Shield Mastery

[dunklezhan]

imp shield bash: passive 20% offhand proc chance for a shield bash
Shield mastery: far as i can tell, always-on % damage reduction based on shield size, usual static DR as per the shield when blocking

Imp shield mastery: no change. which seems odd to me as the extra +3 DR when blocking probably isn't worth the extra feat.

probably worth the imp bash and basic mastery feats though.

[Aesop]

Well, actually, I'd prefer for the shield feats to get improved such that they can replace another combat style's chain, but I can't imagine that happening without a major concurrent shift in the focus of the game.

I'm right there with ya Seph. I'd perfer that Shield would be a full style and it seems like they are trying to make it thus... still some room for improvements.

Perhaps if Shields themselves included a portion of the improvements within them before additional feats were taken it would be a better option.

Make Shields have a 15% Passive Shield Bash and have Improved Shield Bash add 25%

Make Shields have a 0/5/10% Passive Damage Mitigation and have Shield Mastery add 10% and ISM add an additional 10%

Toss in Shield Spikes as a craftable addition to Shields that have offensive properties on them to add in some extra damage

Aesop

[kcru]

I corrected my observations on the ISM dr being passive.

I agree with your observations on SM. It is a very nice feat as it stands right now. Now if they would only carry over the new damage resistance that SM has into a new ISM then it would be a great thing for S&B characters.

They should probably just up the damage mitigation from 20% to 25% or 30% with improved.

[Ironforge_Clan]

I'm right there with ya Seph. I'd perfer that Shield would be a full style and it seems like they are trying to make it thus... still some room for improvements.

Perhaps if Shields themselves included a portion of the improvements within them before additional feats were taken it would be a better option.

Make Shields have a 15% Passive Shield Bash and have Improved Shield Bash add 25%

Make Shields have a 0/5/10% Passive Damage Mitigation and have Shield Mastery add 10% and ISM add an additional 10%

Toss in Shield Spikes as a craftable addition to Shields that have offensive properties on them to add in some extra damage

Aesop

Very nice idea here Aesop....I like it a lot.

[wax_on_wax_off]

If I could get on Lama I would, but I'd be really interested to know what the damage is like on this. Specifically:

How much damage was the bash attack doing when it triggered?
What other feats do you have? Does Power Attack affect the damage? Weapon Specialization? Improved Critical?
If you change shields (from light, to heavy to tower, from +1 to +5, etc...) does the bash damage change?
Did you test it against monsters with DR? Did it bypass their DR?

Shields are blunt weapons for purposes of weapon focus, weapon specialisation etc. and bypassing DR. I saw in the release notes that mithral and adamantine shields will now bypass monster DR appropriately. Each shield has a damage die associated with it and gets the shields enhancement bonus to attack and damage as a normal weapon.

This is just from my own research on the forums of previously available information

Looks like we might see the warhammer specced stalwarts and DoS' more and more!

[t0r012]

Shields are blunt weapons for purposes of weapon focus, weapon specialisation etc. and bypassing DR. I saw in the release notes that mithral and adamantine shields will now bypass monster DR appropriately. Each shield has a damage die associated with it and gets the shields enhancement bonus to attack and damage as a normal weapon.

This is just from my own research on the forums of previously available information

Looks like we might see the warhammer specced stalwarts and DoS' more and more!

I've been wondering about dwarf axe and shield, or even a bastard sword and shield for picking up the glancing blows on top of the 20% shield bash.
20% strike chance with shield added to glancing blows from THF you could make a passable S&B damage toon. Sure still not quite good but atleast not awful.
though I do wish there was more than 20% on ISB.

Would limit you to fighter still all the shield feats and THF chain is a lot of cost for a still substandard build. But at least now it wouldn't be seen as a complete flavor build/wasted part slot.

[elraido]

What about shields that already have a dr built into them? i.e. Light and Darkness. Does the DR "Stack"?

[IronClan]

What about shields that already have a dr built into them? i.e. Light and Darkness. Does the DR "Stack"?

Nothing changes with that, very little DR stacks, and the 10%/15%/20% damage mitigation from shield mastery feat is not DR.

In the same way that miss chance from 10% dusk, 20% blur or 50% Displacement aren't AC.

[voodoogroves]

I personally will be looking at this first for my Tukaw, second for my PM.

Possible third one of my FVSes.

[justagame]

Is the damage mitigation before or after DR?

For example, let's say you have DR 10 and a tower shield (with shield mastery), for a 20% reduction. You get hit for what would have been 15 hp of damage. Is the actual damage

(15-10) * 80% = 4

or

15 * 80% - 10 = 2

[grodon9999]

The second Shield mastery feat should allow SD/DoS to get their blocking AC while in stance regardless as to if they are blocking or not.

[voodoogroves]

The second Shield mastery feat should allow SD/DoS to get their blocking AC while in stance regardless as to if they are blocking or not.

That'd be nice.

[IronClan]

Yeah it would be nice, if it wasn't for the fact that those builds are already giving up massive opporunity cost for AC to begin with...

To get 70+ Armored AC:
Most Enhacements points (PrE and preqs, Armor mastery, Pali aura's etc.) like 50-60 APs
13 Int for CE
High Dex to fill max dex bonus on armor
Off hand devoted to AC
Nearly every gear slot devoted to AC
Massive grind for Sovreign rune of Leviks, Leviks set, Siberys TOD set, Chattering Ring, among other grinds.

So why not pile a couple more feats into the mix

They need to make S&B basically viable WITHOUT those feats... and then add those feats to make them a little more fun on top of being moderately viable IMO.

[kcru]

Yeah it would be nice, if it wasn't for the fact that those builds are already giving up massive opporunity cost for AC to begin with...

To get 70+ Armored AC:
Most Enhacements points (PrE and preqs, Armor mastery, Pali aura's etc.) like 50-60 APs
13 Int for CE
High Dex to fill max dex bonus on armor
Off hand devoted to AC
Nearly every gear slot devoted to AC
Massive grind for Sovreign rune of Leviks, Leviks set, Siberys TOD set, Chattering Ring, among other grinds.

So why not pile a couple more feats into the mix

They need to make S&B basically viable WITHOUT those feats... and then add those feats to make them a little more fun on top of being moderately viable IMO.

Improved Shield Mastery could also just provide a 30% miss chance, like dusk/displacement, so it's good regardless of what your actual AC is. At that point, if you're a shield master you could readjust your equipment.

[Ralmeth]

From a long-time Pally DoS player, I like the sound of the new shield feats and will hopefully get time to test them out on Lamannia. Having said that, I am very much against making improved shield mastery a must have for a S&B defender. Why? Because on my half-elf Pally DoS there is no way I can afford improved shield mastery. I think a S&B Fighter can benefit from having the feats available to take bastard sword or dwarven axe and the THF line and possibly cleave, great cleave, etc in addition to the shield feats which will make Fighters excel at crowd control hate tanking while Paladins will be better off at boss mob hate tanking. It's kind of an interesting trade off in play style if this is how the changes pan out.

[EKKM]

The second Shield mastery feat should allow SD/DoS to get their blocking AC while in stance regardless as to if they are blocking or not.

That's a good idea since blocking is now useless and all the PRE prvode the most benefit when blocking...

[elraido]

The second Shield mastery feat should allow SD/DoS to get their blocking AC while in stance regardless as to if they are blocking or not.

So it is like the firestorm greeves. The % is taken off after all other DR effects take place.

[sephiroth1084]

Nothing changes with that, very little DR stacks, and the 10%/15%/20% damage mitigation from shield mastery feat is not DR.

In the same way that miss chance from 10% dusk, 20% blur or 50% Displacement aren't AC.

Incorrect. The % DR stacks with existing DR...

Is the damage mitigation before or after DR?

For example, let's say you have DR 10 and a tower shield (with shield mastery), for a 20% reduction. You get hit for what would have been 15 hp of damage. Is the actual damage

(15-10) * 80% = 4

or

15 * 80% - 10 = 2

From what I've read, the % is applied first, for, in your example, 2 damage going through. I'm particularly interested in this for tanking Horoth or the boss at the end of Epic DA (Turigon or something...can't ever remember the name...Sirgog, chime in here ) that hit for around 100 damage per swing: that goes down to 80 with a tower before your DR 5 or 10 is applied.

The second Shield mastery feat should allow SD/DoS to get their blocking AC while in stance regardless as to if they are blocking or not.

I think this would A) be excessive (DR 20% + DR 50/-- after?) and B) does nothing at all to make using a shield attractive for anyone else.

Maybe Improved Shield Mastery could add a percentage of your blocking DR to your passive fixed DR? For example, if the feat were 10% and you had blocking DR of 33 you would gain a stacking DR 3/- when not blocking. Not sure that this would be too attractive, as a feat for 1 or 2 DR isn't too thrilling a trade-off, and even for 5 DR for the ultra-high blocking DR builds seems pretty tough to justify.

[elraido]

Not sure that this would be too attractive, as a feat for 1 or 2 DR isn't too thrilling a trade-off, and even for 5 DR for the ultra-high blocking DR builds seems pretty tough to justify.

Especially for Paladins. They simply do not have the feats to do this.

[andreascott89]

Hmm. Interesting.

This seems like a bigger deal for a NON-AC build.

The shield mastery reduces the hit chance by 20%. If you were going to get hit 95% of the time (low AC) you now get hit .95*.8 or 76% of the time. If you had a high AC and are only getting hit 5% of the time, you are now only getting hit 4% of the time.

For the ultra high AC build, I guess it mitigates 20% of incoming damage. However, for the ultra low AC, it is like a free upgrade to somewhat useful AC!

Hmm. Maybe a dwarven axe wielding THF barb with really nice DR could find a use for this...

J