How to make epics more Epic.

[ClashM]

The reason FF works in PnP is because PnP is turn based and grid based. DDO everything happens in real time and there is no grid. Also to make up for DDO being real time the devs nerfed pretty much everything and changed a whole lot of game mechanics.

[Daggerrr]

This is exactly what the OP is suggesting. Players being allowed to attack and kill each other in epic instances, either deliberately or by mistake.

The fact they are trying to disguise it as "Friendly Fire" does not change the Premise, of turning an epic instance into an Open PVP Run.

I think there's a significant difference. For example, I personally do not like PvP at all, but if a quest requires keeping FF in mind, I'd certainly grab a couple of my good friends and go try it out. I probably wouldn't pug such a quest, but guild runs will be immensely fun.

Again, some people find quests with lots of jumping fun, some people find straight hacking at monsters fun, I may think such a quest with FF is fun, variety is good. Nobody's forcing anybody to go into a quest with "FF on" just like nobody's forcing anybody to do the Pit.

[wiglin]

Just to clarify what I conceded to was the fact that IF the current game mechanics made if physically impossible without an overhaul then it would not be worth the time, since more content is better as a whole. I would not want to see any type of game mechanic changed that did the following.

1) create more lag
2) cause the game to go into another season of no content

I still like the idea of FF as a toggable option. If this was an option for all quests and granted +25% more exp for every quest while leveling I would choose the option, since most of my leveling sprints last a week or two and are typically in parties less than 3. Few times would the friendly fire be an issue, since we typically split up and handle our own part of the quest to zerg even faster.

But if hit mechanics, glancing blows, etc.. could not be worked out without an overhaul of the mechanics themselves then it would not be worth the time. If a barb could not hit from the front without doing damage to the rogue hitting from behind then it is a bad idea. Since even in a FF mode we have to assume that when the barb is hitting the enemy the buck stops here so to speak, because even though the graphic animation may be connecting with the rogue, actual hit mechanic should stop with what is targeted in front. These are some of the issue that others use to argue against FF, and I would agree that if that was the case it is a bad idea, my point is I don't think anyone can say if it would or wouldn't under the current game engine since it is not implemented.

I don't like separate servers by creating toggles in the quest window any one can choose to or choose not to. Sometimes I don't want a challenge, I just want to login and blow stuff up, so I wouldn't want some new forced way to complete the quest. Just an option that would bring new creativity in tactics and gameplay.

With all that said. FF was an idea that if the current game mechanics make it impossible then lets make the best with what we have and move forward. FF isn't the goal. Creating a way to maximize on the potential of real time combat is.

[Ungood]

I think there's a significant difference.

There isn't.

For example, I personally do not like PvP at all, but if a quest requires keeping FF in mind, I'd certainly grab a couple of my good friends and go try it out. I probably wouldn't pug such a quest, but guild runs will be immensely fun.

Again, some people find quests with lots of jumping fun, some people find straight hacking at monsters fun, I may think such a quest with FF is fun, variety is good. Nobody's forcing anybody to go into a quest with "FF on" just like nobody's forcing anybody to do the Pit.

By all means, there us an arena you an take entire groups into, even make a raid group size for added "fun". Feel free to go jump and die to your "buddies" fire wall till your blue in the face, just keep it out my content.

Comprend?

[wiglin]

By all means, there us an arena you an take entire groups into, even make a raid group size for added "fun". Feel free to go jump and die to your "buddies" fire wall till your blue in the face

My first thoughts are that you are being sarcastic, since you despise the idea. Just in case you are not though. People who like the idea of FF, do not want to jump in each others wall of fires. That is not the goal.

That would be like saying when I am playing hardcore mode in CoD, I do it so I can be shot and killed by my teamates. When in reality I like the added challenge of having to communicate with my teammates to know where they before I blind fire though a wall or chunk a random grenade.

The goal is create teamwork and not the usual rambo style gameplay that is typical when FF is disabled.

[Daggerrr]

There isn't.



By all means, there us an arena you an take entire groups into, even make a raid group size for added "fun". Feel free to go jump and die to your "buddies" fire wall till your blue in the face, just keep it out my content.

Comprend?

... the OP proposed a toggle system. How is that "in your content"? If you cannot tell the difference between PvP and FF after the explaination, it's not me who has a problem with comprehension, it is you.

[Daggerrr]

My first thoughts are that you are being sarcastic, since you despise the idea. Just in case you are not though. People who like the idea of FF, do not want to jump in each others wall of fires. That is not the goal.

That would be like saying when I am playing hardcore mode in CoD, I do it so I can be shot and killed by my teamates. When in reality I like the added challenge of having to communicate with my teammates to know where they before I blind fire though a wall or chunk a random grenade.

The goal is create teamwork and not the usual rambo style gameplay that is typical when FF is disabled.

Exactly, I'd love to go into a dungeon with just the two of us with FF on and see how we do. Now imagine doing that with 2 hirelings... now we'd really make it fun :-D

[ClashM]

It simply will not work unless they completely redesign the combat system! Too many fighters with glancing blow, too many spells, too many arrows! Unless you plan to run every mission with EXTREMELY limited numbers (i.e. 3) everyone would be getting in each others way constantly.

Just so you understand where I'm coming from I play every game with friendly fire on that has that as a feature. These games are designed with FF in mind and DDO is not.

It will not work.

[Ungood]

... the OP proposed a toggle system. How is that "in your content"? If you cannot tell the difference between PvP and FF after the explaination, it's not me who has a problem with comprehension, it is you.

While I know after reading several of your posts you have no ability to rationalize.

But why wait for Turbine to get around to this silly idea, you can test it out now, to see how well it works.

Don't know how? Let me tell you!

Take your buddy wiglin, and go explore a dungeon and cast Grease everywhere! Tell me how great it is.

[Ungood]

My first thoughts are that you are being sarcastic, since you despise the idea. Just in case you are not though. People who like the idea of FF, do not want to jump in each others wall of fires. That is not the goal.

It simply put, does not work that way and this game is not designed that way. And the population at large does not like PvP, or else Grease (and other Friendly Fire spells) would be a welcomed, not ones that get you blacklisted for using.

There are enough Open PvP games out there that let you engage that level of griefing to your hearts content, but I for one like the idea that my character has enough built in common sense not to shoot their fellow team mates in the back, so I can focus on other things, like, say, killing the mob in question.

[VorpalLaugh]

Take your buddy wiglin, and go explore a dungeon and cast Grease everywhere! Tell me how great it is.

They wouldn't do that, at least one would hope, because it is a very poor choice tactically.


@ OP
I think the idea could be a good one. Unfortunately, lag and controller response might make it impossible to
implement correctly without a lot of time and effort from the devs. But for discussion's sake lets say it is not an issue. Here are some ideas of mine to help with some problems. I believe they are pretty easy fixes, but could be wrong.
1. Does not affect AI. Too much A not enough I
2. Glancing blows. Maybe a free toggleble stance such as; "Controlled attack -x to damage no glancing blows to allies." Or players could just switch or one that does not affect damage and removes glancing blows completely.
3. a few new spells/feats that help to corral mobs together or seperate them from each other or allies.
4. Deepwood snipers would never hit allies with range attacks (finally a use for the deepwood sniper)

[eonfreon]

Just to clarify what I conceded to was the fact that IF the current game mechanics made if physically impossible without an overhaul then it would not be worth the time, since more content is better as a whole. I would not want to see any type of game mechanic changed that did the following.

1) create more lag
2) cause the game to go into another season of no content

I still like the idea of FF as a toggable option. If this was an option for all quests and granted +25% more exp for every quest while leveling I would choose the option, since most of my leveling sprints last a week or two and are typically in parties less than 3. Few times would the friendly fire be an issue, since we typically split up and handle our own part of the quest to zerg even faster.

FF sounds cool, but the logistics of changing the system aside, I don't think it would make Epic harder, or any other quest for that matter. Because of the AI problem you spoke of in your OP.

I think it would be even easier. I would be able to use the enemy's own spells against them. The Mobs aren't smart enough to stay out of our WoF. Why would they be smart enough to stay out of their own?

I guess that could be fixed by not allowing FF for Mobs? Maybe.

But without major work I would be against it giving any benefits to people who chose FF, because it doesn't seem like it would actually be "harder" by any degree that would substantiate the ability to get better rewards.

As an option for the heck of it , sure. As an option that would garner greater rewards, no. Not without a major overhaul of the AI at any rate.