Shield Mastery

[Cyr]

Hmm. Interesting.

This seems like a bigger deal for a NON-AC build.

The shield mastery reduces the hit chance by 20%. If you were going to get hit 95% of the time (low AC) you now get hit .95*.8 or 76% of the time. If you had a high AC and are only getting hit 5% of the time, you are now only getting hit 4% of the time.

For the ultra high AC build, I guess it mitigates 20% of incoming damage. However, for the ultra low AC, it is like a free upgrade to somewhat useful AC!

Hmm. Maybe a dwarven axe wielding THF barb with really nice DR could find a use for this...

J

This does NOT create an added miss chance. The two are mechanically different in various ways the most important two being that a reduction in damage done still results in guards going off and less damage spikes (making healing easier).

[andreascott89]

This does NOT create an added miss chance. The two are mechanically different in various ways the most important two being that a reduction in damage done still results in guards going off and less damage spikes (making healing easier).

Good point. I was meaning an equivalent AC in terms of average damage, but you make a good point that smoothing out damage spikes and firing off guards make it better.

J

[sephiroth1084]

Shields are blunt weapons for purposes of weapon focus, weapon specialisation etc. and bypassing DR. I saw in the release notes that mithral and adamantine shields will now bypass monster DR appropriately. Each shield has a damage die associated with it and gets the shields enhancement bonus to attack and damage as a normal weapon.

This is just from my own research on the forums of previously available information

Looks like we might see the warhammer specced stalwarts and DoS' more and more!

I know how it's supposed to work under the D&D 3.5 rules, but I want to know if that is how it is working with the new feat. Pretty sure gameplay experience had shown that shields weren't benefiting from bludgeoning-focused feats in the past, for one thing.

[IronClan]

Incorrect. The % DR stacks with existing DR...

The % damage mitigation from the shield feat is not "DR" so of course it doesn't "stack" with DR, it works and DR works, DR is unchanged... So I'm correct and your statement is false.

If you have a 10 blocking DR and a tower shield and this feat, you don't get 10 DR + 20% = 12 DR

You get -20% to all damage and the 10 DR either comes off the top before the -20%, or is subtracted from the remainder after the -20%...(probably the former)

Either way no "stacking" has occured. My comment was addessed at someone asking if DR stacks now or is changed. The DR on the shield he asked about is still there and it's not the same thing as the percentage reduction of damage from the feat.

[sephiroth1084]

The % damage mitigation from the shield feat is not "DR" so of course it doesn't "stack" with DR, it works and DR works, DR is unchanged... So I'm correct and your statement is false.

If you have a 10 blocking DR and a tower shield and this feat, you don't get 10 DR + 20% = 12 DR

You get -20% to all damage and the 10 DR either comes off the top before the -20%, or is subtracted from the remainder after the -20%...(probably the former)

Either way no "stacking" has occured. My comment was addessed at someone asking if DR stacks now or is changed. The DR on the shield he asked about is still there and it's not the same thing as the percentage reduction of damage from the feat.

Depends on outlook I guess. An effect that reduces incoming physical damage by a direct mechanic sounds like DR to me, even if its DR %/- instead of DR X/-.

As far as stacking goes, there are really only two ways to look at the process in terms of gameplay: either two effects work together for an increased bonus of some kind, or they don't. They may "stack" in an unconventional manner, but they do stack insofar as having both of them is better than having just one or the other.

I'd rather say that this new type of DR stacks with the old, and then qualifying that statement with an explanation of how these work, rather than saying no, they don't and then explaining how these effects work. People, in general, have rather poor reading comprehension. If they ask, "Will these effects stack?" and you say, "No, but..." they are far more likely to seize upon that "No" and less likely to interpret what follows correctly, whereas if you say, "Yes, but..." they will either read the "Yes" and make their decision based upon their own (possibly false) expectations of the way the thing works, or will more likely absorb your following explanation, because it reinforces their desires, rather than seeming to be an explanation trying to tell them why the "No" isn't as bad as it seems.

[IronClan]

Depends on outlook I guess.

That's true, but generally speaking when someone says "stacks" in DDO they mean the two things increase each other to one larger number.

These "stack" in the same way 20% Blur "stacks" with AC.

[Glenalth]

Thew new enhancement isn't granting "Damage Reduction", but it is "damage reduction".

Usually when there is a weird semi-stacking thing like this, I just tell people that it's "layered" instead of stacking. It puts forth a better concept of X happens then Y happens, instead of X+Y happens.

[sephiroth1084]

Thew new enhancement isn't granting "Damage Reduction", but it is "damage reduction".

Usually when there is a weird semi-stacking thing like this, I just tell people that it's "layered" instead of stacking. It puts forth a better concept of X happens then Y happens, instead of X+Y happens.

If I'd seen that sort of terminology used elsewhere, I'd probably adopt it for describing stuff like this (and things like elemental absorption effects interacting with resistances/protections). I have a feeling, though, that no one would know what I was talking about if I just said they were layered. Maybe we can proliferate the terminology?

As an aside, the Proliferate mechanic in the new Magic set is stupid.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Thew new enhancement isn't granting "Damage Reduction", but it is "damage reduction".

Usually when there is a weird semi-stacking thing like this, I just tell people that it's "layered" instead of stacking. It puts forth a better concept of X happens then Y happens, instead of X+Y happens.

It definitely isn't "damage reduction". In fact they are labeling it "damage resistance" so that, I believe, it is clear that it is something entirely different.

Also, from my testing the damage resistance is being applied first and the damage reduction is being applied second. So if a 100 point hit come in and my fighter has a tower shield he would take 80 points of damage. If that same hit came in and I was blocking my fighter would take 34 points of damage [(100 * .8) - 46].

[AylinIsAwesome]

I'm not sure how I feel about the improvements to the two feats. I'm pretty feat-starved as it is, and at most I can see fitting in one. (I'm a Paladin)

I do know I'm totally against ISM being made mandatory. There's absolutely no way I could fit that in too.


Ideally though, I'd prefer them to combine Shield Mastery and ISB.

[Aesop]

I'm not sure how I feel about the improvements to the two feats. I'm pretty feat-starved as it is, and at most I can see fitting in one. (I'm a Paladin)

I do know I'm totally against ISM being made mandatory. There's absolutely no way I could fit that in too.


Ideally though, I'd prefer them to combine Shield Mastery and ISB.

Yes for a Paladin it would be tough to fit in some feats... but Fighters get a lot of Feats. Fighters need there niche as well. Paladins get Spells and Smites. Don't feel bad that you can't fit all the Feat you may want in on a Paladin. Feats aren't a paladins specialty... that's what Fighters get.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes for a Paladin it would be tough to fit in some feats... but Fighters get a lot of Feats. Fighters need there niche as well. Paladins get Spells and Smites. Don't feel bad that you can't fit all the Feat you may want in on a Paladin. Feats aren't a paladins specialty... that's what Fighters get.

Well, the issue here is that if we're getting some rebalancing to S&B it should be accessible to the characters who are likely to be using that style, which means that it can't be residing in 2-3 feats, or those feats have to be strong enough to warrant dropping stuff like TWF for them.From what I've seen of Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash, this isn't the case.

Plus, the Stalwart Defender PrE is actually already providing more bonuses than the DoS, even if paladins have more bonuses from outside the PrE than the fighter does, and the fighter would be picking these up easily.

[IronClan]

Well, the issue here is that if we're getting some rebalancing to S&B it should be accessible to the characters who are likely to be using that style, which means that it can't be residing in 2-3 feats, or those feats have to be strong enough to warrant dropping stuff like TWF for them.From what I've seen of Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash, this isn't the case.

Plus, the Stalwart Defender PrE is actually already providing more bonuses than the DoS, even if paladins have more bonuses from outside the PrE than the fighter does, and the fighter would be picking these up easily.

I agree with you here, every word. Pali's get less from their defensive PrE as it stands, and they invest WAY more AP's than the fighter to boot (full line of AC aura where the Stalwart gets free AC and Intim points from the PrE in additiuon to the stance AC gains). The Pali gets 2 completely useless clickies and one kinda cool clickie if it last more than 20 seconds.

I think they need to be careful about making S&B "good enough to be viable" through feats... Unless they want to make DoS include at least one or two of the feats in question.... Eladrin can have my "Magic circle against evil /cough protection from evil spell" and replace it with Improved shield bash, and my "Mass shield of faith" /cough I already own that spell and wear a +5 prot item and no one else needs AC.... He can replace that with Shield mastery (okay I admit that would be too much, so give me one of them and take both those dumb spells)

Moar pigeonholing

Make S&B viable then make the three or four feats the "icing on top"...

[Aesop]

Well, the issue here is that if we're getting some rebalancing to S&B it should be accessible to the characters who are likely to be using that style, which means that it can't be residing in 2-3 feats, or those feats have to be strong enough to warrant dropping stuff like TWF for them.From what I've seen of Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash, this isn't the case.

Plus, the Stalwart Defender PrE is actually already providing more bonuses than the DoS, even if paladins have more bonuses from outside the PrE than the fighter does, and the fighter would be picking these up easily.

The basic ability of S&B should be increased, but I did already say that a page or two ago.

However, if you make it so Fighters and Paladins can get the entirety of the S&B line and all its associated effects and TWF line what is the incentive to actually playing a Fighter?

Fighters are all about the Feats after all. They don't get nifty magic spells, immunity to fear and disease, really good saves, an aura effect, or regenerating Smites.

They have Feat. Isn't it reasonable that a paladin would have to choose 1 style and go with it? while the fighter can truly trick out his style(s)?

Now another area i agree with you about is that S&B should be more effective over all. 20% chance to Shield Bash and upto 20% damage mitigation doesn't really cover it...not by half.

They should also likely tier the abilities like the other line feats are as well.


ISB may be able to be taken at level 1 but maybe make SM BAB 6 and ISM BAB 11 to mimick the other lines.

Using a Shield could have a 10% base chance to proc a Shield Bash ISB could improve that by 15%

Shield could also grant a % damage mitigation on thier own and the other feat could ramp that up as well.

0% for Buckler and Small Shield
5% for Large Shields
10% for Tower Shields

Shield Mastey could improve that and the Shield Bash Proc rate both by 10%

Improved Shield Mastery could improve both again by 10%

grand totals before PrEs of

Shield Bash 45%
Shield Mitigation 20-30%

or something like that anyway numbers could be fudged some

Aesop

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, Aesop, what I meant was that the shield feats need to either be accessible to paladins who are also taking a DPS weapon line, or need to be strong enough that replacing a DPS weapon line isn't a huge loss. Keep in mind, also, that the top tier of Shield Mastery's benefits are hard to come by on a paladin, as they don't gain tower shield proficiency.

A fighter can more easily afford two weapon lines, though they, too, would have a little difficulty as they likely want Slashing focus for DPS, while Improved Shield Bash is tugging at them to go bludgeoning. So far, I haven't seen any real info on what the shield bash damage is like, or how dependent upon your shield's stats the damage is. I doubt it is enough to compensate a fighter who drops khopesh, bastard sword or dwarven axe for bludgeoning to boost his shield bashing.

I'm concerned about how much the shield itself actually plays into DPS since that would require shield bashing characters to have a much tougher time selecting their off-hand weapon than TWF characters do, since it would need to be based on both defensive bonuses and offensive, and I seriously doubt that we'll see many shields that offer even halfway decent stats in both.

[Khellendros13]

I think, if I wear my DoD and actively block with Shield mastery and Levik's Defender I will significantly reduce incoming damage on Horath.

DoD+Levik's+blocking = 20+15+10 = 45 DR

100dmg (avg I guess per hit) -45 = 55 - 20% = 44dmg per hit

This is ~300 or less dmg per 6 seconds. Medlas will be extra. I think Heal spell and Heal scroll would allow a fvs or cleric to solo heal me on Elite.

Interesting.

[IronClan]

Yeah, Aesop, what I meant was that the shield feats need to either be accessible to paladins who are also taking a DPS weapon line, or need to be strong enough that replacing a DPS weapon line isn't a huge loss. Keep in mind, also, that the top tier of Shield Mastery's benefits are hard to come by on a paladin, as they don't gain tower shield proficiency.

A fighter can more easily afford two weapon lines, though they, too, would have a little difficulty as they likely want Slashing focus for DPS, while Improved Shield Bash is tugging at them to go bludgeoning. So far, I haven't seen any real info on what the shield bash damage is like, or how dependent upon your shield's stats the damage is. I doubt it is enough to compensate a fighter who drops khopesh, bastard sword or dwarven axe for bludgeoning to boost his shield bashing.

I'm concerned about how much the shield itself actually plays into DPS since that would require shield bashing characters to have a much tougher time selecting their off-hand weapon than TWF characters do, since it would need to be based on both defensive bonuses and offensive, and I seriously doubt that we'll see many shields that offer even halfway decent stats in both.

Nope already parced this out looks like the best combo of bashing and AC is very sub par AC and only adds shield spikes... and the best bashing shield is probably mostly undead (Ward of Undeath)... The best compromise weighted to AC first is Leviks due to the decent d12 +5 base damage, and obviously the best AC for a pali. L&D is interesting for a true neutral... Basically none of them are particularly exciting for bashing except Epic Ward .

I would Really like to see a stone of change ritual to add shield spikes...

Unfortunately crafting isn't going to prove much of an answer because the best shields are named... a +5 Mithral tower with some goodies crafted into it might be interesting in situations where you're way over the AC for the quest... but ... meh... Unless they really give some nice prefixes... Shocking burst +5 Mithral Tower (1d12+5) of pure good and then a stone of change ritual to add shield spikes... yeah that'd be sweet

[sephiroth1084]

I think, if I wear my DoD and actively block with Shield mastery and Levik's Defender I will significantly reduce incoming damage on Horath.

DoD+Levik's+blocking = 20+15+10 = 45 DR

100dmg (avg I guess per hit) -45 = 55 - 20% = 44dmg per hit

This is ~300 or less dmg per 6 seconds. Medlas will be extra. I think Heal spell and Heal scroll would allow a fvs or cleric to solo heal me on Elite.

Interesting.

I think this illustrates pretty well why intimidate had to be changed in order for this feat to ever see the light of day.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Yes for a Paladin it would be tough to fit in some feats... but Fighters get a lot of Feats. Fighters need there niche as well. Paladins get Spells and Smites. Don't feel bad that you can't fit all the Feat you may want in on a Paladin. Feats aren't a paladins specialty... that's what Fighters get.

I'm not saying I should be able to fit in all the feats I want; ideally I'd love to also have the THF line but I know I have to make some sacrifices. However, if the way to beef up S&B is to make it cost 2 or 3 feats to do so, then it's utterly impossible for me take advantage of that in any way. I can't drop another combat chain for it simply because I just don't have one.

The feats I have are these:

Adamantine Body
Toughness
Khopesh
Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Improved Critical
Dodge

I know I can reasonably drop Dodge for a new feat, so that's not an issue, but I doubt I could drop 2.

If the improvement to S&B was only 1 feat though, then Paladins would have access to it, and Fighters would still be able to pick up things that I just simply can't, like Dodge (under the new setup), the THF chain, and so forth. That's where I'm coming from on this.

[Xenus_Paradox]

I'm not saying I should be able to fit in all the feats I want; ideally I'd love to also have the THF line but I know I have to make some sacrifices. However, if the way to beef up S&B is to make it cost 2 or 3 feats to do so, then it's utterly impossible for me take advantage of that in any way. I can't drop another combat chain for it simply because I just don't have one.

The feats I have are these:

Adamantine Body
Toughness
Khopesh
Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Improved Critical
Dodge

I know I can reasonably drop Dodge for a new feat, so that's not an issue, but I doubt I could drop 2.

If the improvement to S&B was only 1 feat though, then Paladins would have access to it, and Fighters would still be able to pick up things that I just simply can't, like Dodge (under the new setup), the THF chain, and so forth. That's where I'm coming from on this.

You should crunch the numbers and see if Adamantine Body + DR enhancements give better damage mitigation than Shield Mastery. If not, you know what to drop, and you'll save some AP to boot.