Intimidate Useless

[Tirisha]

If you think holding down the shift key in more than specialized situations (your tank died, horoth stunned you, etc) is fun, you are clearly in a small minority that both doesn't include many players and doesn't include the development team.

I couldn't be gladder that intimiblock is dead, and I used to do it: its ****ant boring and noninteractive, and its demise will improve tanking on this game tenfold. going forward.

I'm sry that you feel because we are the minority we shouldn't be able to play the game the way we choice.

For many of us (I like to think the majority) this game is based on variety in character builds to the most extreme extents.

Pigeon holing every melee into rolling hate tanks or dps is not a step forward sry it is a very big step backwards

[Zuldar]

I agree that we need more content where AC is helpful, but tanks (or at least some tanks) have other advantages. I know I, for example, rarely even have to dodge the firebreath in Chrono anymore with firestorm greaves and a 43 reflex save, even without evasion.

I agree there isn't enough distinction between fighter tanks and barbs/kensai/etc, however: most of my advantages are paladin features.

And I'd really like to see more situations where I c are about my ac, certainly. But you have to do this in steps: making tanking work properly is a good precursor to making more content it works in. The way 'tank' characters have worked has been degenerate for a long time, and you need look no further than those 80 intim lailat tanks who are utterly useless at everything else to see how its helpful for them to redesign the systems before they design the quests.

Hmm perhaps tie the cooldown on intimidate with your ac, say -1 second per 10 ac? That'd make it a bit better.

[Sanadil]

Agreed Sigtrent. As it stands, everything people are talking about now is all just personal opinion and speculation stating what they believe the devs are trying to accomplish. Only the dev's know that.

My personal opinion, they are taking away a viable thing, that was truly enjoyed by some people.

Lots of people don't like that thing, and feel we should play a specific way as recent posts show.

Only the devs can really make the decisions on what things we should do.

[Sanadil]

...
Pigeon holing every melee into rolling hate tanks or dps is not a step forward sry it is a very big step backwards

^^ Agreed

[IronClan]

Basically, Junts plays in a make-pretend version of DDO where all players share a hive mind, and act perfectly at all times, allowing the "new intim" to always work properly with groups of mobs.

I hate to say it but I too wonder what game he's playing... I wont go as far as you, but I will say, perhaps his experience (maybe guild runs mostly?) is not representative of the average tactics in a pug or partial pug...

I would submit that perhaps Turbine is suffering from a similar "idealized" idea of how the game is actually played... Maybe that happens in the office only groups, or in Junts groups... but it sure aint normal in 99% of the rest of the game.

Trying to force intricate tactics on pugs is just going to lead to "bring 6 healers and brute force heal through it" (or only do it massively overlevel) tactics just like everything else.

Turbine should be coming up with MORE content that a AC intimi tank can help do and be effective in... not finding a way to Deepwoods sniperize them.

[Junts]

One other thing . . . is if you happen to die you'll at least be able to get aggro back.



Got it . . . I see what your saying and I'm cautiously optimistic that Turbine might knock some of the stupid out of the end-game. If this is the start of a larger plan it might be better but we don't know the full context.

The main problem for them is creating tanking situations where there are two radically different and incompatible approaches to tanking - how do you make it work for both modes?

Now they only have to make it work for one mode, so they can be a lot more creative about it. They're free to start making raid bosses that are a lot more punitive if they pull off tank, etc.

[Junts]

I hate to say it but I too wonder what game he's playing... I wont go as far as you, but I will say, perhaps his experience (maybe guild runs mostly?) is not representative of the average tactics in a pug or partial pug...

I would submit that perhaps Turbine is suffering from a similar "idealized" idea of how the game is actually played... Maybe that happens in the office only groups, or in Junts groups... but it sure aint normal in 99% of the rest of the game.

Trying to force intricate tactics on pugs is just going to lead to "bring 6 healers and brute force heal through it" (or only do it massively overlevel) tactics just like everything else.

Turbine should be coming up with MORE content that a AC intimi tank can help do and be effective in... not finding a way to Deepwoods sniperize them.

I just can't remember the last time intimidating more than a couple mobs mattered. We don't tank trash mob packs on DDO. There is no need to do so. We web/hold/etc those mobs.

What 'groups of monsters' are you guys worrie dabout intimidating and breaking off? This stuff is for single-target tanking.

[Sanadil]

I just can't remember the last time intimidating more than a couple mobs mattered. We don't tank trash mob packs on DDO. There is no need to do so. We web/hold/etc those mobs.

What 'groups of monsters' are you guys worrie dabout intimidating and breaking off? This stuff is for single-target tanking.

Translation:

I just can't remember the last time intimidating more than a couple mobs mattered. I don't tank trash mob packs on DDO. There is no need to do so. I web/hold/etc those mobs.

Don't assume everybody plays the way you do, or that your way is the only way.

EDIT - don't get me wrong, I play the same way, I'm just trying to point out its not the only way, and there are people out there that don't use the web/hold methods.

EDIT 2 - Just realized the time, would love to continue to banter, but I have to run, time to go hooooommmeeeee

[grodon9999]

The main problem for them is creating tanking situations where there are two radically different and incompatible approaches to tanking - how do you make it work for both modes?

They've already done it, it's called Horoth. He's a challenge for both types of tanks right now, way moreso than "Vultron Devil" who's attack chain happens to be timed exactly the same as the cooldown of a heal-scroll and doesn't have true-seeing.

Now they only have to make it work for one mode, so they can be a lot more creative about it. They're free to start making raid bosses that are a lot more punitive if they pull off tank, etc.

They've already done it, it's called Horoth

Deja Vu . . .

[Junts]

They've already done it, it's called Horoth. He's a challenge for both types of tanks right now, way moreso than "Vultron Devil" who's attack chain happens to be timed exactly the same as the cooldown of a heal-scroll and doesn't have true-seeing.



They've already done it, it's called Horoth

Deja Vu . . .

The fact that there is one quest where this is true does not mean that it can apply to every encounter in a way that is interesting.

[shrades72]

If you think holding down the shift key in more than specialized situations (your tank died, horoth stunned you, etc) is fun, you are clearly in a small minority that both doesn't include many players and doesn't include the development team.

I couldn't be gladder that intimiblock is dead, and I used to do it: its ****ant boring and noninteractive, and its demise will improve tanking on this game tenfold. going forward.

Count me also in the "small minority". Holding shift and timing a button press every 6 seconds is no more boring than holding down a mouse button until the mob dies...

My mains have always been tanks. Although I'm in twf dps mode 99% of the time, the 1% when intimi-blocking is beneficial is what that I feel defines my characters. Without this 1%, I may as well swap out my Defender PrE for Kensai (like most of the other fighters on the server...)

Please don't remove this 1%.

[grodon9999]

The fact that there is one quest where this is true does not mean that it can apply to every encounter in a way that is interesting.

Correct, but it shows that it can be done and they've got an idea to build off of.

[sigtrent]

I just can't remember the last time intimidating more than a couple mobs mattered. We don't tank trash mob packs on DDO. There is no need to do so. We web/hold/etc those mobs.

What 'groups of monsters' are you guys worrie dabout intimidating and breaking off? This stuff is for single-target tanking.

Orathons in VOD would be one example, most groups I know group tank them and its much less chaotic that way.

But in normal quests... I intim groups frequently in order to not have more squishy party members die, to conserve healing, to increase rogue DPS etc...

Yes, if everyone in your party are well expereinced twinked characters... and you are esentially group soloing quests, its pointless. But in pug land or just playing in challenging quests, there are plenty of good reasons to tank trash.

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, after reading over all of this, my three intimitanks are now completely useless. None relied on AC because the gear is too hard to get, consumes too many slots and the sacrifice to DPS was too high:

* A Cleric-based intimitank that used her Aura, Bursts and quickened Heals to ensure only she'd be the one needing healing, with Masses if splash damage hit the group. No point now - no way for her to hold aggro with Intimidate being broken and the cooldown extended.
The new light damage DOT may be enough to keep this as a reasonable strategy. The eventual release of the other two cleric PrEs might help this strategy.

* A Sorc-based situational intimitank, using DR and quickened Reconstruct to hold aggro in emergencies (and being able to do so even in situations where healing curses fly around), as well as being a surprisingly potent Orthon tank. Considering Devils are immune to Firewall, she can't hold aggro that way. Adding an electric DoT only partially helps - as a Fire Savant (for +6 Intim), the DPS of it will be pitiful. Don't go fire. Sure, it has more intimidate, but if your intimidate was high enough to grab the stuff before, your concern should be about the damage. You now have access to some excellent damage from acid DoTs, better cold DoTs, an electric DoT and much cheaper AoE instant damage. If your concern is tanking in devil-heavy content, don't go fire savant (which would be kind of foolish anyway if you were running a lot of devil content as most of your benefits would be wasted).

So where's the three +3 Lesser Hearts I'm going to need to rid them of their now useless capabilities? I'm waiting.

The problem with intimitanking before was that it took everything else out of the equation. It didn't matter what your party members were doing, or what the boss was doing (for the most part), or whether you had any offensive ability at all, or if the healing in your group was weak or strong, or even how many dangerous targets there were. You just pick up a shield, hold block and hit a button every six seconds. It's incredibly difficult to design content that allows for tanking when there are characters out there who can basically tank while ignoring every subtlety of the game.

In regular questing, it meant that a rogue paired with an intimitank had to make no effort whatsoever to mitigate their own hate. Nor the barbarian, kensai or caster. It meant that even unlikely characters, like your sorcerer, could sit and intimidate and hold aggro with little to no danger to themselves, and absolutely no real strategy involved. That is incredibly problematic from a design standpoint. How do you challenge a party built around an intimitank?

There's a little design space, which the devs seem to have been using in ToD and Chrono, where either you may get stunned and lose aggro, or will have to move suddenly and expose yourself to other attacks in order to avoid massive spell damage, but, in the case of Horoth tanking at least, the stun only really serves to punish everyone else for relying on you, and without any strategic concerns on your (the tank's) part: if you miss an intimidate due to an untimely stun, it is everyone else in the group that is in trouble when Horoth turns around, not you. Then it's a crapshoot as to whether that even has any noticeable effect upon the raid or not: if he uses a Disintegrate during those 1-6 seconds you don't have him locked, it's a big deal; if he lands a badge or two it's kind of a big deal; if he just gets off a few melee attacks, if it's normal, it probably isn't a big deal, if it's elite it likely is. In any case, you aren't being punished. There really isn't anything you could have done to prevent it from happening, nothing the party could have done, of any real significance, and your role will continue as it had before things started going sideways.

Then there's the fact that death tends to mean absolutely nothing to an intimitank. You die, for whatever reason, get back up, and immediately resume doing exactly what you were doing before. Was it useful to us to be able to hop right back in and save the day after dying? Sure, but it wasn't especially interesting from a design perspective, and, again, doesn't allow for a lot of room for challenge.

Finally, intimidate previously didn't work at all with threat tanking. You could use intimidate to grab initial aggro, but if you didn't build enough threat to surpass everyone else in those 6 seconds aggro was going back. Many defender builds either intimitank or threat tank, because the two strategies don't work together. The +6 intimidate that Stalwarts get often goes completely to waste, while the rest of the time the passive DR 6/- goes to waste (along with all the feats and enhancements fighters have available to them to improve DPS, because people are only using 1/2 of their character.

I agree that this change really only will end up being a good change if it allows the devs to redesign our endgame to make AC threat tanking viable and useful in more places. If the game remains the way it is currently, then, sure, losing intimitanking will have been a rather pointless blow, but I don't expect that to be the case.

[IronClan]

If you think holding down the shift key in more than specialized situations (your tank died, horoth stunned you, etc) is fun, you are clearly in a small minority that both doesn't include many players and doesn't include the development team.

I couldn't be gladder that intimiblock is dead, and I used to do it: its ****ant boring and noninteractive, and its demise will improve tanking on this game tenfold. going forward.

Well I'm glad your hate tank and the Developers all agree on whats fun for other people who planned out different builds than yours and maybe have differing experences in pug groups than the rather fabulous, super duper coordinated ones you always find yourself in.

Path of least resistance says, DPS builds with hate gear just got a nice buff, that will eliminate S&B DoS and Stalwart's and one person with 90 AC Intimitank who has highly coordinated runs as a rule, doesn't care.

Que part where you turn this into you versus "shield blocking zero DPS gimps"

I hate this change and the only time I shield block is when my AC is doing nothing and the healer needs to catch up, or we need to hold off damaging the boss or other tactical reasons (tripped etc.)... It's still an awful change, in any realsitic non idealized version of the game... But by all means make this a narrative about your toon, versus all the shield blockers with zero DPS.

[Junts]

The problem with intimitanking before was that it took everything else out of the equation. It didn't matter what your party members were doing, or what the boss was doing (for the most part), or whether you had any offensive ability at all, or if the healing in your group was weak or strong, or even how many dangerous targets there were. You just pick up a shield, hold block and hit a button every six seconds. It's incredibly difficult to design content that allows for tanking when there are characters out there who can basically tank while ignoring every subtlety of the game.

In regular questing, it meant that a rogue paired with an intimitank had to make no effort whatsoever to mitigate their own hate. Nor the barbarian, kensai or caster. It meant that even unlikely characters, like your sorcerer, could sit and intimidate and hold aggro with little to no danger to themselves, and absolutely no real strategy involved. That is incredibly problematic from a design standpoint. How do you challenge a party built around an intimitank?

There's a little design space, which the devs seem to have been using in ToD and Chrono, where either you may get stunned and lose aggro, or will have to move suddenly and expose yourself to other attacks in order to avoid massive spell damage, but, in the case of Horoth tanking at least, the stun only really serves to punish everyone else for relying on you, and without any strategic concerns on your (the tank's) part: if you miss an intimidate due to an untimely stun, it is everyone else in the group that is in trouble when Horoth turns around, not you. Then it's a crapshoot as to whether that even has any noticeable effect upon the raid or not: if he uses a Disintegrate during those 1-6 seconds you don't have him locked, it's a big deal; if he lands a badge or two it's kind of a big deal; if he just gets off a few melee attacks, if it's normal, it probably isn't a big deal, if it's elite it likely is. In any case, you aren't being punished. There really isn't anything you could have done to prevent it from happening, nothing the party could have done, of any real significance, and your role will continue as it had before things started going sideways.

Then there's the fact that death tends to mean absolutely nothing to an intimitank. You die, for whatever reason, get back up, and immediately resume doing exactly what you were doing before. Was it useful to us to be able to hop right back in and save the day after dying? Sure, but it wasn't especially interesting from a design perspective, and, again, doesn't allow for a lot of room for challenge.

Finally, intimidate previously didn't work at all with threat tanking. You could use intimidate to grab initial aggro, but if you didn't build enough threat to surpass everyone else in those 6 seconds aggro was going back. Many defender builds either intimitank or threat tank, because the two strategies don't work together. The +6 intimidate that Stalwarts get often goes completely to waste, while the rest of the time the passive DR 6/- goes to waste (along with all the feats and enhancements fighters have available to them to improve DPS, because people are only using 1/2 of their character.

I agree that this change really only will end up being a good change if it allows the devs to redesign our endgame to make AC threat tanking viable and useful in more places. If the game remains the way it is currently, then, sure, losing intimitanking will have been a rather pointless blow, but I don't expect that to be the case.

This.

[Tirisha]

The problem with intimitanking before was that it took everything else out of the equation. It didn't matter what your party members were doing, or what the boss was doing (for the most part), or whether you had any offensive ability at all, or if the healing in your group was weak or strong, or even how many dangerous targets there were. You just pick up a shield, hold block and hit a button every six seconds. It's incredibly difficult to design content that allows for tanking when there are characters out there who can basically tank while ignoring every subtlety of the game.

In regular questing, it meant that a rogue paired with an intimitank had to make no effort whatsoever to mitigate their own hate. Nor the barbarian, kensai or caster. It meant that even unlikely characters, like your sorcerer, could sit and intimidate and hold aggro with little to no danger to themselves, and absolutely no real strategy involved. That is incredibly problematic from a design standpoint. How do you challenge a party built around an intimitank?

There's a little design space, which the devs seem to have been using in ToD and Chrono, where either you may get stunned and lose aggro, or will have to move suddenly and expose yourself to other attacks in order to avoid massive spell damage, but, in the case of Horoth tanking at least, the stun only really serves to punish everyone else for relying on you, and without any strategic concerns on your (the tank's) part: if you miss an intimidate due to an untimely stun, it is everyone else in the group that is in trouble when Horoth turns around, not you. Then it's a crapshoot as to whether that even has any noticeable effect upon the raid or not: if he uses a Disintegrate during those 1-6 seconds you don't have him locked, it's a big deal; if he lands a badge or two it's kind of a big deal; if he just gets off a few melee attacks, if it's normal, it probably isn't a big deal, if it's elite it likely is. In any case, you aren't being punished. There really isn't anything you could have done to prevent it from happening, nothing the party could have done, of any real significance, and your role will continue as it had before things started going sideways.

Then there's the fact that death tends to mean absolutely nothing to an intimitank. You die, for whatever reason, get back up, and immediately resume doing exactly what you were doing before. Was it useful to us to be able to hop right back in and save the day after dying? Sure, but it wasn't especially interesting from a design perspective, and, again, doesn't allow for a lot of room for challenge.

Finally, intimidate previously didn't work at all with threat tanking. You could use intimidate to grab initial aggro, but if you didn't build enough threat to surpass everyone else in those 6 seconds aggro was going back. Many defender builds either intimitank or threat tank, because the two strategies don't work together. The +6 intimidate that Stalwarts get often goes completely to waste, while the rest of the time the passive DR 6/- goes to waste (along with all the feats and enhancements fighters have available to them to improve DPS, because people are only using 1/2 of their character.

I agree that this change really only will end up being a good change if it allows the devs to redesign our endgame to make AC threat tanking viable and useful in more places. If the game remains the way it is currently, then, sure, losing intimitanking will have been a rather pointless blow, but I don't expect that to be the case.

A well geared/built tank should be able to take and hold aggro regardless of the folly of his party members. this is not a problem. You have to sacrifice a great deal too pull it off so there should be reward shouldn't there?

Edit:
The fact is intim tanking in no means breaks the game. *how many lfms do you see waiting for one? In sarlona only the occasional (but certainly not the majority) HOX. It is a fun mechanic for some of us and should not be removed imo.

[Cyr]

Well I'm glad your hate tank and the Developers all agree on whats fun for other people who planned out different builds than yours and maybe have differing experences in pug groups than the rather fabulous, super duper coordinated ones you always find yourself in.

Path of least resistance says, DPS builds with hate gear just got a nice buff, that will eliminate S&B DoS and Stalwart's and one person with 90 AC Intimitank who has highly coordinated runs as a rule, doesn't care.

Que part where you turn this into you versus "shield blocking zero DPS gimps"

I hate this change and the only time I shield block is when my AC is doing nothing and the healer needs to catch up, or we need to hold off damaging the boss or other tactical reasons (tripped etc.)... It's still an awful change, in any realsitic non idealized version of the game... But by all means make this a narrative about your toon, versus all the shield blockers with zero DPS.

I'm not sure you have fully evaluated the changes based upon your comments here. The new version of the shield feats are remarkably better then the previous versions. So much so that for the first time in years I am seriously considering using a shield (and taking a feat) on a few of my builds. An effective stacking 6/- DR against anything that hits for 30 damage a swing is pretty dang impressive.

[shrades72]

... It's incredibly difficult to design content that allows for tanking when there are characters out there who can basically tank while ignoring every subtlety of the game... How do you challenge a party built around an intimitank?

You make it sound like you think intimitanking is overpowered in its current state. Do you really believe that?

[Ironforge_Clan]

I'm not sure you have fully evaluated the changes based upon your comments here. The new version of the shield feats are remarkably better then the previous versions. So much so that for the first time in years I am seriously considering using a shield (and taking a feat) on a few of my builds. An effective stacking 6/- DR against anything that hits for 30 damage a swing is pretty dang impressive.

QFT...posted another thread regarding my testing. I like the changes since it makes AC feel almost useful again.