So What about Monks and Epic post U9?

[AeliusMaximus]

Actually it's the opposite, no longer is the crit multiplier the only important thing on your weapon in epics. Actually picks lose, fists win. Your damage relative to crit dependant weapons went up a whole bunch.

Two problems with with the monk dps went UP logic ...

1) You're assuming monks and non-monks are attacking "helpless" mobs at the same rate. FALSE. Monks (especially the light variety) are constantly attacking stunned mobs whilst other melee do so only occassionaly ... this holds true even for "tactics" spec'd melee. Epics with a CC caster stategy might make it more even.

2) However, you're also looking at the changes from only the "epic" perspective. There are 19 other levels that these changes impact ... monks are LOSING dps relative to other melee. Going from "near constant" 200% damage to 150% is a big nerf. No other melee class is taking that kind of a hit. And before you say all melee are getting the same nerf ... SEE #1.

[Malky]

Monks with grandmaster earth stance usually go with Earth IV / Earth III / Fist of Iron / Earth finisher when hitting a stunned mob that have enough hp to finish that sequence (read: epic mostly). So over 4 attacks they are getting 2+2+3+4 hit-worth of damage, averaging 2.75 hit-worth per attack. After u9 with our crappy crit template (21 hit-worth over 20 attacks) those same 4 attacks will generate in average 1.05 x 1.5 = 1.57 hit-worth per attack.

1.57 / 2.75 = 57 %, hence a 43% decrease in damage due to that change
The decrease is even a bit over 43% due to the other damage added by Earth IV & III being doubled as well pre-u9. Even if we use 2 other dps moves instead of FoI & finisher it doesn't balance the lost damage from earth IV & III. Let's say monks loose 45% of their dps on epic trash.

A khopesh user (27 hit-worth over 20 attacks) was getting 3 hit-worth per attack on a helpless mob. After u9 he will get 1.35 x 1.5 = 2.02 hit-worth per attack

2.02 / 3 = 67 %, hence a 33% decrease in damage due to that change

For heavy picks users that will now use khopeshes it goes further down :
2.02 / 4 = 50.5 %, hence a 49.5 % decrease in damage due to that change

Cool, that change was specifically made to nerf the heavy-picks + helpless state combo, and even outside of the Ki generation issue, we're getting nerfed almost as much as heavy-picks users... since monks were doing sub-optimal dps (vs heavy picks) on epic trash, and sub-par dps (vs khopeshes) on bosses, now we will be doing sub-par dps (vs khopeshes) on both.

Bah

Edit: if you factor in the high number of burst effects for monks, and that people will probably use their lit IIs khopeshes instead of earthgrabber picks, monks are probably loosing more relative dps than picks users on epic trash...

[Daim]

The lack of dev comments is really making me sad. If this is something they are doing to monks for a reason at least man up and tell us.

[maestro973]

The lack of dev comments is really making me sad. If this is something they are doing to monks for a reason at least man up and tell us.

I can assure you they've seen our comments and concerns as they're all over the place. Unfortunately, it is likely the case there is no official response at this time and thus nobody can really come out and acknowledge it on their end.

It is very possible there was oversight on just how much this would affect the monk class...then again, maybe they fully knew what was going to happen. Regardless, the sad truth is I wouldn't expect any sort of resolution (if there is one to be made) before update 10. So we wait.....and wait....

[Khurse]

The lack of dev comments is really making me sad. If this is something they are doing to monks for a reason at least man up and tell us.

Honestly, (and I'm actually not meaning to be a doomsayer oddly enough) I don't think they actually considered it.
I think they thought about it , thought it sounded like a good idea, and didn't realize that Monk DPS with wraps is a bit different than the ubiquitous Khopesh.

[Impatiens]

Actually this would be a downgrade for monks below level 20. Currently the base of the stunning fist DC is 10 + monklevel/2, which is still 20 at level 20, but at level 4 your base DC is currently 12 (instead of 4).

I'm pretty sure he's saying it should be 10 + monk level not just monk level. He's saying to replace the 1/2 monk level part with full monk level. So at level 4 it would be 14. All of the monk finishers that have a DC, Freezing the Life Blood, Curse of the Void, Shining Star, etc use 10 +full monk level + whatever stat modifier. Though, granted, there aren't things like stunning +10 to increase those DCs further. I would say that Quivering Palm should also use full monk level especially with the lack of items that increase the DC of that ability.

[Whargoul]

...My suggestion is to take the average between class level and character level (round down). For example:

Stunning Fist DC = 10 + floor( ( monk level + character level ) / 2 ) + wisdom mod + race/class enhancements + stunning weapon

This would further increase reliability of stunning fist (for all builds) to help compensate for higher epic saves. Pure monk builds would retain very reliable stuns. Monks that dumped wisdom and some cross class monks would still have moderately reliable stuns...

Many monks are already hurt by the fact that they won't get Way of the Crane auto-crit ki recovery, but at least won't have to worry that their successful stun frequency will suffer as well with update 9.

[krogyy]

Monks with grandmaster earth stance usually go with Earth IV / Earth III / Fist of Iron / Earth finisher when hitting a stunned mob that have enough hp to finish that sequence (read: epic mostly). So over 4 attacks they are getting 2+2+3+4 hit-worth of damage, averaging 2.75 hit-worth per attack.

quite wrong assumptions here.

that combo can be performed every 4 secs. in 4 secs the monk perform 7.8 attacks so you are forgetting the other 3.8 attacks that are not ki strikes.

i believe the average crit modifier is very close to 2.4x accounting for these.

[Barazon]

I'm pretty sure he's saying it should be 10 + monk level not just monk level. He's saying to replace the 1/2 monk level part with full monk level. So at level 4 it would be 14. All of the monk finishers that have a DC, Freezing the Life Blood, Curse of the Void, Shining Star, etc use 10 +full monk level + whatever stat modifier. Though, granted, there aren't things like stunning +10 to increase those DCs further. I would say that Quivering Palm should also use full monk level especially with the lack of items that increase the DC of that ability.

Alright, I understand now, thanks. In view of the fact that stunning does have +10 items to modify it, I doubt they'll be changing stunning fist to use full monk level. Even without the autocrit damage, they do not want to have "free" disabling of monsters. However their idea of free, meaning no mana cost, does not mean free to me. Giving up str, con and dex in order to raise wisdom to improve stunning fist is NOT "free" by any stretch of the word.

[Malky]

quite wrong assumptions here.

that combo can be performed every 4 secs. in 4 secs the monk perform 7.8 attacks so you are forgetting the other 3.8 attacks that are not ki strikes.

i believe the average crit modifier is very close to 2.4x accounting for these.

According to vanshilar's attack speed post, unarmed attack speed is 111 attack/min with haste which turns into 7.4 attack animations per 4s.

And, dunno for you but in epics i usually have a pair of barbs sticking to me like flies, and i'm lucky if i can get the finisher to land before the stunned trash mob lays on the floor... let alone having 4 attacks after the finisher.

[krogyy]

According to vanshilar's attack speed post, unarmed attack speed is 111 attack/min with haste which turns into 7.4 attack animations per 4s.

And, dunno for you but in epics i usually have a pair of barbs sticking to me like flies, and i'm lucky if i can get the finisher to land before the stunned trash mob lays on the floor... let alone having 4 attacks after the finisher.

the 3-4 more normal attacks are not after the finisher are in between your combo. you attack faster that you can activate ki strikes for the combo = not all attacks are ki strikes during the 4 sec the combo is built

and if you didn't even get the finisher before the average multiplier is even lower so even less reasons to worry about the change.

[Malky]

the 3-4 more normal attacks are not after the finisher are in between your combo. you attack faster that you can activate ki strikes for the combo = not all attacks are ki strikes during the 4 sec the combo is built

and if you didn't even get the finisher before the average multiplier is even lower so even less reasons to worry about the change.

It takes me about 2s average to fire off all 3 strikes + finisher so no, you don't get additionnal attacks between ki strikes. Not at all.

[Caseas]

We all reroll into Barbs grind back too lvl 20, completely re-equip, throwing away all our uber monk gear thats worthless to a barb. and monks become extinct besides the rare light monk that only plays him so his guild has em for ToD.

Really kinda sucks. for some reason they are trying to do mass genocide on monks.

This is exactly the kind of naysaying I would expect from the Shintao. Embrace the Touch of Death and it's effects on helpless enemies.

[Caseas]

Alright, I understand now, thanks. In view of the fact that stunning does have +10 items to modify it, I doubt they'll be changing stunning fist to use full monk level. Even without the autocrit damage, they do not want to have "free" disabling of monsters. However their idea of free, meaning no mana cost, does not mean free to me. Giving up str, con and dex in order to raise wisdom to improve stunning fist is NOT "free" by any stretch of the word.

Don't use stunning fist then, there are alternatives.

[AeliusMaximus]

This is exactly the kind of naysaying I would expect from the Shintao. Embrace the Touch of Death and it's effects on helpless enemies.

mmmmmm ... get out much? I'll bet you pick up a lot of chicks with these kinds of comments. For example, like in your other recent trolling errrr, I mean posts ....

"I break faces" - Caseas

"I love seeing the tears of the Shintao" - Caseas

"I'm an in-your-face dps dark monk" - Caseas

I'll bet you're quite the ladies man! /rolls eyes

[krogyy]

It takes me about 2s average to fire off all 3 strikes + finisher so no, you don't get additionnal attacks between ki strikes. Not at all.

maybe the first time you perform the combo but then the cooldowns kick in

[dpadan17]

Don't use stunning fist then, there are alternatives.

omg, really that is the best you got? here, it's like take this epic sos, use it for a while, embrace all the glory it has, then.....oh wait, were gonna nerf the heck out of it. so like you said, don't use it.....there is alternatives. oh and btw then your alternative would be a +1 greatsword (that's it nothing else). or even not take thf, ithf,gthf and so on.... not a good comment by you.

why would we have to use an alternative when that is a FEATURE for monks to train. We grind out a life, spec our monk to be balanced with wisdom and other scores, and now we have to COMPLETELY gimp our build from our other stats to make due? not a good move at all by the developers.

i'm for losing the autocrit (I can accept it), i can also understand the unlimited amount of ki as being a concern, why not

1. leave stunning where it is
2. lose the auto crit when they are helpless
3. lower the amount of ki generated on a critical hit
4. keep all other mod's proposed

[Ssmooth]

And here I thought wisdom was not a dump stat for a monk...wrong again.

I really hope my monk will not become useless in epics. While I'm happy for my rogue, this new update might become very frustrating.

[grodon9999]

And here I thought wisdom was not a dump stat for a monk...wrong again.

If it's gonna require your to go full-****** on Wisdom to get a DC that'll actually land then yes, dump it and don't bother. What's the point if you won't be able to hit or damage your target?

However . . . how well are the 40 DC stunning fists working on Lamania? Are they complete garbage or good enough?

[grodon9999]

Double post