Intimidate Useless

[Sanadil]

You buffer should be equal to your size modified intimidate score, multiplied by two if you're using a shield. This counts as "melee" threat, so effects that amplify melee threat apply.

A monster that has been intimidated will not reevaluate targets on its own for at least five seconds. (If someone forces reevaluation, then it will occur as expected.) Monsters that select targets randomly should still target the intimidator.

Intimidate applies one of the following effects after the threat modification occurs:

Intimidating Presence
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 50% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (6 seconds)

Intimidating Presence (Shield)
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 100% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (12 seconds)

So let me see if I have this right. First, an unknown is how threat modifiers really work. What I mean by that is we don't know what makes a +1 to the threat modifier. My assumption would be X amount of damage is equal to Y amount of threat modifier. Without knowing that, its tough to say exactly how long you will hold the monster after a successful intimidate.

In the OP video, my + was 66 on the die roll. That's after size modifications are taken into effect. So my small buffer would be (with a shield on) 2 * 66 = 132. Any extra melee threat % I'm wearing at the time, will increase that number by that percentage. So, if I have 50% extra threat on at the time of the intim, I'd get an extra 66 on top of that 132 for a total of 198 for my buffer.

Will 198 be enough of a buffer, without me doing any damage, to keep aggression over say a barbarian doing average 300-400 damage a swing for 15 seconds? Only time will tell unless we know exactly how much DPS = 1 Threat modification.

[Krag]

A monster that has been intimidated will not reevaluate targets on its own for at least five seconds. (If someone forces reevaluation, then it will occur as expected.) Monsters that select targets randomly should still target the intimidator.

Does that mean the modified intimidate not only remains useful against Lailat but will also work on Arraetrikos?

[Sirea]

Does that mean the modified intimidate not only remains useful against Lailat but will also work on Arraetrikos?

You intim Arraetrikoes?

[Coldin]

Yes, I would almost guarantee it is, as there is no smaller unit to have to base threat upon. I'd also wager that all spells cause at least 1 point of threat on a saving throw, which is how you can get TOD shadow aggro with effects like Glitterdust and Hypnotic pattern.

Threat could be different though. For instance, perhaps Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians actually have a 1:2 damage to threat ration. So their damage would be worth more threat than say a rogue.

Just a thought. It probably is just 1:1, and not some crazy system.

[Lifespawn]

Ok. Um, batman builds. Evasion plate builds. Pajama exploiters. WoP Barbs. Fingerbang Sorcs. Charm Armys. Stunning builds. Dark FoD Monk Builds. (current) Heavy Pick Kensai's. etc. etc. etc.

All of these play off the games inherent errors, and are left behinde since they are built for the now instead of the long haul. The main point is to kill stuff. If you can't, someone else will have to come along and do it.

No offence to these builds, or building outside the box. I've never met a bard who "Diplomacied" the boss to death tho :P

Fighters, in the end, need to kill things. With DPS. Using a tool such as intimi, or shield blocking helps too, I agree. Key word tho, helps. Its like a bard who only buffs...

my intimisorc has 6 large guards and 8 or so little guards that should hit most things is it super dps no but it does a good amount of damage while shield blocking and has taken out sully in vod on elite from the bats spawn to the end solo.

It took about 5 min to do that but after throwing 5 raises and people dying instantly i said screw it and just tanked him to death it was one of the shining moments in the builds history everyone thought we were doomed and everyone wanted to know my build.

I have high con and high cha and never planned on swinging a weapon it's not what the build was built for the 100% buffer from using a shield i hope helps so i can spam some spells and keep aggro.


These kinds of numbers are what the player base needs when they change something so we can actually test and avoid mass hysteria.

Communication is the key

[lugoman]

I would agree with this. It seems to me the goal of these intim changes is not to make turtling up useless but rather to make S&B characters more viable. A lot of the changes in U9 seem geared toward giving S&B characters the middle ground - not as much dps as TWF or THF and not as much defense as a DoS or StD, but a reasonable shot at both. By making intim a threat modifier instead of a separate mechanic that overrides the threat system, it makes aggro management a more streamlined system.

I agree, the devs are trying to get s&b users the middle ground - not the best dps and now not the best tanks. Unfortunately I have yet to see an lfm with 'looking for middle ground toons' in it. They either want dps or tank. If s&b gets the reputation (rightly or wrongly) as not being good tanks then people will hold out for hate tanks and s&b'ers will have a harder time finding teams.

Perception matters in this game. People still think rogues and rangers arent dps and dont contribute.

[sephiroth1084]

We think we've found the problem - the buffer wasn't applying correctly. (In fact, it was zero if the opposing creature was equal or greater in size to you.)


You buffer should be equal to your size modified intimidate score, multiplied by two if you're using a shield. This counts as "melee" threat, so effects that amplify melee threat apply.

Is the intimidate roll affected by the threat bonus gained from a successful intimidate, or does it come before that is applied?

If I'm reading this correctly, it means that a successful intimidate will get you aggro for 5 seconds, and will treat you as having hit the monster with one melee attack for damage=intimidate (or damage=2*intimidate with a shield), and then the remaining 10 seconds until you can intimidate again has to be bridged with enough DPS to cover the difference between your intimidate score in DPS (multiplied by hate) and the highest DPS someone else in the group is generating?

If that's the case then intimiblocking is really and truly dead as there is simply no way to gain 15 seconds' worth of DPS hate while blocking. The suggestion someone made about shield bashing for those who wish to continue to gain their blocking DR, while well intentioned, probably isn't useful since shield bashing is soooo far behind regular DPS as to hardly even matter.

Really, I had hoped for a little more of a buffer, as sometimes you do really need to just grab aggro and block, though in many of those situations no one else is continuing to attack the thing you are intimidating. It also makes it incredibly difficult to grab and hold aggro on a group of monsters if they are continuing to be damage.

Eladrin, after intimidate sets you to the top of the DPS list, do you remain there? That is, let's say the barbarian has 150 hate when you hit intimidate. You go to 150 + buffer. If the barbarian stops attacking, you retain aggro with your 150 + buffer, or do you drop back to your previous hate? Or does it degrade? Can you use just intimidate to hold the aggro of a monster this is no longer being attacked?

Also, are you at all concerned with the fact that, despite having a better intimidate score, fighters will likely end up with less hate from a successful intimidate than paladins, since the paladin will likely have their extra bonus from Divine Righteousness multiplying the value?

It looks like the glancing blows for bastard swords and dwarven axes have finally come into play, and taking Cleave and Great Cleave may actually be somewhat worthwhile for intimitanks.

[Maegin]

my intimisorc has 6 large guards and 8 or so little guards that should hit most things is it super dps no but it does a good amount of damage while shield blocking and has taken out sully in vod on elite from the bats spawn to the end solo.

It took about 5 min to do that but after throwing 5 raises and people dying instantly i said screw it and just tanked him to death it was one of the shining moments in the builds history everyone thought we were doomed and everyone wanted to know my build.

I have high con and high cha and never planned on swinging a weapon it's not what the build was built for the 100% buffer from using a shield i hope helps so i can spam some spells and keep aggro.


These kinds of numbers are what the player base needs when they change something so we can actually test and avoid mass hysteria.

Communication is the key

Heck yeah, thats bad a$$! That shining moment wasn't your goal of the build, correct? No, just a by product of your tools. Very nice tools. You don't log on to face/guard tank everything do you? This is my point. You did your "main" job, but used your tools to help when yu couldnt just dps it, not the other way around.

[sephiroth1084]

You intim Arraetrikoes?

Well, in part 4 if the group is weak you can intimilock him and let people beat on his backside, with him facing away from the healers and such.

In part 5 intimidate does nothing at all.

Eladrin mentioned that creatures with random aggro will pay attention to you when you successfully intimidate, which might mean that the part 4 strategy could be used in part 5. If it's just the 5 seconds at the beginning of an intimidate then this won't mean much, although I can envision a funny scenario with 3 intimitanks who take turns intimidating on a cycle to hold him facing one way...

[quityourjobs]

Threat could be different though. For instance, perhaps Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians actually have a 1:2 damage to threat ration. So their damage would be worth more threat than say a rogue.

Rogues wouldn't need their threat-reduction abilities. This is not the case.

[sephiroth1084]

my intimisorc has 6 large guards and 8 or so little guards that should hit most things is it super dps no but it does a good amount of damage while shield blocking and has taken out sully in vod on elite from the bats spawn to the end solo.

It took about 5 min to do that but after throwing 5 raises and people dying instantly i said screw it and just tanked him to death it was one of the shining moments in the builds history everyone thought we were doomed and everyone wanted to know my build.

I have high con and high cha and never planned on swinging a weapon it's not what the build was built for the 100% buffer from using a shield i hope helps so i can spam some spells and keep aggro.

That's pretty cool, and should be replicable, even with people continuing to beat on Sulu's backside, under the new change so long as you're hitting him with spells. I'd imagine that Earth Savant would be the way to go so you can stack 2 or 3 DoTs on him that bypass most of his elemental resists for big damage.

Speaking of this, though, I am curious whether a successful intimidate would multiply the hate you gain from an effect that was in place before you intimidated... Eladrin, how does intimidate interact with ongoing effects like DoT spells? If you intimidate and then cast the spell, does the hate multiplier affect the whole spell, or just for the 12 seconds of ticks you'd get from intimidating with a shield? What happens if you intimidate in the middle of an ongoing DoT? Do the ticks from that point gain the threat multiplier?

Lifespawn may have an incredibly niche build, but it seems like it would be important to get these interactions down and working in a logical and useful manner.

[Coldin]

Rogues wouldn't need their threat-reduction abilities. This is not the case.

Just an example. We do know all ranged damage generates a lot more threat per damage than melee. Just not sure if that applies to melee, and if threat might be partially determined by class.

[Ralmeth]

The changes look...interesting. For once, I want to hop onto Lammania to test things out.

It looks like the glancing blows for bastard swords and dwarven axes have finally come into play, and taking Cleave and Great Cleave may actually be somewhat worthwhile for intimitanks.

I was thinking the same thing. If this is how things will pan out then Fighter Defenders will excel at tanking groups of mobs via bastard sword or dwarven axe & shield, THF glancing blows, cleave, etc. That could make for an interesting playstyle. Paladin DoS's won't have the feats to spare to do this, so they will be better at hate tanking one opponent at a time. At least that's my guess as to where this will go...

[EKKM]

Wow, thanks for that info Eladrin. So am I reading this correctly, that an intim and block will loose aggro at 12 secs (with 3 secs of cooldown left)?

If so, will their be changes to the SD to allow it to have a functional PRE and mele? Perhaps get a clickie like the Palli's 'Glorious Stand' to make up for the lost blocking AC and DR?

I agree.

I'm having truble seeing SnB fighter retaining aggro without swinging - i.e. shield blocking is useless now unless the mob can be killed in 6 seconds, in which case you better doing DPS anyway.

Stalwart defender will need to be changed as a significant portion of its benfit comes from shield blocking.

[Phax]

Eladrin, after intimidate sets you to the top of the DPS list, do you remain there? That is, let's say the barbarian has 150 hate when you hit intimidate. You go to 150 + buffer. If the barbarian stops attacking, you retain aggro with your 150 + buffer, or do you drop back to your previous hate? Or does it degrade? Can you use just intimidate to hold the aggro of a monster this is no longer being attacked?

The hate does not degrade.

[Coldin]

I'm still wondering. If you have top threat and then intimidate....does that actually put you at your current threat + buffer? Could multiple buffers then be stacked?

[Jendrak]

We will be making bug fixes to U9 before it goes live.

So is this a suedo acknowlegment that intim is broken and will be "fixed" before U9 goes live or just a random catch all statement in an attempt to assure us that everything is ok?

A successful use of the intimidate skill should now set your threat with the monster equal to the highest threat opponent plus a small buffer based on your (size modified) intimidate skill. You should also gain a short duration +50% threat multiplier to all attacks (melee, ranged, and spells) for a short period after successful intimidation that stacks with all other threat modifiers. If you are using a weapon and shield, the buffer and threat multiplier are doubled (and the threat modifier lasts longer).

Intimidate should also be triggering target reevaluation by the monster, and since you're on the top of the monster's threat list, it should turn to you. (Assuming it cares about such things. Most zombies, for instance, have completely random aggro.)

Personally, I don't see the point of re-working something that wasn't broke to begin with but what do i know I'm just the guy paying for it all, but anyway.

If this is what intim is going to be like (if it actually gets fixed) then the obvious questions remain.

1. How are DC's going to work? I.E. Is it the same 70DC for ToD elite with a bonus% based on your 70 intim , will it be the same 70DC with a bonus% based on any intim over 70, will intim DC's be re-worked as well, etc.....

2. Since you will have to be DPS'ing as well as intiming to hold agro will SD and DoS get a re-work since this change renders the blocking DR and AC completly useless for any tanking duties?

As many builds are based on how things fuction in game these need to be made public to the community since it affects such a wide array of builds that people have spent serious time getting geard correctly.

[sephiroth1084]

The hate does not degrade.

Excellent! Thanks, Phax! But, when did you start responding to 'Eladrin'? Does Eladrin know about this?

T
I was thinking the same thing. If this is how things will pan out then Fighter Defenders will excel at tanking groups of mobs via bastard sword or dwarven axe & shield, THF glancing blows, cleave, etc. That could make for an interesting playstyle. Paladin DoS's won't have the feats to spare to do this, so they will be better at hate tanking one opponent at a time. At least that's my guess as to where this will go...

That's probably where I'll end up on my paladin. I use 2-handers a lot of the time, but the glancing blows without feats are too low to matter for this sort of thing.

I agree.

I'm having truble seeing SnB fighter retaining aggro without swinging - i.e. shield blocking is useless now unless the mob can be killed in 6 seconds, in which case you better doing DPS anyway.

Guards may help, but I'd imagine that you would need a veritable ****ton in order to retain aggro.

Stalwart defender will need to be changed as a significant portion of its benfit comes from shield blocking.

I think they could use a slight boost, but I disagree that shield blocking was a big portion of the PrE. Their higher potential AC than DoS paladins and standing 6/- DR are a lot more significant in my estimation.

[quityourjobs]

We do know all ranged damage generates a lot more threat per damage than melee.

Do we know that?

Personally, I don't see the point of re-working something that wasn't broke to begin with but what do i know I'm just the guy paying for it all, but anyway.

I would say, based on the number of LFGs I see requesting intimidate-focused tanks (zero) that it's broken in the larger context of the game.

[Eladrin]

Could it have really been just the buffer? From testing, Intimidate did not grab aggro at all. If it was just the buffer, I would expect to still have the top threat for that monster.

You would end up tied with the other player, and the monster would stick with their original target.

Try it against kobolds, and it'll work (though the buffer will still be much smaller than it should be).

Yes, thanks for the clarification. I understand the goal appears to be to make S&B a viable strategy, but what does this do to shield-blocking characters? Are we going to be able to maintain aggro without dealing damage?

If your allies are attacking the monster, it'll be difficult to retain aggro while standing there shield-blocking, unless your DPS are taking some of the burden of threat management onto themselves. (Which we find desirable, by the way!)

If you intimidate a monster and people aren't attacking it, it will stay on you indefinitely now. (You're actually on top of the threat list instead of just being temporarily on top.) This could be useful in some situations.

If you intimidate a monster and then the former target uses diplomacy, your coordination will be paid off with a significantly larger threat buffer. DPS can also use Bluff to enable sneak attacks and reduce their personal threat contribution.

Odds are, however, that if you intimidate a monster and then attack while you have your threat multipliers active you'll have the best chance of holding the monster for an extended period of time.

Not sure if damage is really a 1:1 ratio to threat.

By default, damage is a 1:1 ratio to threat.

Does that mean the modified intimidate not only remains useful against Lailat but will also work on Arraetrikos?

Rarely, some monsters are scripted to occasionally select a second target for certain actions. Intimidate will not prevent these "off main target" attacks.

The hate does not degrade.

Isn't that Khyber's motto?