2 new packs, not just 1? (Update 10 perhaps?)

[sirgog]

We always wins. Even if we don't kill the armorers at all, most groups can outdps his regen from them staying alive. And its not even stacked groups, even when im on my wizard, just taking whatever pug melee signs up, it works.

We killed him in a single round the other night, armorers were irellevant.. Throw enough dps at that raid and you break any strategy that anyone may try to say.

A group with that amount of DPS will find elite ToD a joke too, if Horoth and Suulo both die within 3 minutes (~3500 total raid DPS), only a small number of orthons will spawn, and they are the main danger in that encounter. Also healer SP won't be stretched.

Maybe instead of saying 'eChrono is the second hardest raid in the game' it would be better to say 'eChrono isn't tough, but everything else in the game except eTOD is even easier'.

I want to see combat encounters where groups wipe over and over again trying to figure out what to do - not like the Titan or Abbot where the challenge is in some minigame barely related to your character's abilities, but where the challenge is in surviving unforgiving boss attacks, dealing with mob/boss abilities that require an immediate response, and killing the boss fast.

An example (copied from another thread a while back) of what an actual combat challenge (for a 6-person epic) might look like:



Demon themed, at the toughest edge of current encounters. This foe is faced alone, and the players have just had access to a shrine allowing them to enter the battle fully rested and fully buffed.

Nythkatos, Glabrezu (an image of a Glabrezu can be found here: http://www.vesivus.com/eBay/dndminis/GoL_Glabrezu.jpg, they are Huge size so ~20ft=6.1 metres tall)
Purple-named
Defenses: SR 40, saves all very high, Epic Ward, Raidboss immunities, 67 AC (see below), DR 10/cold iron AND good AND epic, 176k HP, very fast movement (200% of player base speed), teleport on a 20 sec cooldown, 20% fortification, 20% concealment (as Blur), 20 resistance to all elements, immunity to Lightning. Also, at 30% health, see 'Berserk' below.
Melee attacks: 4 attacks per attack chain, attack chain duration 2.4 seconds. Like Lailat, multiple attacks come close to each other in the chain. +84 To-Hit, 8d12+25 (77 average damage). Blind-fight.

Unique spells (all max-empped and extended, all save DCs are 45):
All of these except the first require one or more of the players to stop auto-attacking the Glabrezu and do something specific, keeping the encounter changing. These spells (like the Abbot's Inferno, Conjure Phase Wraith, Encasement and Disjunction) all share a 20 second cooldown, and the Glabrezu casts one at random each time the cooldown expires.
Hellball: Conjures a deadly ball of elemental chaos. Deals 10d8 (loaded, so 50-80) base fire damage, plus an equal amount of electric, acid and cold damage, to each foe within a 40ft radius of the target. Reflex half for each component of the spell. (Max-Empped, this spell deals ~530 damage to someone that has all four 30-point elemental resists and fails all four saves. Treated as a level 11 spell for save DC purposes). This spell is always cast on the Glabrezu's primary aggro target. Like other Fireball-type spells, this spell will detonate early if it hits a target before its chosen one.
Necrotic Field: Will negates. This spell is targeted upon a foe and lasts 8 seconds (16 extended). Upon a failed Will save, the target becomes a powerful conduit for negative energy. The target and all of its allies within 20ft suffer 100 negative energy damage per 2 seconds (Deathward negates, this heals Pale Masters instead of harming them) and all incoming arcane and divine healing is reduced by 75%. This spell is never cast on the Glabrezu's primary aggro target but is instead cast on a random other player. (The affected player is intended to run away from the party, and if only one player is alive and is thus the primary aggro target, the Glabrezu will cast it on them).
Conjure Elemental Servant: This spell conjures a powerful elemental servant (earth, fire, water or air) with Epic Ward and 7000hp. This elemental fights as standard for its type. In addition, it grants all of its allies a 200% buff to damage dealt by spells of its element (acid damage for the earth elemental, cold for water). This needs to be killed immediately by the players - if it is still alive and Hellball is cast, Hellball will probably wipe the party.
Soullock: Upon casting this spell, the Glabrezu creates a crystal on the ground. Five seconds later, the crystal shatters. All foes with line of sight to the crystal when it shatters are struck by a Trap the Soul spell (Will DC 45 negates). Players must hide behind any of the (quite large) pillars in the room when this is cast.

Berserk: When reduced to 30% HP, the Glabrezu starts conserving energy and loses the ability to use its unique spells (this lets players mob up any elementals that may be active). At 20%, it goes berserk, and starts casting Hellball on a random party member every six seconds, and his attack chain speeds up to take 1.6 seconds, however his AC drops by 20 and he loses his Fortification. Once he goes berserk - you better kill him fast.

For comparisons: 176k HP is a fraction more than Normal Suulomades (but less than Normal Horoth). 67 AC is very high, IIRC it's the same as Epic Malicia and higher than Epic Lailat. His melee damage output (measured per second) is similar to that done by elite Horoth (if you include the badges), however Displacement will reduce this by 25%. This fight is intended to take a typical party 4-5 minutes.

[sirgog]

You are joking, right?

Again this raid was hard the first 1-5 times but after that it's not at all unless you're grouping with idiots with no concept of aggro control.

Ditto ToD elite.

I've never wiped in either, except the first time I tried part 1 of eTOD.

I stand by the statement that TOD hard is even more trivial than eChrono, however.

[grodon9999]

Ditto ToD elite.

I've never wiped in either, except the first time I tried part 1 of eTOD.

I stand by the statement that TOD hard is even more trivial than eChrono, however.

With guild runs ToD hard is trivial, but pugs on the other hand . . . .

I don't pug eChrono so I can see where that could get dicey.

[sirgog]

With guild runs ToD hard is trivial, but pugs on the other hand . . . .

I don't pug eChrono so I can see where that could get dicey.

I don't PUG eChrono either. Guildies tell me that half the time you have ten deaths from idiots pulling 20 mobs at a time outside, and the other half of the time, noone actually bothers to suppress the CAD's regen, so the fight takes 20 minutes because he heals 1k+ hp per second the whole time.

And that's not to mention the runs that give up on Bloodplate because he heals more than they hurt him.

I'm exaggerating, but I've heard more complaints in guild about eChrono runs than TOD runs. Regardless, I really only run eChrono when guildies want shards or when friends want to run it, I have all the shards I want out of there and more.