are FVS worthless? it seems so to me

[quitzquizar]

Now first off let me state that i have leveled both clerics and favored souls to 20, so i have actually played both classes all the way through the game in most of the dungeons.

And i have seen nothing to make favored souls even remotely superior to clerics in any way except a little extra hps/spell points. Maybe someone can correct me on this one...

Favored souls get a few enhancements/feats that will boost their melee ability with a specialized weapon up a little, but nothing that will really make any difference compared to a cleric. a few extra to hit/damage, not much there. They also get a couple free boosts like +10 elemental resist, again, not really a huge benefit when you can easily cast elemental protection spells or use airships.

Clerics get all the spells and don't have to pay to switch them out. Clerics can get that great healing blast/aura for very cheap enhancement costs. Clerics can turn, favored souls can't. Clerics have one stat for their spells (wisdom) where as favored souls are screwed and are broken down into 2 stats (wisdom for dc, charisma for sp's).

I don't see really any benefit for favored souls for their huge cost in favor needed(or having to buy) compared to a good cleric. Maybe someone can fill me in, because the first thing i plan to do with my fvs is tr him into a more useful cleric instead.

So, is playing a fvs worth not having free spells, turning, enhancement healing burst/aura, one stat needed (wisdom), etc...

[corpman]

I guess i would say that it must be a personal preference thing. i made a wf fvs melee capable and love him, also have 2 capped clerics one an offensive caster and one a melee cleric and like both of them. none is better than the other they are all just different and better at certain things.

[badbob117]

Fvs get wings, DR10 and have more spell points. These three things make the class amazing for melee builds and caster builds. The fact that different races get a different capstone is nice to. The dr really makes this class a bit more friendly for survivability. A wf fvs can achieve some of the best dr in game. The wings are totally addictive. Once you learn how to fly at level 17 you never want to use your feet again.

Fvs are also getting some nice enhancements with a new prestige in the next update.

[bryanmeerkat]

As stated more Spellpoints is useful and somewhat offsets the radiant bursts . They both have their goodpoints , but soon its all going to change and clerics will have nothing on the damage dealing capabilities of fvs .

Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Prereqs: Level 6 Favored Soul, Favored Soul Smiting II, Favored Soul Energy of the Scion II, and any one of the following: Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Heighten Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration, or Spell Focus: Evocation
Cost: 4 AP
Benefit: Your faith is unwavering and your vengeance is swift. Enemies that strike you have a chance of suffering divine condemnation rendering them vulnerable to divine attacks, and you project a 15 meter Aura of Menace, decreasing the saving throws, attack, and armor class of nearby enemies by 2. You deal 20% additional damage with spells that deal physical or untyped damage, and can name an ally your 'Champion', transferring your shield of condemnation to them and damaging opponents that strike them in melee.
Shield of Condemnation
Benefit: Enemies that strike you have a chance of suffering divine condemnation, increasing their vulnerability to light and alignment-based damage by 20%, and decreasing their fortification by 10%. This debuff stacks up to 5 times, and is dispelled by Bless effects.
Name Champion
Benefit: You name an ally your Champion, who gains benefits from some of your Angel of Vengeance abilities. You can only have one Champion at a time, and it must be another player or a hireling in your party, or a monster which you have personally summoned.
Crown of Retribution
Benefit: You transfer your Shield of Condemnation to your Champion as long as they remain within your Aura of Menace. Enemies that strike your Champion while this is active also take 1d8+1 points of light damage from your divine wrath.
Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance II
Prereqs: Level 12 Favored Soul, Favored Soul Smiting III, Favored Soul Energy of the Scion III, Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I, and any of: Silver Flame Exorcism, Unyielding Sovereignty, Undying Call, Bladesworn Transformation, or Vulkoor’s Avatar
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Your wrath against those who stand against you continues to grow. Your Aura of Menace now lowers Spell Resistance by 2. You now deal 30% additional damage with spells that deal fire, physical, or untyped damage. You can summon a small lantern archon that hovers over your shoulder, attacking foes within your Aura of Menace with beams of light.
Summon Archon
Benefit: A small lantern archon hovers over your shoulder and attacks nearby enemies. This archon is indestructible, deals 1 to 3 + caster level light damage every 2 seconds, and uses your light amplification effects for its light beam attacks. The archon will only attack enemies that have already been damaged, and will not attack fascinated or mesmerized foes, and always attacks the enemy with the fewest hit points in range. All threat generated by the archon is applied to you. (Cost: 20 sp, Duration: 300 seconds)

[Vissarion]

Wings, DR, wings, inherent resists, wings, Angel of Vengeance.

Did I mention wings?

Seriously, WF FVS is pretty much the gold standard of un-freaking-killable.

Honestly, I have never seen someone suggest that FVSes are useless, so I'm kinda baffled as to how to respond.

[Razvan]

Honestly, I have never seen someone suggest that FVSes are useless, so I'm kinda baffled as to how to respond.

Simple...you put them in the "they don't know what they are talking about" category, ignore them, and go back to playing the best class in the game at the moment...

[Matuse]

And i have seen nothing to make favored souls even remotely superior to clerics in any way except a little extra hps/spell points. Maybe someone can correct me on this one...

Sure thing.

Favored souls get a few enhancements/feats that will boost their melee ability with a specialized weapon up a little, but nothing that will really make any difference compared to a cleric.

It's +1 to hit and +4 damage. To get the equivalent on a cleric involves pumping charisma (there goes your single attribute) and a larger investment in AP. You also need to get martial weapon proficiency somehow, or deal with a severely inferior weapon compared to the FvS.

They also get a couple free boosts like +10 elemental resist, again, not really a huge benefit when you can easily cast elemental protection spells or use airships.

You're aware that FvS resist boosts fully stack with that other stuff, right?

Clerics get all the spells and don't have to pay to switch them out.

Nearly all divine spells are complete garbage. Not being able to use them is not a drawback. There are only 2-3 levels (6, 8, maybe 9) where spell choice is at all difficult. Outside of those levels (for me only 2, I had no conflict in choosing L9s), I have at least one spell which I either never use or hardly ever use. Why do I have spells that I don't use? Because there isn't anything better to put in their place.

Money is beyond trivial to obtain, particularly for a caster who can waltz through the Vale and slaughter named for chest loot.

Clerics can get that great healing blast/aura for very cheap enhancement costs.

Whoopty-do. FvS get a nice free single target heal for very cheap enhancement costs.

Clerics can turn, favored souls can't.

And when exactly was the last time you met a cleric who used Turns to Turn something, and not as a battery for Radiant Servant bursts?

Clerics have one stat for their spells (wisdom) where as favored souls are screwed and are broken down into 2 stats (wisdom for dc, charisma for sp's).

My FvS has a base charisma of 11. And over 2800 SP.

The dual-stat requirement is a myth. Clerics actually have a much greater need for cha, especially if they plan on meleeing.

So, is playing a fvs worth not having free spells, turning, enhancement healing burst/aura, one stat needed (wisdom), etc...

FvS get wings, and the immense power and flexibility that wings provide cannot be overstated.

The spellpoint bonus is not a small one. By burning 2 feats on mental toughness, clerics are still WAY behind.

FvS also get substantially more HP through class toughness enhancements.

10 points of unbreakable DR means taking a fraction of the damage from things like orthon maggot bolts and other plinky type damage that wears clerics down like crazy (forcing them to use up those limited spellpoints and RS bursts that much faster). My FvS can solo Sins of Attrition on Hard while collecting all the bonus chests and without Shrining (and without Conc-Opp/Torc, or any other form of SP recovery)...can your cleric?

[DaSawks]

I have a Cap'd pure Drow Cleric and I love him. I have a level 6 WF FS and he is hands down better. I played the Cleric first and learned how to play a Divine caster. I would recommend test driving a cleric first. Easyer to trade spells. More spells. More forgiving stat alotments. Free to play.

Now that I know what to am doing with the Divine class I would recommend a FS over a Cleric. Inherent Resist, Wings, Beloved of Greatswords, More SP = More spells cast per rest, DR @ 20.

Turn Undead is cool for a while. When was the last time you got excited to turn a few skeletons? Delera's? Orchard? yay

[Pape_27]

no, FvS are not worthless compared to clerics. They are different. Thats all.

There are a lot of positives for both classes, as have been stated in this thread.

I think the main difference between the two classes is one of flavor. How am I going to get from point A to point B with what I have to work with. Is the quest heavy with the undead? Hands down i prefer the cleric class (Desecrated Temple of Vol? Solo elite? LOL, I laugh at thee - loved burst nuking in the orchard!) Is the quest dependant on mobility and surviveability (ie A New Invasion-like quest)? Then I tend to favor the FvS class. The wings can really get you out of a jam and the extra mana really comes into play in the boss battle.

So, to me at any rate, neither class is "better" than the other. Each are remarkable classes in their own right.


_

[Original]

FvS are not useless... but Cleric will always win overall, way to let the cat out of the bag.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think Fvs are far better from a melee, save and Sp point or view. And a few cool abilities.

Radiant Servant made Clerics much better healers.

Fvs suffer from having two casting stats.

And really suffer from limited spell selection. Many peopl emay try to argue this one and tell you that there are few useful spells in DDO, but I totally disagree. I find the limited spell selection to be a big handicap of FVSs.

But the saves are nice....very nice. The Sp is nice. And the new PREs have promise.

I'm actually torn between which I prefer right now.

[Pape_27]

Radiant Servant made Clerics much better healers.

Better healers? thats a too narrow of a view point. It made clerics that much better overall, healing wise and with the amount of sp needed to heal adequately, it lets the divine offensive casters take a more pro-active role in parties.

Radiant servant so is much more than a healing aura. The burst is, situationally, an extremely powerful weapon. Crit bursts can one shot most of the undead in the game.



_

[mute_mayhem]

Two casting stats? You're kidding right? My caster FvS (Banarda) has a base 10 charisma and over 3000 spell points...I could take it down to 8 and still be able to cast all my spells/have plenty of spell points.

But really, the biggest difference(s) between cleric and FvS, IMO is mobility and survivability. You can't beat the wings for getting around and into or out of dangerous situations

[Missing_Minds]

So, is playing a fvs worth not having free spells, turning, enhancement healing burst/aura, one stat needed (wisdom), etc...

Cleric vs FvS. And lets ignore the enhancment PrE because lets face it. Unfair advantage is not good for a comparison.

SP? FvS.
Stats needed? Cleric.
Mobility? FvS (jump as a skill, let alone free wings/FF)

Armor Usage
Cleric: Heavy
FvS: Medium, but DR 10/ _____ at high levels.
Winner: my opinion, FvS.

Special Ability.
Cleric: Turn undead.
FvS: Stackable Energy resistance.
Winner: Player dependent.

Capstone
FvS :religion based spells.
Cleric: 1 5 min stop gap to stave off death.
Winner: Player dependent.

Spells
healing: equal until capstone of Host FvS pulling it ahead.
light : equal until capstone of Silver Flame FvS pulling it ahead.
Untyped Damage : I'll go cleric on this one due to single stat needed.
Crowd Control: I'll go cleric on this one due to single stat needed.
Selection and number of spells: Cleric hands down.

If the questing is end game, not epic, to me they are very much equal. Epic, I'd say cleric for the higher DCs.

Now add in the only divine PrE is for clerics, and it becomes a no brainer clerics are where it is at. Revist your question when the rest of the PrEs are done and see if you still feel the same.

[Bodic]

Wings
DR
Resist
HP
SP
AoV
Saves
Melee
Free SL or CLW

Yeah FvS who would want any of those benefits.

to note the Helf Pally dilly 18/2 favonk has the best possible saves with a starting Cha of 14 and no adds will have more SP/HP Than a 20 cleric sure only Mass heal but it would be a twf melee toon that will hit harder.

[leadhead]

Man you guys are makin me want to roll a FVS now!

[Iwinbyrollup]

If you choose to dismiss everything the Favored Soul has as worthless, then yes, the Favored Soul is worthless. That doesn't necessarily make it so.

And i have seen nothing to make favored souls even remotely superior to clerics in any way except a little extra hps/spell points. Maybe someone can correct me on this one...

The HP is minor, though nice--up to 40 more possible on a Favored Soul. The SP ends up being significant; it's not hard to have a difference of 700-800 SP or greater between the two. If you're an offensive divine caster, that is a lot of power you're losing. If you're willing to chug pots it obviously doesn't matter, but not everyone is willing or able to do that.

Favored souls get a few enhancements/feats that will boost their melee ability with a specialized weapon up a little, but nothing that will really make any difference compared to a cleric. a few extra to hit/damage, not much there. They also get a couple free boosts like +10 elemental resist, again, not really a huge benefit when you can easily cast elemental protection spells or use airships.

Actually, cleric gets more in terms of weapon damage from Divine Might--which requires a much larger investment in Charisma than Favored Souls need.

It also sounds like you don't realize that these are STACKING bonuses to resistance. Go swim in deep lava on a cleric after casting Fire Resistance on yourself. Every time you take damage, subtract 10 from the amount of damage you take. That's the difference inherent resistance makes. Now, imagine you're in, say, the fire room of Stealer of Souls, or in melee range of Harry, or any one of the very many places in the game where you're very regularly getting hit by fire damage. It is a very big difference to have 10 points subtracted off of EVERY single fire attack. And that's just fire; you get two more. Sure, you can cast Protection from the Elements, but in endgame content Elemental Protection lasts seconds when under attack. Heck, go into, say, Epic VON5 on a 20 cleric. Cast Electric Resist and Protection from Energy: Electric on yourself, and open the door to your left and step inside. Chances are, the first electric attack will not only deplete all 120 points of electric protection, but it will also damage you through the 30 points of Electric Resistance. If it doesn't, the second one will, and both will probably come within seconds of the enemies in that room noticing you. Protection from Energy gets depleted too quickly to be a reliable source when under consistent attack. It's great for traps though.

Likewise, go into a quest without dungeon scaling. Not sure, but I've heard that there's no dungeon scaling on elite quests. Say, go into Elite Sins of Attrition on a 20 cleric. Now, every time you get hit, look at the damage. Subtract 10 from that number. That's the difference that having 10 DR makes. Now imagine situations where you get enemies that spam a large number of attacks to do damage. Think of Orthons with their ranged damage, for example. Or Lailat, who will knock you down (i.e., you won't be able to heal yourself for a moment) and then hit you six times. That DR makes a huge difference.

Clerics get all the spells and don't have to pay to switch them out. Clerics can get that great healing blast/aura for very cheap enhancement costs. Clerics can turn, favored souls can't. Clerics have one stat for their spells (wisdom) where as favored souls are screwed and are broken down into 2 stats (wisdom for dc, charisma for sp's).

Clerics do much better against undead than Favored Souls. Both are still competent at dealing with undead, but the Radiant Burst is undead slaughter in a regenerating clicky.

Clerics have an advantage in more spell slots. The spell switching thing is not all too big of a deal in most cases. I find on my offensive caster cleric that I almost never need to switch spells, with one exception: switching in Mass Bull's/Bear's for Hound. But having MORE spell slots definitely makes a difference.

Even with that advantage though, you mostly don't need all those spell slots. My cleric has a lot of useless spells prepared just because there was nothing better. The biggest difficult choices come with level 6 spells, and that's one place where clerics beat out offensive caster Favored Souls (there are some seriously tough decisions to make at level 6 when you only have three spells). Not really much an issue for melee Favored Souls though, since in most cases they won't be casting offensive spells to start with, short of BB. But yeah, still definitely an advantage for clerics here.

You're wrong about the ability point difficulties. Without considering feats, enhancements, or equipment, a very gimp 20 Favored Soul with 6 Charisma has 3 more SP than a very not gimp 20 Cleric with 46 Wisdom. All SP feats (Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness) affect the two equally; all SP enhancements (Energy lines) and equipment (Archmagi, Elemental Spell Power) give more SP to the Favored Soul than the Cleric--no matter how you slice it, the Favored Soul comes out ahead in terms of SP short of very screwed up builds (not including multiclasses in this discussion). All a Favored Soul needs in Charisma is 19, so they can cast level 9 spells. If they have 19 Charisma, they're going to have more SP than an equally geared Cleric. Getting 19 Charisma is trivially easy on a Favored Soul; start with 14 Charisma and all you need is an item, although you'll probably want the capstone anyway and that'll get you to 22. Throw in a +2 tome and you're up to 24, 5 more than needed. Start with 9 Charisma? +2 tome, +2 capstone, +6 item. Heck, you could start with 6 if you were willing to get all three FvS Charisma enhancements, or even get +3 exceptional Charisma. Neither is a good idea, but a small investment into Charisma will still get you all the Charisma you need.

Likewise, Clerics benefit significantly from having Charisma, whether casting- or melee-oriented. Casters get more turns, which means more RS usage, and melee get more turns, which means, well, more RS usage and more levels of Divine Might.

And melee FvS have much easier ability point distribution than melee clerics, as melee FvS can completely dump Wisdom and start with fairly low Charisma and still have more much SP than a high-Wisdom cleric.

I've considered both a Cleric and a Favored Soul for my divine caster's final life, and really, the build point distribution for Charisma and Wisdom is exactly the same, maybe two points LESS Charisma for the Favored Soul--and both end up with the same Charisma, since Favored Souls have the capstone working for them. Clerics end up a point ahead in Wisdom thanks to three Wisdom enhancements, if you can afford the 6 AP for the third and if that extra point actually gives you a higher modifier.

Oh, and the upcoming FvS PrE REALLY benefits FvS for offensive casters.

[thewalex]

I would recommend test driving a cleric first. Easier to trade spells. More spells. More forgiving stat allotments. Free to play.

I agree with this. My first toon was a cleric, and it allowed me to get a feel for which spells were the most useful, and which could be carried as scrolls or ultimately disregarded. I also realized my misappropriation of initial stat points. My human evoker fvs, however has since become my favorite character, and has a bit more survivability due to DR and wings. Both are good and fun, both have very similar playstiles (Offensive casting and some melee for quests and epics and healing for raids). I plan to roll a WF FvS to try that out, as I hear it's very different from a casting/healbot cleric.

[hu-flung-pu]

I plan to roll a WF FvS to try that out, as I hear it's very different from a casting/healbot cleric.

My favorite solo character. Even in groups he's a champ doing second tier DPS and baby sitting with quickened heals. The new PrE just amps his damage even more. There's not really any comparisons to a cleric. A cleric is the defacto healer in groups which let's me focus on fighting.

The only thing he's missing is any form of crowd control. That's easily remedied with a bard hireling.

[transtemporal]

Fvs get wings, DR10 and have more spell points.

Thats pretty much it, and a few more hp.

I kinda struggle to see the usefulness of FvS too OP. Maybe U9 will change that.