Haste, Rage, Displacement, etc. should all be doubled duration

[grodon9999]

My FvS and my Sorc will drop extend. My SS bard will likely drop it too.

If someone's raid success is dependent on 1 person's 1 feat choice then I wouldn't want to be in that raid anyway.

It's not that . . . it's that is is the obligation of the casters (arcanes, divines, rangers and pallies for resists, etc . . .) to provide certain buffs to the party. If you can do that without extend it's all good.

Expecting people to be 100% self-buffing is absurd (and 3 of my 4 toons are self-buffing).

I'm keeping extend because it lets me be lazier and not have to rebuff people as often.

[grodon9999]

Question for you, what makes you think I'm gonna waste my mana casting 2 minute haste at all?

I know I have other spells that level, I'll need to look at them again.

A caster without haste will have a very hard time finding groups who'll put up with him.

[maddmatt70]

A caster without haste will have a very hard time finding groups who'll put up with him.

Levelling up is one thing, but at the end game it means the person is not a team player and a poor caster because anything that can help melee dps and overall party speed as much as haste should be on the party.

[grodon9999]

Levelling up is one thing, but at the end game it means the person is not a team player and a poor caster because anything that can help melee dps and overall party speed as much as haste should be on the party.

Agreed, same reason why when on my cleric I try my damndest to keep prayer, recitation (saves more than AC) and Holy aura on the party at all times. Extend will make that easier for me so I'm keeping it (as well as my own divine power/favor).

[Farayon]

it's that is is the obligation of the casters (arcanes, divines, rangers and pallies for resists, etc . . .) to provide certain buffs to the party. If you can do that without extend it's all good.

That's precisely my understanding, but there are indeed some posters in this thread who are planning to squelch those without extend just because they don't have extend even if they keep buffs up as usual.

I personally like extend a lot and find it useful. After u9 it likely won't be worth the precious feat slot any more because there are even more useful feats.

[taurean430]

There's still certain things that's expected of certain classes in certain quests/raids. The arcanes are expected, and rightfully so, to haste the party. If you don't mind doing this twice as often more then it's fine.

All in all this was a really stupid change on Turbine's part.

I agree with you, and subscribe to that notion on all of my toons regardless of class. The point of contention lies with folks who believe that casters taking a feat that isn't useful for them is mandatory to get into raids.

My melee divines for example solo quite a bit. They also group for quests/raids, as well as run with guild. Only one of them has extend. Number of raids that have failed because of that fact = 0. That includes epics.

Fact is that arcane classes are getting a couple of nerfs, but some serious boosts as well. It speaks poorly of those who wish to try to pressure them into taking a feat that isn't useful for them. Some will choose to keep it, some won't. With all of these changes quickly coming, playstyles will be affected. This is a given.

Either way nothing changes as far a buffing is concerned. What is changing really is what happens after that. I've come to the conclusion that a lot of players are going to have serious issues with the increase in arcane effectiveness at end game.

[grodon9999]

Either way nothing changes as far a buffing is concerned. What is changing really is what happens after that. I've come to the conclusion that a lot of players are going to have serious issues with the increase in arcane effectiveness at end game.

Nobody sane. Look, if I'm in a party with a bunch of sorcs who can three-shoot harry in my shroud why would I care?

[Ganolyn]

Nobody sane. Look, if I'm in a party with a bunch of sorcs who can three-shoot harry in my shroud why would I care?

Well, you're an ends justify the means type of guy. Some princesses don't like sharing the spotlight.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with you, and subscribe to that notion on all of my toons regardless of class. The point of contention lies with folks who believe that casters taking a feat that isn't useful for them is mandatory to get into raids.

My melee divines for example solo quite a bit. They also group for quests/raids, as well as run with guild. Only one of them has extend. Number of raids that have failed because of that fact = 0. That includes epics.

Fact is that arcane classes are getting a couple of nerfs, but some serious boosts as well. It speaks poorly of those who wish to try to pressure them into taking a feat that isn't useful for them. Some will choose to keep it, some won't. With all of these changes quickly coming, playstyles will be affected. This is a given.

Either way nothing changes as far a buffing is concerned. What is changing really is what happens after that. I've come to the conclusion that a lot of players are going to have serious issues with the increase in arcane effectiveness at end game.

If its a case where arcanes are far better then melee then parties will have all arcanes in them and no melee which happened in the orchard/gh days 3 years or so ago. If its a case where melee and arcanes are the equivalent then a caster should still haste the melee and parties will have more of a mix of arcanes and melee in them then they do now. Change is inevitable even if some people will not change.

[Thrudh]

Questions for you. What do you think of casters that do not cast haste on the party at the end game?

They're not good players... But that has little to do with extend. If they fail to haste throughout the entire dungeon, even after we ask, I note their name, and use a Shroud clickable instead...

Second question do you think honestly that everybody will be able to keep 2:00 min haste on the party at the end game throughout a quest not to mention displacement or the shorter rages?

Good casters will be able to.

Will some casters develop a bad reputation because they fail to cast haste or adquately keep the party hasted? Will people want casters that do not cast haste in their group when they apply to join an lfm.

Sure... But not casting haste at all is completely different from casting haste every 2 minutes instead of every 4 minutes.

I can drink haste pots every 30 seconds like the next melee, but after awhile the dps loss for drinking haste every 30 seconds and just the irritation for having to do it all the time starts sucking tell me you do not agree with me.

I rarely use pots... All my guys who can't cast Haste use Shroud clickables instead... Why are you still using pots? I only use pots on my barbarian, and if he's not madstoned (I usually only madstone at end-boss), I'll quite often dismiss rage and use a Shroud clickable instead of pots even on him.

I do have haste clickies on 4 of my characters (shroud or epic time sensing goggles) that can not cast haste, but if I am madstoned or raged can not use them and I also have characters that do not have them. Haste clickies are actually quite expensive so I would put it past the average player to have them.

Well, that's true... but most of the people complaining here are power-gamers and should easily have a couple of Shroud haste and displacement clickables per character.

[Thrudh]

It's not that . . . it's that is is the obligation of the casters (arcanes, divines, rangers and pallies for resists, etc . . .) to provide certain buffs to the party. If you can do that without extend it's all good.

Exactly... so saying "must have extend" to join my party is silly. As long as they can buff without extend, it's all good.

Now, those sprint-boosting barbarians we all love may have to come back to the wizard twice as often... Oh well... get used to it, or use pots.

[Thrudh]

Nobody sane. Look, if I'm in a party with a bunch of sorcs who can three-shoot harry in my shroud why would I care?

Actually, you should care... after a while they'll stop taking YOU along....

(This happened in the Orchard... there were plenty of 4 arcane and 2 cleric parties back then)

[grodon9999]

Actually, you should care... after a while they'll stop taking YOU along....

(This happened in the Orchard... there were plenty of 4 arcane and 2 cleric parties back then)

They'll still take me, I'm teh ubb3r

We've done all those quests without arcanes also.

Every since they decided to make traps an absolute joke in any thing after GH, meaning you aren't forced to bring a rogue (on elite at least), no dynamic should force you to bring anything.

Melee DPS has had it's time in the sun, I too bow to our new Sorc overlords.

[maddmatt70]

.



Well, that's true... but most of the people complaining here are power-gamers and should easily have a couple of Shroud haste and displacement clickables per character.

This statement makes me chuckle. First, there are a whole lot of new powergamers out there that were not around when all we did all day was run the shroud and the shroud pre-flags when the cap was 16. It is the primary reason that the antique greataxe is so popular because getting your shroud, vale ingredients, etc. takes time and there are other raids and quests to run as well. I bet that 95% of the shroud clickies in game were made when the cap was 16 and that is what we did all day. On new characters and for new powergamers there is a signifcant clicky gap I would warrant. Second, alot of non hardcore powergamers run epics and alot of other quests so lets just not haste those players why dont you. Third, madstone and barbarian rage are awesome so what we should stop using those. Fourth, even on powergamers back around 16 I doubt that many made 3+ clickies per character for between the shrine usage haha.

[Thrudh]

This statement makes me chuckle. First, there are a whole lot of new powergamers out there that were not around when all we did all day was run the shroud and the shroud pre-flags when the cap was 16. It is the primary reason that the antique greataxe is so popular because getting your shroud, vale ingredients, etc. takes time and there are other raids and quests to run as well. I bet that 95% of the shroud clickies in game were made when the cap was 16 and that is what we did all day. On new characters and for new powergamers there is a signifcant clicky gap I would warrant. Second, alot of non hardcore powergamers run epics and alot of other quests so lets just not haste those players why dont you. Third, madstone and barbarian rage are awesome so what we should stop using those. Fourth, even on powergamers back around 16 I doubt that many made 3+ clickies per character for between the shrine usage haha.

Points taken...

[steelblueskies]

yep 30 seconds per pot on haste. 30 seconds per use on time sensing goggles(non-epic)which is aoe. how hard are the goggles to get and how many casts for a melee heavy party equipped with them?. you would be amazed how well that works out even into amrath. actually it was just about enough for a paladin and hireling on a per fight basis in sins with a potion per fight, which has some rediculous pack sizes( at least for normal).

but again, potions are a readily renewable resource. feat slots, and sp not so much.

and with epics being doable on lam at present with parties like archmage+tempest ranger+20fvs hireling ( at least for some of them, more testing to do) given a sufficient supply of potions, or patience... well one can surmise if the game isn't balanced such that you can perform sufficiently without something you can't get yourself...

and of course given the magic doesn't simply miss like melee, caster teams seem a bit better off for much of the content.

although i have to agree melee without haste seems sluggish, it's primarily a factor of having gotten too accustomed to having it any other way then normal. and again if its a performance issue, alchemical bonus should stack with enchanted bonus, so bring your potions too then. won't attack faster/run faster but the save/roll boost matters more right?

of course it'd be easier to have you melee types **** off the mobs and kite them while an arcane diligently pulls one or a half dozen at a time, holds them and nukes them, then goes for more. less damage going around, and less hits needed even for much of the epic trash. very laidback and relaxing doing it that way. annoying to have to toss heals on the kiting melee from the hireling when they get caught up in trying to actually kill something on their own. better to have them just run and be chased.

anyhow..

onward to seeing if spells are balanced enough that we get buyable scrolls for EVERYTHING again.

and remember kiddies, haste is for red/purple names, for everything else there's (pwk/wail/finger/hold+dps cast/circle of death/ dot and run away/harsh language).

tired of correcting people on "gib displace plox" when mob x has true seeing too.

/great deal of sarcasm, (yet drawn straight from experiences in testing on lam so far, more testing needed) off

[maddmatt70]

tired of correcting people on "gib displace plox" when mob x has true seeing too.

Mobs almost never have true seeing. Bosses often do but that is another story.

[Uska]

That is just silly wizards can better afford the sacfrice of a feat for extend now bards are much more tight for their feats my bard might keep extend but my wizard will for sure.

[azrael4h]

I agree with you, and subscribe to that notion on all of my toons regardless of class. The point of contention lies with folks who believe that casters taking a feat that isn't useful for them is mandatory to get into raids.

This. The fact is, those few (and it is very few, I noticed) are trying their best to turn it into a not-hasting caster vs a hasting caster, instead of the real argument, that of a non-extending caster. Taking extend does not equal casting haste; I'd imagine most arcanes and bards who never cast haste also carry extend.

I reiterate. If after 5 years and countless raids, 2 extra minutes on a haste will break your build, then the problem isn't with a extra two minutes. Not having haste on has never bothered me in the least, and yes I've ran raids where I rarely had an arcane cast it (or just missed it if they do). I'm not even particularly bugged by the dot spells losing extend, as it frees a feat that I only used for buffs anyway. My DoTs tend to kill things entirely too fast to make use of that 10sp. +1 to hit and damage and 20hp won't kill me or seriously affect my output, and displacement isn't all that grand against a true-seeing boss.

Suck less, rock more. Works for me. Feel free to not group with me, assuming I don't log on and get grabbed by someone I've ran with before. I won't carry extend on feat-starved builds. Maybe if I build a Wizard, since they get a few extra, but for a Sorcerer, no. I can easily find a better group, one that will fill and complete, while you're screaming at casters for daring to not take a feat that doesn't really grant a major benefit anymore. Heck, if it's anything like "need heals" and "link pots/weapons" groups, I'll probably find another, better group that will complete a raid before you fill yours. I've seen it happen several times.

[azrael4h]

As a divine now, I tend to avoid groups looking for a healer. That's fun stuff. When I was pm/sorc, I didn't care.

I have two divines currently raiding. Both will automatically avoid those groups.

My sorc is stuck as a helper for a guildy who is currently annoying me. If I wasn't planning a TR into Sorc, I'd level it. As is, it's stuck at 9.