Pale masters in U9

[oberon131313]

It's fantastic for Necromonks. +2 die step to unarmed attacks and -20% attack speed works out to roughly 10-20% more damage (depending on Str bonus) at 6 Wiz/6 Mnk.

That's what I assumed at first too, turns out that 20% hurts more than you would think.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=308886

[Scraap]

Not terribly enthralled with the destructible heat-seeking dot (minions) purchase cost or the direct damage slas we get either at this point, but I'd hold off till we see just what fixing things like http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...42#post3676342 (and anyone thinking that won't get the nerfbat is delusional) brings in terms of the other pre damage output over 15 seconds as a percentage of mob hit-points, before spending 4 sp on doom.

[donfilibuster]

Overall i'm liking what PM are getting, since there were no early hint there will be PM changes this update.
One good thing for necrotic blast is that spells now cause extra damage on helpless targets, formerly useless in this situation.
Fully boosted neg energy and extra +50% should be no joke for its zero sp cost and fast cooldown.
I am yet to see if necrotic ray has been affected by the changes, if all rays were boosted this will be a win.

The shroud of the zombie lets PMs self-heal at level 6.

this.

PM was incredibly weak at lv 6 compared to AM but now that has been corrected.
No point comparing zombie to lich or even think it might be usable at lv 20, it is meant for lv 6 to 11.
Wizards need not switch PrEs mid-game anymore.

Light spells: Now incredibly painful to Pm's - while this is how it should be, this will make a big difference to incoming damage at lower levels

I was under the impression that PM was *already* vulnerable to light damage.
To the point i had to turn off form on quests like undermine, and mind my lich isn't a squishy wizard.

This is true even in PvP where Shards of Light are the one thing with which an AA could kill a PM, not that it matters, is just an example.

[Trillea]

this.

PM was incredibly weak at lv 6 compared to AM but now that has been corrected.
No point comparing zombie to lich or even think it might be usable at lv 20, it is meant for lv 6 to 11.
Wizards need not switch PrEs mid-game anymore.



I was under the impression that PM was *already* vulnerable to light damage.
To the point i had to turn off form on quests like undermine, and mind my lich isn't a squishy wizard.

This is true even in PvP where Shards of Light are the one thing with which an AA could kill a PM, not that it matters, is just an example.

Yes, they were light-vulnerable, but they specifically stated it now because of the increased vulnerability in vampire form.

[AylinIsAwesome]

actually the elven arcanium enhancements give +20 sp and +1 spell pen per teir (10 AP for +4 spell pen from them vs. 12 AP for +3 spell pen standard, and they can take BOTH), does it offset 20 hp and 1 fortitude? IMO against high spell pen targets such as the drow in OOB, yes that +4 spell pen can be very handy and I can still break 440 hp (and remember that Helf gets some of these tiers as well, with NO con penalty.

Helves have Arcane Fluidity, not Elven Arcanum.

If they did, the best Wizard would be Helf (probably with Pally Dilettante).

[Trillea]

Helves have Arcane Fluidity, not Elven Arcanum.

If they did, the best Wizard would be Helf (probably with Pally Dilettante).

Aww, they don't get Arcanum? Lame.

[mournbladereigns]

It feels like PM's got the short end of the stick in a lot of cases in update nine, which is a shame since they weren't incredibly overpowered to begin with.

Echoes of power: Without any sp based SLA's, this is decisively useless. Unless you adore those tier 1 skeletons.

Light spells: Now incredibly painful to Pm's - while this is how it should be, this will make a big difference to incoming damage at lower levels

Death spells: Low cooldown potent wail and fod were really what made PM worthwhile. While I appreciate that we now have circle of death, this is still a heavy blow.

Shrouds: Arn't different enough with new additions.
Choose between:
Zombie - undead, -1 dc
Vampire - undead, +2 enchantment dc
Wraith - undead, 25% stacking incorp, (move silently and balance)
Lich - undead, +1 dc, +1 necro dc, temp hp.

The three necrotic abilities don't approach the potency of the sla's now available to both archmage and savant since they are not affected by metamagics - notably, they cannot be heightened, and there is no easy way to raise their dc. As such, everything ever past level 16 saves against almost every attempt, made increasingly poor by the cheaper nuke spells in any case.

Some ideas, applicable in whatever mix:

Give each form an individual spellpoint based SLA, usable only in that form. For example,
Zombie: Touch range fort save paralysis, similar to ghoul touch, shortlived - 3/4 seconds - 4 sp - 4s cooldown
Vampire: Single target ranged 'command' effect, will save. - 6 sp, 6 second cooldown
Wraith: Applies single negative level, touch range, deathward protects. - 8 sp, 5 second cooldown
Lich: Touch range fortitude death effect, complementing wail survivors. -10 sp, 15 second cooldown

Give the summons some use by giving them specialized roles. Add these to descriptions.
Add the base skeleton to each line.
Base skeleton: High DC trip, deals useful physical damage. Moderately tough.
Knight: Invisible but potent aura of hate. Almost no physical damage. Tough.
Archer: Applies destruction / improved destruction to targets each hit. Frail.
Mage: Restrict spells to nukes, dealing high elemental damage. Moderately frail. (Tougher than archer, more likely to draw attacks)

Autoheighten the necrotic abilities, letting us actually deal something resembling damage with them. While still not on par with evocation archmage or savant, let them be useful for more than "I have to look like I'm doing something".

I'd be happy with just one or two varients on these themes.

Hmmm, while the form 'nerf' addition is kind of blow. I see PM as being better with new spell changes.

The Death spells have had HP/HD caps removed, they do significant damage on a failed save. Which means you never 'waste' a casting, so the Cooldown is less painful. Enervation/Energy Drain now do -2 to saves per level. With CoD/Wail/FoD seems like you can clear a room plenty easy now. They also reduced the cooldowns closer to Sorc speeds. They had all their major death spells buffed increasing their nukeing potential. I don't see that as a nerf.

# Circle of Death: Now effects all targets regardless of hit dice. Cooldown is 30 seconds for wizards, 25 seconds for sorcerers. The description has been updated as follows:

* "Rains dark energy into an area. Living Creatures are subject to a death effect; getting a reflex save and then a fortitute save to avoid death. Targets who succeed against the reflex save suffer no ill effect, but creatures who succeed against the fortitute save will still lose 1d4 energy levels."

Undeath to Death: The hit dice cap has been removed. Undead in the area of effect must make a will save to negate the effect. The cooldown for wizards,clerics, and favored souls is now 30 seconds, 25 seconds for sorcerers.

# Finger of Death: The spell now deals 8 to 12 negative energy damage per caster level on a successful save. Cooldown is now 8 seconds, 6 for sorcerers.

Symbol of Death: The spell's hit point cap has been removed. The spell now does energy drain damage, instead of requiring creatures to make a saving throw versus death. The cooldown is now 80 seconds for wizards, 60 seconds for sorcerers.

Wail of the Banshee: The spell now does 4 to 6 damage per caster level in negative energy damage on successful save. The cooldown is now 30 seconds, 25 seconds for sorcerers.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Aww, they don't get Arcanum? Lame.

Pretty sure they don't...just checked both the compendium and the wiki.

But I don't have the race so I can't make one to say with 100% accuracy.

[Scraap]

Hmmm, while the form 'nerf' addition is kind of blow. I see PM as being better with new spell changes.

The Death spells have had HP/HD caps removed, they do significant damage on a failed save. Which means you never 'waste' a casting, so the Cooldown is less painful. Enervation/Energy Drain now do -2 to saves per level. With CoD/Wail/FoD seems like you can clear a room plenty easy now. They also reduced the cooldowns closer to Sorc speeds. They had all their major death spells buffed increasing their nukeing potential. I don't see that as a nerf.

# Circle of Death: Now effects all targets regardless of hit dice. Cooldown is 30 seconds for wizards, 25 seconds for sorcerers. The description has been updated as follows:

* "Rains dark energy into an area. Living Creatures are subject to a death effect; getting a reflex save and then a fortitute save to avoid death. Targets who succeed against the reflex save suffer no ill effect, but creatures who succeed against the fortitute save will still lose 1d4 energy levels."

Undeath to Death: The hit dice cap has been removed. Undead in the area of effect must make a will save to negate the effect. The cooldown for wizards,clerics, and favored souls is now 30 seconds, 25 seconds for sorcerers.

# Finger of Death: The spell now deals 8 to 12 negative energy damage per caster level on a successful save. Cooldown is now 8 seconds, 6 for sorcerers.

Symbol of Death: The spell's hit point cap has been removed. The spell now does energy drain damage, instead of requiring creatures to make a saving throw versus death. The cooldown is now 80 seconds for wizards, 60 seconds for sorcerers.

Wail of the Banshee: The spell now does 4 to 6 damage per caster level in negative energy damage on successful save. The cooldown is now 30 seconds, 25 seconds for sorcerers.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but successful save = your DC is too low. Meaning casters without the PM enhancements got a boost to utility there, not the pre that emphasizes higher DC's.

It's the blanket immunity removal that's the buff. The rest are in fact nerfs to the pre's utility for those that don't use the full set of capabilities.

[QuantumFX]

Shroud of the Zombie? Ok, what purpose does this actually serve? Is it just a joke.

I think that's more for the times where you grab a greataxe and cast master's Touch on it. (Which is fairly common at low levels.)

[AylinIsAwesome]

I think that's more for the times where you grab a greataxe and cast master's Touch on it. (Which is fairly common at low levels.)

Actually, I think it's so PMs can self-heal at lower levels.

-20% attack speed is a huge, "don't even try to melee", sign to me...

[Eladrin]

Shroud of the Zombie? Ok, what purpose does this actually serve? Is it just a joke.

It lets a Pale Master play as a Pale Master from level 6 on, instead of having to wait until level 12 to get a form.

[voodoogroves]

It lets a Pale Master play as a Pale Master from level 6 on, instead of having to wait until level 12 to get a form.

Good to hear.

Common wisdom I've handed out is "don't bother until 12th" ... no real benefits at 6th previously. This at least gives an option.

[Rambin]

I'm not really sure why you think pale masters were underpowered before, or why they would be underpowerd now. I have been playing a pale master for a long time, and have even do a 7 man evon6 with nothing but pale masters (as well as many other all pale master raids and epics). I have been playing the same pale master on lamannia for the past couple of days testing out the new content, and the spell casting changes, and my pale master is still a very potent caster.

Contrary to what has been stated above, Fod and other death spells are not the best asset of a pale master. While they are nice, the heavy bonus to negative energy spells as well as the negative energy spell-like abilities that we get (that cost hp instead of sp) make a pale master a fairly high dps caster that can continue to cast long after all other casters would be out of sp. Also, a pale master with the right gear equipped and a couple of potions can easily boost their enchantment up to 38 (40 with a wiz past life and a bard song) which is more than high enough to hold epic mobs (with the possible exception to a few mobs in chronoscope that have had their resists boosted in this new update).

[vVAnjilaVv]

I'd have to say as it stands now my PM is actually the most powerful capped character I have, and I have quite a few of them of different classes and builds.

The self healing especially if you made an Epic robe on a PM is just sick. Underpowered.....can't agree with that at all. I think PM's are extremely powerful...I can't foretell how the future casting changes will effect them until I actually try them......but it seems like U9 is a global change to basically every class and build in the game......I would hardly say PM's are getting hit harder than everyone else.

[sephiroth1084]

It lets a Pale Master play as a Pale Master from level 6 on, instead of having to wait until level 12 to get a form.

I like that zombie was added to bridge the gap in pale master from 6 to 12, but you seem a little scattered on what it's providing.

You shroud yourself with negative energy and assume many traits of a zombie. While in this form, you hunger for brains, and gain +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -4 Charisma This is decent in the low levels where the difference between high and low DCs isn't too big, but where survivability really matters, and where Ray of Enfeeblement is very likely to totally cripple a caster. It does seem like a fairly steep penalty to tack on a DC penalty, though. I haven't been able to load Lamannia to test it, but I suspect that the survivability enjoyed by Pale Masters from level 12 on will not be the same that this form brings. For one, you have much less SP, no healing on being hit from Lich form, fewer spell slots, and no access to the itemization goodies that really boost PM (even though those are largely only available at level 12 to TRs). Point is, I don't think this needs the Int penalty.

and Damage Reduction 5/Slashing. This should be pretty strong, but isn't much stronger than equipping a couple of items. Worth having? Yes, but not sure the combined package here necessitates the penalties.

Your unarmed damage is increased by two die steps, but you attack 20% slower than normal. Thematically fits, but the extra unarmed damage doesn't outweigh the attack speed penalty. Additionally, the unarmed damage stuff on PM forms makes a monk multiclass interesting, but typically does little or nothing for pure wizards, as the untrained unarmed attack animation is simply too slow to be of any value. And this will necessarily penalize casters using Master's Touch. I think a smaller alacrity penalty, or a penalty to movement speed might be better here.

You have +100% critical hit resistance, are healed by negative energy, and are unaffected by positive energy or repair effects, but take double damage from light effects. You are considered undead rather than your original type for the purposes of most effects. This ability costs 25 spell points to activate. Then again, I suppose getting heavy fortification at level 6 is a pretty big deal, and the immunity to healing is less of a burden in the low levels where you're often not relying on the healing of others anyway.

I guess I just feel like zombie could use a tiny bit more, or less of a penalty.

Really, though, what I'd like to see is two forms for each level of Pale Master, where one gives more defensive benefits and the other enhances spellcasting more. We have this with the new Wraith/Vampire duality at PM II, but lack a spellcasting version at PM I and a defensive version at PM III.

[donfilibuster]

Apparently this form is meant to only be used at lv 6-11.

The lost sp from -2 int at low levels is made up by the form costing 25 instead of 100.
The -1 DC is more of an issue but also not too much weight at low levels.

It is at higher levels where you are effectively handicapped by -2 to int, and you are simply not supposed to use it.

On the other hand, zombie can be used for a multiclass splash of only 6 levels.
You get the self-heal and immunities but suffer from the slow attack speed.
It is clearly made on purpose to be the 'cost' of arcane meeleing and necro monk builds.

[Cyreonx]

Since both forms available at level 12 deal con damage on crits, it would theoretically make it easier to them your foes fail their fort saves, like finger. Though you don't have those spells at level 12 so it doesn't really help at that point anyway. The only to have decent unarmed melee attack sequence/speed, lich form, evasion, and still be a good caster would now be 18/2 wiz/monk. This wouldn't be all that great for meleeing to make wailing/fingering easier, especially if you don't happen to have a pile of divine power clickies.

[Valakai]

I think PMs are better now after Update 9 then before if you are pure and capped. However for us who have multiclassed they are way worse. Vampire does not come close to how good lich is. I did not consider myself OP before and had to explain my build a lot to people who would not accept me into groups.

Now I basically feel shafted. -2 INT, -4 CON (-40hp at level20), -30hp buffer on getting hit proc at about 10% of time (or stacking 3dr)
In return I got +2 STR and 1hp on every hit and 4x vulnerability to incoming light damage. (the quadruple damage is a bit scary really)

Lot of good things in the update but does make my character pretty close to obsolete especially when combined with the fw nerf.