Combat tactics and saving throw feats for TWF Kensai

[CThruTheEgo]

What's the consensus on the combat tactics feats (stunning blow, imp trip, sap) for a TWF khopesh kensai? Are they worth taking? Can a TWF hit the DC's needed for this to be effective?

Also, are the saving throw feats worth taking? I know fort save bonuses are a waste on a fighter. And I'm guessing bullheaded and maybe force of personality are recommended for an intimitank. But what about iron will, lightning reflexes, and luck of heroes? Are they needed/useless at endgame for a TWF khopesh kensai?

I need a fighter to use my new event scimis and was just thinking about some build options. All feedback is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[dkyle]

Stunning Blow: Absolutely. You should be able to hit useful DCs on this. TWF actually helps, since they'll need to save twice 80% of the time when you activate this.
Imp. Trip: Meh. If you're already taking Combat Expertise (because you want an AC-tanking mode), it's not bad. Trip itself is free, and can be worth using.
Sap, Sunder: Junk.

Saving Throw feats: Junk, except maybe Bullheaded for an intimitank. Saves just aren't that important. In general, you get more out of just another Toughness.

[Darkrok]

What's the consensus on the combat tactics feats (stunning blow, imp trip, sap) for a TWF khopesh kensai? Are they worth taking? Can a TWF hit the DC's needed for this to be effective?

Also, are the saving throw feats worth taking? I know fort save bonuses are a waste on a fighter. And I'm guessing bullheaded and maybe force of personality are recommended for an intimitank. But what about iron will, lightning reflexes, and luck of heroes? Are they needed/useless at endgame for a TWF khopesh kensai?

I need a fighter to use my new event scimis and was just thinking about some build options. All feedback is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I would hold off on any decisions about anything having to do with an intimitank. Intimidate as a skill is in such a state of flux that it's hard to make any worthwhile statements about any toon building around the intimidate skill at the moment.

[CThruTheEgo]

I would hold off on any decisions about anything having to do with an intimitank. Intimidate as a skill is in such a state of flux that it's hard to make any worthwhile statements about any toon building around the intimidate skill at the moment.

I'm actually not looking to do an intimitank with this guy. I was just pointing out what I already knew/assumed about the saving throw feats. Buy yes, I agree, need to wait and see how intimidate pans out before planning for it.

[CThruTheEgo]

Stunning Blow: Absolutely. You should be able to hit useful DCs on this. TWF actually helps, since they'll need to save twice 80% of the time when you activate this.
Imp. Trip: Meh. If you're already taking Combat Expertise (because you want an AC-tanking mode), it's not bad. Trip itself is free, and can be worth using.
Sap, Sunder: Junk.

Saving Throw feats: Junk, except maybe Bullheaded for an intimitank. Saves just aren't that important. In general, you get more out of just another Toughness.

I do like the idea of two stunning blows. As far as imp trip, I have it on my THF now and I like the crowd control ability with it, stunning blow one, trip another, start beat down on another. But yeah I could probably do just as well without imp trip and just using the free trip feat.

I was thinking also that 22 more HP would be worth more than any of the save feats.

+1

[jmonty]

imp trip can be fun for leveling, i don't know how effective it is endgame. i took it with the intent of swapping it out at some point

[somenewnoob]

Trip has always been a fav of mine. It is pretty useful at least early (under 10) levels. Don't know about higher level content. Sunder......never used it once. ST feats......seem like a waste. I'd rather go more toughness = more hp if I had feats to burn like that. (Which as a human fighter I do!)

[SetofBs]

I personally love improved trip. I use it constantly on my dwarven kensai. I find it really helps control incoming damage to yourself from decent melee mobs and to the group from casters. Right now at level 11 he carries around a vertigo weapon in the off hand just to ensure he can trip anything he wants to. Just tell your group what you will be doing so they don't think everything lying on the ground is dead.

It is a bit of a sacrifice to have the int for combat expertise, but I think it could be nice to have a AC mode in some cases, although I must admit I don't think I've turned on CE yet on my kensai at level 11. I do carry a tower shield just in case though

I can definitely see why some wouldn't want to sacrifice Str/con to get the int but I think its a viable choice to go either way, even if you don't plan to be a "tank".

[Feithlin]

The main strength of Sap is that there's no save.

[Kinerd]

Mathematically, with Kensei and a TWF build (and just the usual gear) you can nearly get a respectable Reflex save:

6 Fighter
3 Kensei
5 Resistance
4 Morale (GH)
1 Alchemical
1 Haste
3 Dexterity (base 17)

That's 23, or better than 50% save chance against Arraetrikos' DBF on normal. Now you can throw in 1 or 2 for Luck, 1-3 for Exceptional on a GS item, 2 for Lightning Reflexes, 1 from one of those guild buffs, 3 from a +6 Dex item, and you're at 34, or taking half damage 95% of the time even on elite.

Now, the difference due just to Lightning Reflexes is a 10% save increase, and if we say the difference in save for half and fail for full is 100 damage, that means Lightning Reflexes alone is worth 10 average health in the scenario described. That said, you have to weigh how much more likely the situation of being 100 damage away from death is than being 22 damage away from death. Honestly the answer is probably "neither are very likely at all", so you can do whatever.

[CThruTheEgo]

Now, the difference due just to Lightning Reflexes is a 10% save increase, and if we say the difference in save for half and fail for full is 100 damage, that means Lightning Reflexes alone is worth 10 average health in the scenario described. That said, you have to weigh how much more likely the situation of being 100 damage away from death is than being 22 damage away from death. Honestly the answer is probably "neither are very likely at all", so you can do whatever.

That really puts it into perspective Kinerd, +1 and ty.

Thanks to all for the feedback. I do like the crowd control possibilities. I never even considered imp sunder. I'll definitely go with stunning blow and probably just the free trip to save a couple of feats.

One question I have about sap though. It is broken when the enemy is attacked again. So on a TWF, if sap procs on your first hit, would it then be broken with your second hit? That doesn't sound very effective if that's the case.

[Feithlin]

*Edit: deleted. Didn't read well.

[Jaid314]

One question I have about sap though. It is broken when the enemy is attacked again. So on a TWF, if sap procs on your first hit, would it then be broken with your second hit? That doesn't sound very effective if that's the case.

the offhand strike would also be a sap, just as the offhand strike in a trip attempt would also be a trip.

and imo, it's a very nice ability *if* you're playing with a group capable of not hitting each mob once.