Solar Phoenix, Revised for Update 9

[SolarDawning]

With a lot of healamp, and monk speed weapon use, u could farm two nice Dream Edges and unlock them for vampirism.

+5 maiming / bodyfeeder / aligned / lesser vampirism and maybe Vorpal / Vicious or GEOB with x3 crit kamas seem like the way to go.

U can even save 2 feats then, when not taking Whirling Steel.

Kamas do not attack any faster than longswords. All weapon types except Unarmed attack at the exact same rate. Unarmed is approximately 12% faster.

Greensteel longswords at 1d10 19-20x2 significantly beat Dream Edge kamas of 1d6 20x3, (Not even considering the additional offensive properties on the Greensteels. Even the pos/pos/pos offhand for 30% healing amp isn't bad, as it'll be Holy/Good Burst) particularly as there will be no autocrit state on helpless mobs as of Update 9.

The original healing amp build I made circa Update 4 used kamas, this was before Whirling Steel Strike was added.

Thanks for the input, though!

[Emizand]

Sorry not trying to derail thread, but i just cant figure out healing amp. You say this build gives approx 411%.

What would :-

20% - Half-Elf Racial Enhancements
20% - Half-Elf Monk Dilettante Enhancements
10% - Dragontouched Eldritch Rune
20% - Dragontouched Tempest Rune
30% - Greensteel Triple Positive Longsword -or- Greensteel Concordant Opposition Longsword

Equal?

[SolarDawning]

Sorry not trying to derail thread, but i just cant figure out healing amp. You say this build gives approx 411%.

What would :-

20% - Half-Elf Racial Enhancements
20% - Half-Elf Monk Dilettante Enhancements
10% - Dragontouched Eldritch Rune
20% - Dragontouched Tempest Rune
30% - Greensteel Triple Positive Longsword -or- Greensteel Concordant Opposition Longsword

Equal?

Base 1. (100% = normal healing amount.)
20% - Half-Elf Racial Enhancements Base 1 multiplied by 1.2 = 1.2 (120%)
20% - Half-Elf Monk Dilettante Enhancements Previous total 1.2 multiplied by 1.2 = 1.44 (144%)
10% - Dragontouched Eldritch Rune Previous total 1.44 multiplied by 1.1 = 1.584 (158%)
20% - Dragontouched Tempest Rune Previous total 1.584 multiplied by 1.2 = 1.9008 (190%)
30% - Greensteel Weapon Previous total 1.9008 multiplied by 1.3 = 2.47104 (247%)

Approximately 247% of the normal result from incoming healing.

Note, I say approximately because all of my calculations have always turned up to be very slightly below the actual observed amount in game. It appears that the game actually rounds decimals up at a specific point, producing slightly higher total results than otherwise would be expected. It's mostly a negligible difference, though.

[Emizand]

Thank you so much. I was way off. I had 20% at 1.32. I thought you would apply 10% first, then the 20%.

So bottom line any HE with a 13 wis taking monk dil can achieve nigh on 250% healing amp.

Thanks again.

[Kam-Ekaze]

Base 1. (100% = normal healing amount.)
20% - Half-Elf Racial Enhancements Base 1 multiplied by 1.2 = 1.2 (120%)
20% - Half-Elf Monk Dilettante Enhancements Previous total 1.2 multiplied by 1.2 = 1.44 (144%)
10% - Dragontouched Eldritch Rune Previous total 1.44 multiplied by 1.1 = 1.584 (158%)
20% - Dragontouched Tempest Rune Previous total 1.584 multiplied by 1.2 = 1.9008 (190%)
30% - Greensteel Weapon Previous total 1.9008 multiplied by 1.3 = 2.47104 (247%)

Approximately 247% of the normal result from incoming healing.

Note, I say approximately because all of my calculations have always turned up to be very slightly below the actual observed amount in game. It appears that the game actually rounds decimals up at a specific point, producing slightly higher total results than otherwise would be expected. It's mostly a negligible difference, though.

Sorry if it's there Solar, but I don't see the paladin HotD III healing amp listed on those.

I'll be interested to hear how you go with this build, I was going to TR my 15/3/2 solaresque toon anyway, but looks like U9 gave me a really good excuse to do it. With 2 paladin past lives I might roll up a virtuoso kensai or something fun instead

[SolarDawning]

Sorry if it's there Solar, but I don't see the paladin HotD III healing amp listed on those.

I'll be interested to hear how you go with this build, I was going to TR my 15/3/2 solaresque toon anyway, but looks like U9 gave me a really good excuse to do it. With 2 paladin past lives I might roll up a virtuoso kensai or something fun instead

The bit you quoted is an unrelated calculation- it's not my build, it's to answer the question of the poster above that one. The one for the build I posted is in the first post in this thread, and is 411% total.

[N-0cturn]

I think a human 15/3/2 split is superior to this build.

There is no DPS increase from pala 15 to pala 18 exept for prestige classes and HotD only gives vorpal on undead, which isnt that bad, but not good either.
you give Up fighter/rogue haste boost which is a decrease in DPS.
you give Up 2 feats from fighter + 1 point str or rogue skills (UMD!) and sneak attack
you give Up monk light finisher, which includes monk buffs and fist of light.

you need to start with wis 12/13 to get access to the Dilettante Feat

you gain 37 % healing AMP (374% compared to 411%)
you gain 2-10 HP, and +1 attack compared with a rogue split

...

I will definitely stay 15/3/2 on my char
The only good reason for 18/2 i can see is that you can swap enchantments to KotC if you like to.

[Doop]

How would I adjust this build to fit a 34pt char?

[dogpig11]

i must say, for update 9, the solar phoenix build should be something like

human 12 monk/6pally/2 rogue, fighter, or ranger (personally prefer 2 ranger)

comparing with half elf 18pally/2monk...

Almost the same healing amp, 404% vs 411%
You get 2-4 more feats (1 extra feat for human, 1 for monk 6, plus 1 for going ranger, 2 for going fighter)
You get tier 3 monk stances
You can get shintao II with the extra feats, (+4 intimi)
You trade your strong but limited pally smite for unlimited mediocre monk smite, plus a weak pally (exalted I) smite
You can use stunning fist with shintao. Remember stunning fist is using character level instead of monk level for DC calculation in update 9
Your healing ki is still very respectable. Instead of healing ~220 per heal, you get ~140 (from 40% loss of being 12 monk levels and lost last 2 tier of pally devotion enhancement, which I don't take for the AP cost anyway). If you really want pally devotion III, you can do 12/7/1
Pally's LoH still heals you for about ~450, though you may get 1 less LoH but gain 2 AP
You get abundant step... and as for my ranger splash, sprint boost
(for ranger splash..) you can take zen archery and favored enemy...
you still have free ghost touch for pally 6 HotD
you can get divine might I

You also lose out on...
Divine might III/IV
Exalted smite III/IV
vorpal effect on undead for HotD III
immunity to energy drain

The biggest lose out is immunity to energy drain from pally 12. But I think that trade off is worth it.

[Chette]

I always thought this was a fun sort of build, and did something similar when I went through the Paladin life of my completionist (mostly because I hate Paladin's and wanted to play it as something very non-Palidiny) but the main problem I see with it is relying on the triple positive longsword, and longswords in general. The DPS is just so poor, and the feats required to use them leave this build without many options.

With epic gloves of the claw a pure human monk can reach nearly the same healing amp (about 360% I think) and is just so much more flexible.

[Valindria]

I still think the 15/3/2 looks like the winner. The healing from FoL is still viable with high healing amp. The healing ki is still a free heal and will most likely be a "I am not full and have some ki to waste" kind of use. Basically it will still be the combo of all the things that will make self healing easy. FoL, heal Ki, Regen item (8 hp every 15 seconds), LoH, Cure spell, and pots. My 15/3/2 has quicken and empower heal to help in fighting situations.

I do think the 18/2 is viable so I am not saying it is bad.

I guess if I were to do 18/2 Paladin/monk, knowing I would be giving up FoL I would do it differently. I think I would probably go Human and take EWP Kopesh with my extra feat. Then in group situations play as a TWF Kopesh paladin. You lose the fire stance, ele strikes (who cares), and 25% healing amp from bracers. Another idea would be HElf with Rogue for extra damage but losing 20% healing amp.

But at that point I guess I would re-eval my build and probably spec it as 18/2 KotC with some healing amp due to gear.

[Djeserit]

I also used a Phoenix-type, 17P/3M, for my Paladin life. I did the entire life, 4.3 million xp, solo. Never joined a group for the entire life. I just wanted to do something different.

I found that in a lot of fights, healing curse just wasn't quite enough, producing 6 HP per hit. This change would make a significant impact.

I added quicken spell as a feat and found that it was like having unlimited LoH.

BtW: clerics love this build. They will line up on the ship or in town just to heal you. Annoying.


...

[Bluenoser]

<Puts on black armband for hands-down the favourite toon I've played in DDO, and the one I've invested much time, love, and $ (real and imaginary) into.> Argh.

I've been through the U9 notes coming out of Lam a bunch of times, but somehow missed this (for me) build-breaking change. Because I was limited to 28-pt builds, I went with a Drow longsword TWF, who's currently sitting at 3 monk/13 pally/1 fighter, en route to 3/15/2 at lvl 20. The Drow significantly gimped my healing amp compared to a true Solar Phoenix, but it's still been enough to be an incredibly self-sufficient and fun toon. Well, it was, but clearly won't be now. Double argh.

Kudos to you, Solar, for trying to think through how to respond - I really have no idea what to do. The 'free' self-healing aspect of the original concept was it's greatest strength and appeal for me. Much as I love my pallies, I tend to agree with the poster who said that if you want an evasion DPSer with outstanding HA - which is ultimately what the 18Pal/2Monk is - then just build a 20 Human Monk and max all the healing amps (and for more more DPS go Dark with Ninja Spy II for the SA damage and ToD and situationally use the shortswords, which have the same crit profile as LS but can have puncturing; or, go light and retain the self-healing aspects of the original build).

That said, the healing curse never worked the way the forum discussions suggested it should. It's a base of 1 hp/hit, and I have the following healing amps:
Monk 1 = .1
Bracers in sun stance = .25
HOTDII = .20 (or .21 according to some who believe HOTDI and II multiply with each other)
DevIV = .4
House J ship buff = .1

If it's an additive relationship between the buffs, then it should be: 1 x [1+(.1 + .25 + .2 + .4 + .1, or 1.05)] = 2.05
If it's multiplicative, as OP indicates in this thread, then it should be: 1 x 1.1 x 1.25 x 1.2 x 1.4 x 1.1 = 2.54

So, either way, the healing shield should be yielding at least 2 hp/hit. But I still get only 1 about 1/3 of the time, but 3 the rest of the time. Moreover, I have been getting these results *since lvl 10*. HOTDII and Dev III and IV made NO difference to my shield. Sup Ardor pots do not affect my shield healing at all, only the finisher (I did notice the Devotion tiers affected the finisher).

On the finisher, I've gotten a low of 45 for myself up to 92 (without Ardor pots), and average in the low 70s (I know, that's lame compared to most doing variants of this build). But that doesn't square either: if the finisher does (current rules) 1d4 + 1d4 for every two character levels, then at 17th level = 9d4, or 9-36 x healing amp (2.05 or 2.54). That should mean I'd only get 18-72 (or 23-92 if multiplicative), and yet I seem to be doing better than that.

Apologies if previous Solar Phoenix threads have already discussed this issue, or how amps for the shield and finisher differ - I'd appreciate a link if so.

[SolarDawning]

Stuff

If you were seeing 1's and 3's from your Healing Curse, instead of the normal 1 and 2's, that means you had between 150 and 199% healing amplification, which would not affect the normal rolls of 1, but would increase the 2's to 3.

[N-0cturn]

<Puts on black armband for hands-down the favourite toon I've played in DDO, and the one I've invested much time, love, and $ (real and imaginary) into.> Argh.

I've been through the U9 notes coming out of Lam a bunch of times, but somehow missed this (for me) build-breaking change. Because I was limited to 28-pt builds, I went with a Drow longsword TWF, who's currently sitting at 3 monk/13 pally/1 fighter, en route to 3/15/2 at lvl 20. The Drow significantly gimped my healing amp compared to a true Solar Phoenix, but it's still been enough to be an incredibly self-sufficient and fun toon. Well, it was, but clearly won't be now. Double argh.

Kudos to you, Solar, for trying to think through how to respond - I really have no idea what to do. The 'free' self-healing aspect of the original concept was it's greatest strength and appeal for me. Much as I love my pallies, I tend to agree with the poster who said that if you want an evasion DPSer with outstanding HA - which is ultimately what the 18Pal/2Monk is - then just build a 20 Human Monk and max all the healing amps (and for more more DPS go Dark with Ninja Spy II for the SA damage and ToD and situationally use the shortswords, which have the same crit profile as LS but can have puncturing; or, go light and retain the self-healing aspects of the original build).

That said, the healing curse never worked the way the forum discussions suggested it should. It's a base of 1 hp/hit, and I have the following healing amps:
Monk 1 = .1
Bracers in sun stance = .25
HOTDII = .20 (or .21 according to some who believe HOTDI and II multiply with each other)
DevIV = .4
House J ship buff = .1

If it's an additive relationship between the buffs, then it should be: 1 x [1+(.1 + .25 + .2 + .4 + .1, or 1.05)] = 2.05
If it's multiplicative, as OP indicates in this thread, then it should be: 1 x 1.1 x 1.25 x 1.2 x 1.4 x 1.1 = 2.54

So, either way, the healing shield should be yielding at least 2 hp/hit. But I still get only 1 about 1/3 of the time, but 3 the rest of the time. Moreover, I have been getting these results *since lvl 10*. HOTDII and Dev III and IV made NO difference to my shield. Sup Ardor pots do not affect my shield healing at all, only the finisher (I did notice the Devotion tiers affected the finisher).

On the finisher, I've gotten a low of 45 for myself up to 92 (without Ardor pots), and average in the low 70s (I know, that's lame compared to most doing variants of this build). But that doesn't square either: if the finisher does (current rules) 1d4 + 1d4 for every two character levels, then at 17th level = 9d4, or 9-36 x healing amp (2.05 or 2.54). That should mean I'd only get 18-72 (or 23-92 if multiplicative), and yet I seem to be doing better than that.

Apologies if previous Solar Phoenix threads have already discussed this issue, or how amps for the shield and finisher differ - I'd appreciate a link if so.

You still have cure serious wounds to heal. With a nice SP item this still grants you a nice but not unlimited source of healing. And with a Concordant opposition item the fun really starts .
Although you may want to grap Quicken .

[Bluenoser]

If you were seeing 1's and 3's from your Healing Curse, instead of the normal 1 and 2's, that means you had between 150 and 199% healing amplification, which would not affect the normal rolls of 1, but would increase the 2's to 3.

OK, but my point is that I shouldn't ever be getting below 200% (x2.05 or x2.54) with the amps, so a roll of 1 should yield a 2. I'm still getting 1s about 1/3 of the time. (and in any case, they really don't round up 1.95? Nasty!)

[SolarDawning]

OK, but my point is that I shouldn't ever be getting below 200% (x2.05 or x2.54) with the amps, so a roll of 1 should yield a 2. I'm still getting 1s about 1/3 of the time. (and in any case, they really don't round up 1.95? Nasty!)

Your math is very wrong. If you see 1's and 3's, it's because your healing amp is between 150% and 199% total.

Why are you counting devotion as healing amplification? It's not. It's an increase to the amount of a healing spell. Healing amplification is then applied to the amount the spell would heal for.

For one thing, Healing Curse is not affected by modifications to healing spells, such as Devotion. Healing Ki, the light/light/light finisher is, but Healing Curse is not.

From the sources in your above post, including the ship buff, I show your healing amplification as 183%.
This seems to be working exactly as it should.

[Bluenoser]

You still have cure serious wounds to heal. With a nice SP item this still grants you a nice but not unlimited source of healing. And with a Concordant opposition item the fun really starts .
Although you may want to grap Quicken .

Good point, thanks, although I won't have CSW until level 18 on this build, and it's an SP pig (tho getting better with U9?), and it means not carrying Zeal until level 19 . As well, I need to use the SP primarily for Pally buffs, which (even with Extend) only last 3-4 minutes. So, I could self-heal a *little bit*, and nowhere near as effectively as I do now. (In water stance wearing my Magi outfit, which I use at start of maps for initial buffs and resistances before changing into Garments of Equilibrium and entering fire stance, I have ~420 sp). Sadly, all of this is happening just as I'm ready to start doing Shroud for GS crafting for the first time. Will really have to evaluate whether to bother with this toon, as she may be Orthon-fodder in there post-update. (Apparently, I didn't understand the implication of Turbine selling +5 tomes before an update: "We will be ruining your characters shortly: buy these so you can do something completely different but that We approve of.")

[Bluenoser]

Your math is very wrong. If you see 1's and 3's, it's because your healing amp is between 150% and 199% total.

For one thing, Healing Curse is not affected by modifications to healing spells, such as Devotion. Healing Ki, the light/light/light finisher is, but Healing Curse is not.

Ah-ha! Thank-you, that's what I asked about in the last part of my first post.

[whomhead]

If you're dropping the third level of monk out of the build, then why not go with a 12 paladin, 6 fighter, 2 monk level split?

You still get all the benefits to 12 paladin, plus extra feats and evasion from 2 monk, and then a nice boost to damage and to-hit from Kensei 1 and weapon focus/specialization from the fighter levels.

Even makes getting WSS easy as pie from all the extra fighter feats, and lets you take Quicken + Maximize for some very potent self-healing with cure spells.

You would, of course, lose a bit of healing amp, but would gain quite a bit for it, in my opinion.