are FVS worthless? it seems so to me

[azrael4h]

SP? FvS.
Stats needed? Cleric.

Favored Souls only need WIS for offensive casting; CHA only up to 19. Since you can start a base 8 CHA, and have more sp and net the 19 you need (8 +2tome +2capstone +6item +1enhancement = 19), it is not a serious requirement. Most every Cleric will be slotting a +6 CHA item just as well, if not their enhancements as well, and get more use out of a higher CHA than even the FvS. My Cleric and FvS are dead even on CHA investment right now.

So stats needed for both = WIS and CON, assuming both are casters and not melee. FvS pulls ahead on melee because a Cleric still needs to invest in CHA for RS abilities and WIS for spells and sp, in addition to STR and CON. FvS only needs STR and CON. This is ignoring, of course, Wings and 10DR/whatever (or even 15DR/Adamantine!).

[Letrii]

My FvS always dumps Wis and uses spells that aren't affected by mob saving.

[Chette]

I have seen nothing to make favored souls even remotely superior to clerics in any way except a little extra hps/spell points.

40 hp and 600-700 spell points is more than a little

Favored souls get a few enhancements/feats that will boost their melee ability with a specialized weapon up a little, but nothing that will really make any difference compared to a cleric

It is I believe +4 to damage from favourite weapons, that's the equivalent of +8 strength worth of damage. This is not nothing either.

They also get a couple free boosts like +10 elemental resist, again, not really a huge benefit when you can easily cast elemental protection spells or use airships.

The resists stack and cannot be dispelled. Not anything to switch classes over, but particularly nice for things like burning blood.

Clerics get all the spells and don't have to pay to switch them out.

I don't remember the last time I switch out a spell on my FvS. Getting all the spells is handy for a splashed 18/2 who has to chose only 1 level 9 spell, but is otherwise not particularly important. Level 6 is a tad tight with Heal, symbol of persuasion, blade barrier and comet fall.

Clerics can get that great healing blast/aura for very cheap enhancement costs.

The healing aura/burst are very nice. They help make up for the lack of spell points. But to have a good amount of them you will probably want to put points into charisma, and/or take extra turning feats/enhancements. They also only center on yourself, and for a non melee cleric, especially one with lower HP (40 lower than a FvS with the same stats and feats!) you're frequently not standing with the party.

Clerics can turn, favored souls can't.

Turn undead is totally uesless end game. The bursts and DVs are indeed nice though.

Clerics have one stat for their spells (wisdom) where as favored souls are screwed and are broken down into 2 stats (wisdom for dc, charisma for sp's).

All of my clerics have started with higher charisma than all of my favoured souls. You need 19 Cha to cast your spells, start at 10, eat a tome, wear an item, take 1 enhancement. For clerics on the other hand Charisma adds to your turn undeads and is required if you want divine might.

I don't see really any benefit for favored souls for their huge cost in favor needed(or having to buy) compared to a good cleric.

A good cleric is more flexible, and can usually be a better healer. A FvS is more of a specialist, and will have more sheer raw power in their chosen area of specialization (be it melee of casting).

With the new PrE coming out in U9, this difference will be even more profound.

[hu-flung-pu]

With the new PrE coming out in U9, this difference will be even more profound.

This is the crux of the argument I think.

Across the board increase in damage be it melée or spells on a favored soul is what will set them apart from the healing clerics.

[muffinlad]

First, to the OP, thanks for being brave enough to ask that question.
Second, also to the OP, you get more flies with honey than you do with Vinegar.

Asking "Are FvS worthless? It seems so to me." pretty much gives you the near flaming responses you got. Second, it gives the feeling that you are either focused on "trolling" or here to state an opinion you have not fully considered (and I am not saying that is true, it is just the "feel" of it.)

What I think you could have done is said "I looked at FvS, and I don't see why people like them. Enlighten me."

Or "I am having a hard time seeing the value in FvS, does anyone think they need a boost?"

You got some very detailed responses as to why FvS are a great class to play.

I play 4 Clerics (Cl, Cj, Phrank, Cw.) All slightly different builds, all levels 17 to 20.
I play 4 FvS (Cs, Lorhne, Ct, Roewe) 20 to TR'd 17.

Not only do I find FvS MORE fun to play (a personal choice), they are a far better fit as to why I play to help the party (heals and general buffs, mixed with DPS tossed in).

Naturally, Clerics can be mixed in that way, but I generally find them substandard due to the way I choose to play them, and they are more focused on HEALing/debuffing, and I find their Mana Pool limiting.

While I enjoy playing clerics, the ONLY thing that stops me from TRing into a FvS on all my clerics...is that 2 of 4 have Blue Dragon Scale Heavy Armor (and I don't want to spend a feat on it, or go run for more of them).

YMMV...naturally.

muffinthoughts.

[twix]

Maybe yours is , but mine is doing just fine..

[mystafyi]

i have seen nothing to make Clerics even remotely superior to Favored Souls in any way

Fixed that for ya

[erikbozelie]

clerics: get free healing based on turns(charisma), and spells based on wisdom.
fvs: gets spells based on charisma and effectiveness on wisdom.

so they both need wisdom and charisma.

id say clerics are the better nuker per spell because they have an higher healing amp, and they can easy-er obtain an high wisdom because they can dump charisma. they get about half theyre healing of turns, and this is with 8 charisma and no turning feats.

favorite souls however gets about twice the ammount of spell points clerics get. they can dump wisdom, but this will ruin the effectiveness of the fvs spells. so its adviced to take them both.

both go extremely well with 2 monk splashes, but only the cleric can fit in an 3rd splash of level without losing level 9 spells.

fvs aint useless, just look at them as sorcerers spell points pool entirely dedicated for healing.
while clerics are the wizardlike low spell point toons with healing spell like abilities.

[azrael4h]

clerics: get free healing based on turns(charisma), and spells based on wisdom.
fvs: gets spells based on charisma and effectiveness on wisdom.

so they both need wisdom and charisma.

To a degree. Favored Souls only need 19 CHA, which is obtainable with vendor gear, a +2 store-bought tome, and an 8 base CHA.

id say clerics are the better nuker per spell because they have an higher healing amp, and they can easy-er obtain an high wisdom because they can dump charisma. they get about half theyre healing of turns, and this is with 8 charisma and no turning feats.

This makes no sense. Damage wise, they are currently equal, though FvS will soon get a huge boost. Neither class gains healing amp of any kind, period.

Favored Souls do not need to invest in CHA. Past 10, it is a waste. 29sp per two points in CHA is not a worthwhile return on investment, and even with an 8 base a FvS will still beat a comparable geared Cleric in sp. If a FvS is invested heavily in CHA, then that one needs to reroll.

So a FvS and a Cleric investing in WIS will end up a staggering 1 point difference, assuming otherwise identical gear and builds. Clerics get 3 WIS enhancements, FvS 2. 1 point which may or may not be worthwhile, depending on whether it evens the WIS score out.

A decent Cleric can heal a group in normal questing with just aura and bursts generally, but CHA doesn't affect the potency, nor does any turning feats; only the number of turns they get to power the aura and bursts. This is offset by the much lower sp; in my experience between a melee FvS and a casting RS Cleric, they are roughly equal in healing ability. The cleric can do so without sp expense until a boss, but the FvS can keep doing so for just as long despite that (and despite 3 levels lower FvS).

favorite souls however gets about twice the ammount of spell points clerics get. they can dump wisdom, but this will ruin the effectiveness of the fvs spells. so its adviced to take them both.

Wrong. A melee Favored Soul is highly effective without any investment into CHA or WIS, and a casting FvS is highly effective without any CHA investment at all. Divine offensive spells and CC spells are very limited, and they struggle to fit in offense among the defense and healing in most groups. Dumping WIS only ruins a few spells, all of which are often covered by a Wizard or even Sorc more effectively. Blade Barrier is still very potent with an 8 WIS. I know this from hard-won experience. Quite frankly, there is no way I would make a casting Divine at all after my experiences, and for Melee it's difficult to argue against 10DR and stacking resists. And Wings.

both go extremely well with 2 monk splashes, but only the cleric can fit in an 3rd splash of level without losing level 9 spells.

TBH, Cleric does go better there, as they don't give up near as much as a FvS. 10DR, an SLA, and two level 9 spells is a tough pill to swallow, whereas Clerics give up a lackluster capstone and some sp. They lack enough spells to make spell slots and issue in level 8 and 9. They gain evasion, two feats, and a bonus stacking +2 WIS from water stance.

fvs aint useless, just look at them as sorcerers spell points pool entirely dedicated for healing.
while clerics are the wizardlike low spell point toons with healing spell like abilities.

A FvS or Cleric who only heals is a wasted party slot. While divines' spell list is lacking, they are still very potent offensive casters, and strong, resilient, and self sufficient melees. The best FvS I've played with drop mass heals centered on them in between beating on critters. The best Clerics knock out the critters before the others take any damage, or just incapacitate them temporarily at the least.

It's better to look at FvS as Chuck Norris, and Clerics as Mr T.

[wigthemaster]

Now first off let me state that i have leveled both clerics and favored souls to 20, so i have actually played both classes all the way through the game in most of the dungeons.

And i have seen nothing to make favored souls even remotely superior to clerics in any way except a little extra hps/spell points. Maybe someone can correct me on this one...

Favored souls get a few enhancements/feats that will boost their melee ability with a specialized weapon up a little, but nothing that will really make any difference compared to a cleric. a few extra to hit/damage, not much there. They also get a couple free boosts like +10 elemental resist, again, not really a huge benefit when you can easily cast elemental protection spells or use airships.

Clerics get all the spells and don't have to pay to switch them out. Clerics can get that great healing blast/aura for very cheap enhancement costs. Clerics can turn, favored souls can't. Clerics have one stat for their spells (wisdom) where as favored souls are screwed and are broken down into 2 stats (wisdom for dc, charisma for sp's).

I don't see really any benefit for favored souls for their huge cost in favor needed(or having to buy) compared to a good cleric. Maybe someone can fill me in, because the first thing i plan to do with my fvs is tr him into a more useful cleric instead.

So, is playing a fvs worth not having free spells, turning, enhancement healing burst/aura, one stat needed (wisdom), etc...

One could say the same thing about wizards and sorcs. (to some degree) 90% of the people on forums are going to say FVS because built right they can do exactly the same as a cleric with much more flexibility and 100% of that 90% is going to admit that one of the best parts about a FVS over a Cleric are WINGS. (they're just great).

~wig

[Unreliable]

Wings, more sp, dr10, wings, free heal every 6 seconds (hits for 50-250), and I forgot to mention wings.

[Bodic]

that free heal landed on a solar for 599 by me and another fvs landed a 10k+ heal on the same solar

[Anthem]

The most convincing point was made over two and a half years ago, and it's every bit as true today as it was then:

Heal
Cure Moderate Wounds, mass (the most widely used spell for raid healing)
Blade Barrier
Cometfall
Harm
Symbol of Persuasion

Pick 3.

That's a favored soul.

A cleric has all six .. at the same time.

[Vissarion]

Meh, not that difficult a choice.

On a melee FVS? Heal, Blade Barrier, Mass Cure Moderate.

On a caster FVS? Heal, Blade Barrier and either Symbol of Persuasion or Cometfall depending on what content you run most and what your DC is.

Mass Cure Mod can easily be replaced by Mass Cure Serious/Critical. Harm is just meh compared to the other options.

[Hellllboy]

Yet again...another FvS vs. Cleric thread...(sigh)

I have both-I love both. My play style supports FvS-so I play it most.

One is not better than the other-just different.

[Nyvn]

The most convincing point was made over two and a half years ago, and it's every bit as true today as it was then:

Heal
Cure Moderate Wounds, mass (the most widely used spell for raid healing)
Blade Barrier
Cometfall
Harm
Symbol of Persuasion

Pick 3.

That's a favored soul.

A cleric has all six .. at the same time.

I'd say Mass Heal is used more often than Mass Cure Mod, but other than that pretty much.

[Furare]

Go swim in deep lava on a cleric after casting Fire Resistance on yourself. Every time you take damage, subtract 10 from the amount of damage you take. That's the difference inherent resistance makes.

But you always tell me not to do that! :P

As for the comparison, some days I feel like the only reason left to play a cleric is if you don't have FvS unlocked yet. Or you want to play a fleshy melee divine - which I do - because I've yet to see a non-WF melee FvS build that I liked as much as I do my fighter/cleric. But even on that score, I get the impression that I would have to do less justification of my existence as a melee FvS than I do as a melee cleric, so... *shrugs*

Clerics are better healers (in terms of raw numbers, since Empower Healing = +75% effectiveness for 10sp). Clerics are way better vs. undead. That's what the PrE does for you. Everything else about clerics is at best equal to the FvS equivalent. I want to keep playing my cleric. I want to TR her as a fighter-splashed melee build. But with the way things are going, I'm not sure I can really justify doing that.

Right now it does feel a little like "anything you can do I can do better" when it comes to the FvS/cleric comparison - but the advantage is not on the side the OP claims it is.

[Templarion]

Never under estimate the power of the wings!

[Sarisa]

I'd say Mass Heal is used more often than Mass Cure Mod, but other than that pretty much.

Note that Junts's post was over 2 years ago, when Mass Heal did NOT hit an entire raid party. Mass Cure Mod is the most efficient of the cures.

[JasonJi72]

I used to be on the clerics are better bandwagon, but when I got fvs to give it a try, I came to my senses. Now I have a problem with getting a cleric build past 6-8, and my fvs' get to 14 in a weekend.

The Radiant Servant had a huge impact on the game, because it put clerics in the same ballpark as the fvs. Even without a presige, fvs' still hold their own with benefits. Once the favored prestiges get implemented...

There are two things that I truly do not understand regarding a favoured soul...

1. Melee fvs' who say they cannot heal because they are melee speced. OMG! Are you kidding me? What other spells do you have to choose from? You can't fit ONE feat for healing? You don't carry ardor clickies, wands, and scrolls? What else are you going to do with your insane mana pool? (Please don't berate me for using the term mana. Grow up.) Every time I'm in a group and they insist upon a cleric when they have a fvs, or I'm in a raid group and the fvs insists that they cannot heal, because they are melee specced... All I can say is that you guys are not worth be healed, buffed, carried to the shrine, helped in any way, or grouped with ever again.

2. Groups that still post for a 'healer' when they have a fvs. Enough with the insults. If you cannot heal yourself, you are gimp. If a fvs cannot heal a party, the party and the fvs are gimp. If a cleric cannot heal a party, the party is gimp (a good fvs can still heal a gimp party).

I still like clerics, but it comes down to the rule of 3:

1. Melee - FVS hands down. More sp for healing. DR. Wings. Resist. Melee. Wings. Saves. Saves. Saves. Saves. Saves!

2. Caster - FVS hands down. They have all the above, plus equal spell dc, and a huge spell point advantage. It all comes down to spell points. Mana! Mana! Mana!... that about sums it up.

3. Melee / Caster this one is closer, but with these builds it usually comes down to saves, and a fvs wins... hands down.

4. Healbot - Ok, cleric wins, but I will never... EVER...EVER... play one again, unless it's a Bard...

Now enter the FVS prestiges... GAME OVER!

There is a reason why the FVS class costs so much.

The next person who asks me if a fvs can heal, I'm going to slap you through your viewscreen, along with the gimp fvs you played with to make you ask that question!

Love ya! Mean it!

Good Times!

EDIT: IMHO The only fvs builds who can justify not being able to heal as well are the caster builds. To them I say "OK, bring it, let's see what you got!" The only thing about those guys are that the ones that could 'bring it' could also heal... very well.