **** hard to jump out of the water when dead in abbott.

Enjoy.

[Bart_D]

this is interesting, close to what i might tr into if i remain pure fvs. a couple of comments though

- maybe concentration really is negotiable? if you run with quicken, it only affects scroll healing

- im not sure 2 points of dr are worth a feat and the reduction to balance/jump/tumble

- evasion and full intimidate/umd would be nice, but would require a rogue splash... is it worth the innate dr (docent of defiance is an option) and capstone?

- atm im playing my human fvs without using empower or extend, just to see if they are needed. i havent played a lot since the update but don't feel a huge diffeence so far

- re equipment and skills: the jump belt is great, wish i had not wasted skill points on it

[Cardtrick]

Thanks for the feedback!

Re: Jump. With the penalty from Adamantine Body, some investment in jump is necessary to hit the all-important 35-40 modified jump score, even with a Morah's Belt or other source of +30 Jump. Maybe "necessary" is the wrong word -- if you're also willing to rely on GH and Rage, or you don't mind wasting a slot on a + Jump skill item, I think you may be able to get there without putting points in. But not being able to jump is just so painful while leveling.

Re: Adamantine Body. I'm planning to keep this feat at end-game for now, but it's the first thing I'd drop if I found I needed a new feat for future changes. Even if I do that, I would strongly suggest keeping it up through at least level 12. Low levels are a breeze with this build, since Adamantine Body gives both DR and enough armor bonus to make obtaining a useful AC easy through the early-mid levels (barkskin +3 pots and shield of faith are pretty much all you need).

Re: Concentration. No, I really, really don't think that's negotiable. Dropping Balance or Jump or even UMD would probably make more sense. Remember, Quicken doesn't affect scroll use, and it costs SP. To save SP, you're either going to be using scrolls or turning Quicken off -- neither of which you can do without Concentration. This is especially true for a build like this that's intended to be meleeing much of the time.

[Cardtrick]

I'm strongly considering swapping out Adamantine Body for Shield Mastery at level 20. Any thoughts on this? It seems that the situational (tanking, shield-blocking for Torc/ConcOpp SP regain, etc.) use of 20% damage reduction would be very worthwhile, to the point that it would make sense to go back to 12 DR from 14 by losing Addy body.

[OldAquarian]

I'm strongly considering swapping out Adamantine Body for Shield Mastery at level 20. Any thoughts on this? It seems that the situational (tanking, shield-blocking for Torc/ConcOpp SP regain, etc.) use of 20% damage reduction would be very worthwhile, to the point that it would make sense to go back to 12 DR from 14 by losing Addy body.

Have you found Addy body useful up to 19? Or is there some lower level where this swap might make sense?

[Cardtrick]

Have you found Addy body useful up to 19? Or is there some lower level where this swap might make sense?

It was extremely useful up to level 12, both for the DR and the AC. I cast shield of faith, put an alchemical armor ritual on blademark's docent, drank Barkskin +3 pots, and was nearly untouchable. I could self-heal, of course, but practically never needed to.

Since level 12, it's been less effective. You're right, it may make more sense to swap it out at 12 or 15. That's about the time that shield-blocking against bosses and using Divine Punishment to DoT them down becomes a really viable strategy.

In my case, I'm going to keep it until cap, because I want to see what it's like having DR 14/adamantine in Amrath and end-game questing, but after doing some more research I'm strongly leaning toward dropping it.