The "new" epic..

[Glenalth]

Did everyone only read the part about generic scrolls and miss the rest of Eladrin's post when he said they would be in 'new' epic content not in existing epic content (for now.)

Can you point me to that? I haven't read anything that would imply there is a change coming and was just assuming everyone was having a mass hallucination.

[Bigrtt]

Downloaded the Lam client just to see the 'new' epic on my monk (who I've spent a long time gearing and building specifically for stunning in epics). Must say I'm not impressed, landing about a third of my stuns whereas on the live servers I'm landing 9/10 stuns I throw. Epic mobs seem harder to hit (putting it down to ship buffs), ki generation really kills us now (and no, stance changes and gear isn't viable for everyone). Not to mention the 50% damage on helpless mobs doesn't work with sneak attacks (and from what I can see, ToD ring burst effects). Barely noticible increase in DPS on helpless mobs I must say.


Honestly, I see this whole thing as a useless change. All that's been done is lowering the trash HP and making it 'harder' to kill them. Why not leave it as it is now? More hp and easier to kill....IMO, this changes nothing but making some peoples characters now semi-useless.

[sephiroth1084]

That sort of what they did for the first epic pack - sands. All the boss fights were revamped to be ultra challenging. Wiz king was especially difficult going in blind.

Why they gave up on that after the first pack I have no idea. VoN1-4 boss fights are all pretty much the same on epic - a joke.
VoN5/VoN6 were revamped, tho on all difficulties and not just epic.

Later epics they got really lazy, nearly nothing changes between difficulties aside from stats. Chronoscope being the most egregious offender in this category. (Really an epic boss fight that only puts 1 player at risk - who can safely be rezzed without consequence - BAH!)

When I first ran the epic quests, I felt like Wiz King, OoB and DQ 1 felt relatively harder than running the same quests at level on elite, while DQ 2 felt about the same as running the raid at level on elite. VoN 1, 3 and 6 felt about the same way. VoN 4 and 5 felt more difficult than running the same quests at level on elite. That is to say, challenging, but not overly so, where solid teamwork and a little planning were usually enough to get through, excluding the 2 last rooms in VoN 3. VoN 2 felt like a joke.

Most of the newer epics are really easy, but I haven't run most of them at level on elite, so I can't say whether they feel the same. Chronoscope feels a little easier on epic than it did on normal at level, but that's largely due to the dramatic difference between running anything at level 6 vs. level 20, more than the quest itself.

Devil Assault feels about the same it always has: a real challenge for its level (well, I did feel this way about DA before epic hit, until I went and soloed it on elite my lvl 18 wizard).

Then again, I wasn't around when the cap was 10 (or 12 or 14) so my experience of running the quests on elite at level is necessarily different.

Can you point me to that? I haven't read anything that would imply there is a change coming and was just assuming everyone was having a mass hallucination.

My reading of Eladrin's comment had me feeling puzzled as to whether he was indicating that existing epics would start dropping generic scrolls (but that existing scrolls wouldn't be changed retroactively), or whether only new (yet to be released) epic content would be dropping generic scrolls.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Ah ha! I was wrong about it being Eladrin. It was stated at PAX and reported by Ironclan, and on the DDO Wiki


http://ddowiki.com/page/PAX_East_2011_Info


Epic Quests

* New ones will give a range similar to the Crystal cove of 20-25, decreasing drop rates, loot tables and difficulty (Since Epics are currently all 25)
* May be applied retroactively to other epics as updates come out.
* Scrolls will be more generic (Scroll of Desert Sands)-Most likely will not be retroactive to prevent flood of Epic items at launch/screw up the economy
* Considering the same for Shard/seals but not sure. Scrolls are the test case.


I admit that it can, and most likely does, mean all scrolls from the launch point of the update in which they do make these changes. I'll eat crow on this one.

However, nothing says that this is for update 9 so there is no reason to assume it would have been.

[Glenalth]

My reading of Eladrin's comment had me feeling puzzled as to whether he was indicating that existing epics would start dropping generic scrolls (but that existing scrolls wouldn't be changed retroactively), or whether only new (yet to be released) epic content would be dropping generic scrolls.

Which post would that be? I'm not seeing anything from Eladrin about scrolls.

[Engar1]

Considering the example and the concern for a rush of epics, I read it as existing scrolls in your inventory will not be *upgraded* while all new pulled scrolls in any epic will be generic.

[TheDearLeader]

Considering the example and the concern for a rush of epics, I read it as existing scrolls in your inventory will not be *upgraded* while all new pulled scrolls in any epic will be generic.

It has been confirmed in multiple instances that the current Lammania build produces Named scrolls. Including Sands and Chronoscope.

[Xaxx]

The Trash Mobs have under 1000 HP, one successful blast of Distengrate at just over 950 points of damage killed most everything in Epic VoN 1, VON 2 was a little different for my Sorc since everything always saved.

I have to say the HP is TOO LOW on the trash mobs that aren not currently making the saves. That's my initial impression.

under a thousand hp for most of the mobs in von 1??? really??? you must have misclicked elite for epic dude. Hp def lowered but atleast give real figures, not exagerated bs.

[mehlinda]

I see nothing epic about 90% of what we already have. I totally agree it needs to be changed and making it playable for more types of builds is good but by definition, " epic" should be very tough and not a guaranteed win. Everytime I read on of these threads or talk to my friends or guildies about their experiences with the " new epic" I begin hearing the Sesame Street song in my head. It is not going the right direction. It won't even be as tough as elite Amrath.

[sirgog]

under a thousand hp for most of the mobs in von 1??? really??? you must have misclicked elite for epic dude. Hp def lowered but atleast give real figures, not exagerated bs.

He said he 3-shotted a (stunned) mob in melee with two Frenzied Berserker crits (~1k damage each) and one hit.

Sounds about right, 2200 hp on the very weakest mobs in the third easiest epic.

Pre-U9, Tiefling Wizards in phase 4 of epic Devil Assault had about 1250hp. Be interesting to see what they have now. (And they were the most dangerous mobs in that phase too).

[Lycurgus]

I messed around in VON1 last night with a pair of WoE Khopeshes and it looks like they retain the resistance to stat damage.

I'm not even sure if good groups are going to need crowd control at all anymore.

I took my wiz/rog into elite Sins of Attrition and epic DQ1, Wiz King and Snitch to get a feel for the changes. Enhancements were placed heavily into ice, with a few points each into repair and fire amplification and the first tier of crit chance. Sins, predictably, remained about the same...still brutal, but no real change in mana consumption. Killing trash in DQ1 and Wiz King was laughable, requiring far fewer casts. One round of ice storm sufficed to knock most everything to <50% health.

Testing out cc with a 42 enchantment dc in Snitch resulted in my rapid death. I didn't run it enough to perform statistical analysis, but I'm not used to seeing saves in there outside of the occasional caster. Saves seemed to occur more frequently, for whatever that's worth in the absence of hard numbers. More damning was the reduced duration of hypno, disco ball, etc.

Given the confluence of reduced trash hit points, the relative inefficiency of cc, and the spike in caster damage, I think the notion of cc has become irrelevant. Melee can beat things up, arcanes can blow things up, and divines can scroll heal while doing the occasional light damage. Cc, and tactics in general, appear to have become not only unnecessary, but inefficient.

[zebidos]

OK I am a newb. How do you hit something for 997 points of slash damage? My level 18 fighter hits for 40-60 and higher crits obviously.

[Shade]

He said he 3-shotted a (stunned) mob in melee with two Frenzied Berserker crits (~1k damage each) and one hit.

Sounds about right, 2200 hp on the very weakest mobs in the third easiest epic.

Pre-U9, Tiefling Wizards in phase 4 of epic Devil Assault had about 1250hp. Be interesting to see what they have now. (And they were the most dangerous mobs in that phase too).

Yep.. Nice thing is the +50% dmg applies instantly for a stunning blow.

So order is:
Stun.
Roll dice. Crit. Multiply.

So i think the rolls were like
Stun attempt = success = roll 19 - 997 dmg
hit 2: roll a 20 : 1k ish
hit 3 roll a 15: 500ish - dead.

The Minotaur pages have like nothing now.. Think about 1k. I killed 1 in a single burning blood, without enhancements, spec, eardweler.. Nothing, jut a regular ole burning blood. Probably could 1 shot them on my orc barb with bard songs, or just a simple damage boost and nice roll.

Angog still has like 40K + . It's possible they didn't change red named.

I dunno about the "third easiest" epic tho. Sure the initial fights are triivial since they lack casters, thus why I chose it to test..

But the 2nd last/final wave with all the kobold casters + minotaur casters is quite tricky for many groups. Well beyond the difficulty of most anything house p presents, and even most of the red fens excluding maybe deeps end fights. More on par with some of the sentinels pack if anything.

[Shade]

OK I am a newb. How do you hit something for 997 points of slash damage? My level 18 fighter hits for 40-60 and higher crits obviously.

Train hard young padawan =)

That or reroll as a barb and wait for U9.

I bet i can break 1200 with full buffs hehe.

[Astraghal]

Downloaded the Lam client just to see the 'new' epic on my monk (who I've spent a long time gearing and building specifically for stunning in epics). Must say I'm not impressed, landing about a third of my stuns whereas on the live servers I'm landing 9/10 stuns I throw. Epic mobs seem harder to hit (putting it down to ship buffs), ki generation really kills us now (and no, stance changes and gear isn't viable for everyone). Not to mention the 50% damage on helpless mobs doesn't work with sneak attacks (and from what I can see, ToD ring burst effects). Barely noticible increase in DPS on helpless mobs I must say.


Honestly, I see this whole thing as a useless change. All that's been done is lowering the trash HP and making it 'harder' to kill them. Why not leave it as it is now? More hp and easier to kill....IMO, this changes nothing but making some peoples characters now semi-useless.

I agree, this really stinks.

My Dwarf Fighter uses Stunning Blow and dual wields Dwarven Axes.

I find that there's just enough of a window to kill a mob in one stun in the current game.

So with stuns no longer putting mobs ino auto-crit, my build got totally nerfed.

I end up losing DPS because stunning isn't as effective anymore and because I use Dwarven Axes instead of Khopesh's.

Now I'm stuck with a toon with useless feats and second rate weapons.

In the last few months they gave us petrifying weapons, Maiming Rocksplitters and Epic Ratkillers, then they went and nerfed what actually made them worth using.

It's like Turbine gives with one hand and takes away with the other.

This is very disappointing.

I'm livid over the fact that the Khopesh just got even better and Melee's in general just got worse. The builds least affected are the one's that were already the most powerful. Epic Sword of Shadow and TWF Khopesh users. The potential to put mobs in auto-crit was the only thing keeping some of the higher critical multiplier weapons viable.

I think it's getting close to time to move on from this game.

[Khellendros13]

I agree, this really stinks.

My Dwarf Fighter uses Stunning Blow and dual wields Dwarven Axes.

I find that there's just enough of a window to kill a mob in one stun in the current game.

So with stuns no longer putting mobs ino auto-crit, my build got totally nerfed.

I end up losing DPS because stunning isn't as effective anymore and because I use Dwarven Axes instead of Khopesh's.

Now I'm stuck with a toon with useless feats and second rate weapons.

In the last few months they gave us petrifying weapons, Maiming Rocksplitters and Epic Ratkillers, then they went and nerfed what actually made them worth using.

It's like Turbine gives with one hand and takes away with the other.

This is very disappointing.

I'm livid over the fact that the Khopesh just got even better and Melee's in general just got worse. The builds least affected are the one's that were already the most powerful. Epic Sword of Shadow and TWF Khopesh users. The potential to put mobs in auto-crit was the only thing keeping some of the higher critical multiplier weapons viable.

I think it's getting close to time to move on from this game.

TR to Barb and you will pretty much stay relevant in any content. Dwarf Barb with uncanny dodge and SF pots is more survivable than a Fighter, with or without UMD for heal scrolls.

Unfortunately raw DPS with some cc thrown in is where we will be for a while.

[sirgog]

Yep.. Nice thing is the +50% dmg applies instantly for a stunning blow.

So order is:
Stun.
Roll dice. Crit. Multiply.

So i think the rolls were like
Stun attempt = success = roll 19 - 997 dmg
hit 2: roll a 20 : 1k ish
hit 3 roll a 15: 500ish - dead.

The Minotaur pages have like nothing now.. Think about 1k. I killed 1 in a single burning blood, without enhancements, spec, eardweler.. Nothing, jut a regular ole burning blood. Probably could 1 shot them on my orc barb with bard songs, or just a simple damage boost and nice roll.

Angog still has like 40K + . It's possible they didn't change red named.

I dunno about the "third easiest" epic tho. Sure the initial fights are triivial since they lack casters, thus why I chose it to test..

But the 2nd last/final wave with all the kobold casters + minotaur casters is quite tricky for many groups. Well beyond the difficulty of most anything house p presents, and even most of the red fens excluding maybe deeps end fights. More on par with some of the sentinels pack if anything.

I think Angog has more than 40k HP. If the servers weren't down I'd test it.

But orange nameds definitely weren't changed by any appreciable amount, someone posted a video of S'Obrien to show off the bugged Savant damage amplification curses - he definitely has more than 65k and less than 72k hp in that video. (~69k on Live by both my testing and Vanshilar's). I assume this means there were no sweeping changes to rednameds.

Anyway, higher mob saves and lower mob HP = faster paced, more chaotic fights. I look forward to doing more testing, but I'd suggest testing the harder epics, not VON1. The first fight of eChrono is definitely harder to solo than it was.

[Shade]

I
Anyway, higher mob saves and lower mob HP = faster paced, more chaotic fights. I look forward to doing more testing, but I'd suggest testing the harder epics, not VON1. The first fight of eChrono is definitely harder to solo than it was.

Well thing is, i don't solo epics (out of preference). So to have any good idea of how much easier they are,, i'd need a group. Hard to come by on lam. Especially a good one.

So I picked von1 just for testing purposes, as im well aquinted with the live version of the quest.

I think Angog has more than 40k HP. If the servers weren't down I'd test it.

Yea probably. I dunno either way, all I know it's somewhere between a *!@(#load and a *!@ton of hitpoints. Probably wasn't reduced, but its hard to be sure.

[Beethoven]

Saves seemed to occur more frequently, for whatever that's worth in the absence of hard numbers. More damning was the reduced duration of hypno, disco ball, etc.

Given the confluence of reduced trash hit points, the relative inefficiency of cc, and the spike in caster damage, I think the notion of cc has become irrelevant. Melee can beat things up, arcanes can blow things up, and divines can scroll heal while doing the occasional light damage. Cc, and tactics in general, appear to have become not only unnecessary, but inefficient.

I highly doubt saves have become more frequent. I seen mobs held and by the time the caster was done switching to a whoo-whoo stick they had broken again already. That is on live under the current (Mod 5-8 system). Mobs always got saves every two seconds or so (depending on the spell). More frequent saves would mean they get to save every second against spells like Mass Hold and I have not seen any indication for that.

It'd probably also help your point if you'd mention what DC the Crowd Control was cast. CC always was ineffective if you did not have a high enough DC. The difference is that on the current game you did not need to spec for it. Casters with only a DC in the high 30s did fine in most epics. Come Update 9 a caster who is not specced for it (ie: hits "only" a DC of 38) will not longer be able to provide with effective CC. You are right.

However, that does not mean CC of a caster specced for it (hitting DC of low to mid 40s) is not going to be effective. Enchanters get Hypno for 1SP which under the new rules gives them a -3 to their Will saves. There is no reason not to cast it. Spell duration has gone down, but as did their hp and melees/offensive casters should be able take care of them faster.

The largest difference I see here is that you have more leeway in group composition. You no longer /need/ a CC specced caster and even if you get one you still /could/ take a damage specced Sorcerer instead of a forth melee.

[Lycurgus]

It'd probably also help your point if you'd mention what DC the Crowd Control was cast. CC always was ineffective if you did not have a high enough DC.

If you check the original post, I stated this was casting with a 42 enchantment dc. Certainly not top tier end game, but more than adequate for most purposes on live. Again, I didn't run it enough times to perform statistical analysis and can only say that I was seeing saves where previously there had been none. Perhaps that was a fluke, perhaps not, it becomes a moot point. If a barbarian is killing an epic mob in 3 hits, there really isn't much need for cc. Sure, you can cast a hypno which breaks before its cool down timer refreshes, and you can throw all of the holds and dancing balls your heart desires. As it stands, though, that seems to be an extremely inefficient use of spell points. From the efficiency stand point, it's far more efficient to simply blow things up.

I agree, this does leave for more leeway in terms of group composition, which is a good thing at face value. In its current implementation on lama, though, there seems to be very much of a dumbing down of the content. Pure dps is king.