Intimidate Useless

[tihocan]

If your allies are attacking the monster, it'll be difficult to retain aggro while standing there shield-blocking

It won't be "difficult", it will be impossible. Even with a huge intimidate score and some nice melee threat enhancement, your buffer will be under 300. Any slightly dps-oriented character can do more than 300 damage in 15s.

You just killed the good old intimidate+shield-blocking, and ruined my next character idea... Good job removing options from the players (it was nice to have a way to contribute to the party that was not directly related to inflicting damage).

[Tirisha]

(Or do you think Horoth is going to start throwing down the new power word kill with no hip point cap to restore his hp?)

lol That would be awesome, he'd have to maliciously dispel your DW first I think you should held the Turbine team script some AI

[Tirisha]

Any chance Turbine's gonna give us a free respec so we can turn our stalwart defenders into khopesh wielding Kensai hate tanks?

[Necrological]

Nope, it wasn't. There are/were issues which raised many a ruckus. For most all trash, it was though.

oh really, i think otherwise. I had no problems with intim messing up on me at all. unless you count the lagspikes that occur once in a while during play.

[Missing_Minds]

To be honest, I really don't like these kind of "monsters wouldn't act that way" arguments. First, what kind of monster with an int of 6 would go anywhere near a city with a few tens of thousands of adventurers?
I believe you just answered you own question.

And second, if the monster was going to attack anyone, it would be the healer keeping everyone else alive, then the casters causing the dps spikes, and then mop up the melees. After all, that's the general rule in a tough quest - kill the casters first.

Is this the same int 6 monster you started with?

And guess what, they do target casters first. You have everyone run into the room at the same time. It normally is casters first. Or as I like to ***** about. Bard in the back room is prime target, ignore the people right in front of you. Bards have a huge amount of on smell/sight agro.

Body pulling? Casters are normally out of sight so agro gets established so that the puller is prime, not caster in back otu of sight (bard being the exception.)

Most cases it is melees run in and tag/kill/intimidate such that agro is on them before casters show up so casters are on the bottom of the rung, and the damage output of DPS was normally so high at this stage the caster either 1 shots or didn't do enough to get agro.

Add in the fact of a "broken" (my opinion) hate que that pre set actions MUST be finished first before moving to the new target. This on average seems to be 2 to 4 attacks before the threat changes targets. Normally by that time period, trash is dead so agro never jumped to the caster any way.

oh really, i think otherwise. I had no problems with intim messing up on me at all. unless you count the lagspikes that occur once in a while during play.

Feel free to. Just know that there are others that will disagree with you while Sally (aka Sulumedes) loves you for your thinking.

[grodon9999]

Any chance Turbine's gonna give us a free respec so we can turn our stalwart defenders into khopesh wielding Kensai hate tanks?

As a dual-khopesh wielding hate-tank, you're still better off as a Stalwart defender. Just don't waste any skill point on intim.

[dunklezhan]

Bard in the back room is prime target, ignore the people right in front of you. Bards have a huge amount of on smell/sight agro.

.

That's not just me? My static group used to joke about the bardic aftershave I must be wearing when mobs would run straight past the maul wielding kensai who just clobbered them, past the cleric spamming heals and head straight for me who was just standing there looking freaking awesome thankyou very much.

Good to know I wasn't actually doing anything wrong. Except, obviously, looking freaking awesome.

[Tirisha]

The S&B intim just lost the ability to get more than one mobs agrro... (any mob he doesn't do DPS to even if the intim skill check succeeded, will wander off and agro on someone else)

This seems to be one of those developer disconnect, changes, they think they're buffing S&B, but what they're really doing is eliminating the rather small niche where it was able to shine AT ALL. Tanking a couple end game raids (non epic of course), was all S&B had... now it doesn't even have that.

The "Hate tank" that already uses TWF (Or THF) is getting a huge buff if they use or adopt the intim skill (if they didn't already have it for trash); while the S&B tank's "niche" is being eliminated. TWF build can take the same PrE's (or even better, they can take a DPS PrE and then gear for the + incite and DPS, where the AC S&B is using nearly every slots for AC gear).

So the few nitches where everyone was happy there was a S&B Intimitank (where multiple mobs could be intimidated by him, and his AC would help him to survive) have been removed, because while he swings and tries desperately to keep one or two mobs agro, the other mobs will just agro onto someone else. Effectively making the S&B playstyle (in those niches) no longer contribute to the party, except on Bosses... but bosses often hit S&B AC.... Making the AC fairly useless (and thus the only reason to wear a shield or take those PrE's becomes useless). Ergo: Might as well go full hate tank. and "all in" DPS Ergo: DoS and SD = Deepwoods sniper.

Before: 5-6 Intimidated Orthons all tried to kill the S&B tank. Who could be Turtling or like mine can be hitting back with okay DPS (+4 Holy Burst Silver Warhammer of PG + Zeal + Swashbuckler's 6% double strike + Smites...) while not being hit much because of the added AC of the shield (making the healers job easier, and keeping the tank useful, doing some DPS and also surviving).

After: 1-2 out of 5-6 Intimed Orthons stay agro'ed on the Tank, the others switch agro because they are not being DPS'ed. S&B contribution to party = nothing a DPS couldn't have done

This isn't about eliminating zero DPS shield blockers... it's about eliminating a valid useful nitch for S&B... the ONLY NICHE'S IN THE ENTIRE GAME where even "elitist" players expected you to pull a shield out. Now the Tank must do good DPS on ALL of those Orthons and manage to keep hitting them, or he will end up with only 1 or 2 of them... With a 15 second cooldown...

I can get 1 or 2 Orthons Agro with ZERO INTIM SKILL... So with all that said: Why waste the build points on Int for CE and skill points, and Dex for AC mod? why waste skill points on Intim? Why bother with the "Defender of Siberys" and Stalwart Defender PrE's? Just take a DPS PrE like everyone else... Because sameness and uniformity is fun.

(more importantly it's easier for the WoW crowd to figure out, which is obviously the direction Turbine is herding the game towards).

Knight of the Challis is now my former DoS Paladin's new PrE... no point is being a Defender of Siberys unless it's a hate tank build. Even then DoS will be a waste of enhancement points, as a Hate tank doesn't need AC in nearly every slot, so they can get +10 Incite (Hate gen) dragontouched runes, and other gear, and not need a shield etc.. So they can get better DPS gear and that will further increase their advantage with the new "hate based" intimidate.

Might as well pick up Khopesh feat while I'm respeccing, as I no longer need a feat slot for Combat Expertise. Might as well splash 2 monk and wear Pajamas and swing Khopeshes, which is obviously what the Devs of this game want everyone to do...

Or *yawn* maybe I'll just find something else to do.

This^

All this change is doing is destroying character options and versatility while making hate tanking noobishly, stupidly easy (retaining aggro part) I hate tank on my Elf Wis build monk all the time with zero incite and have no issues when the party is coordinated enough to give me a 40 second lead in and break for trash.

[Tirisha]

As a dual-khopesh wielding hate-tank, you're still better off as a Stalwart defender. Just don't waste any skill point on intim.

the stalwart defender 50% hate doesn't work. so all you really gain from it is some AC which is worthless in epics.

[Necrological]

Feel free to. Just know that there are others that will disagree with you while Sally (aka Sulumedes) loves you for your thinking.

heh, Sully does love my thinking, which is why he dies every single time i tank him.

[grodon9999]

the stalwart defender 50% hate doesn't work. so all you really gain from it is some AC which is worthless in epics.

Yes it does, was fixed a few updates ago. You get additional AC and HP from Stalwart stance. STR to but not as much as power surge.

AC being worthless in epics is an entirely different issue that hopefully Turbine will fix when they stop taking stupid pills.

[TheDearLeader]

This^

All this change is doing is destroying character options and versatility while making hate tanking noobishly, stupidly easy (retaining aggro part) I hate tank on my Elf Wis build monk all the time with zero incite and have no issues when the party is coordinated enough to give me a 40 second lead in and break for trash.

40 Second lead in?

As opposed to a real threat tank, that would say "Okay, get in here" in less than a five count?

Any devil boss in game.
WF Paladin
Holy Sword Greatsword
WF Brute Fighting IV Enabled
Divine Righteousness
DT Armor with Incite 10%/Crushing Wave Guard/Incite 20%
KotC OR DoS

Honestly, the above list is absolute overkill, and the most it takes is a little bit of Reaver's Refuge farming.

As a Human 34-point TWF KotC, with Intimidate as a side hobby of mine, I've been Hate Tank, Off Tank, Blocking intimitank, combat intimitank... I've tanked just about every boss in the game but Epic Lailat and Elite Xyzzy.

From that, I can tell you right now - a real "threat tank" or "intimitank", someone who is truly good at it, takes a lot of investment, be it feats, enhancements, or items, or some combination of the three. Don't discount either route as trivial. Certainly, I know at least one guildie that's going to be pleased by the possibility of a Hybrid of the two.

[grodon9999]

From that, I can tell you right now - a real "threat tank" or "intimitank", someone who is truly good at it, takes a lot of investment, be it feats, enhancements, or items, or some combination of the three. Don't discount either route as trivial. Certainly, I know at least one guildie that's going to be pleased by the possibility of a Hybrid of the two.

So true, what's really amusing is every barbarian out there think they're a "hate-tank."

[TheDearLeader]

So true, what's really amusing is every barbarian out there think they're a "hate-tank."

And they absolutely are *not*.

I actually thanked one last night that really truly was a threat tank. Allowed aforementioned Pally of mine to do his thing in VoD without (too much) holding back.

[~Tago_Bane]

Yes it does, was fixed a few updates ago. You get additional AC and HP from Stalwart stance. STR to but not as much as power surge.

AC being worthless in epics is an entirely different issue that hopefully Turbine will fix when they stop taking stupid pills.

are you sure? it's till in the known issues

[PresentTense]

Is this the same int 6 monster you started with?

And guess what, they do target casters first. You have everyone run into the room at the same time. It normally is casters first. Or as I like to ***** about. Bard in the back room is prime target, ignore the people right in front of you. Bards have a huge amount of on smell/sight agro.

Body pulling? Casters are normally out of sight so agro gets established so that the puller is prime, not caster in back otu of sight (bard being the exception.)

Most cases it is melees run in and tag/kill/intimidate such that agro is on them before casters show up so casters are on the bottom of the rung, and the damage output of DPS was normally so high at this stage the caster either 1 shots or didn't do enough to get agro.

Add in the fact of a "broken" (my opinion) hate que that pre set actions MUST be finished first before moving to the new target. This on average seems to be 2 to 4 attacks before the threat changes targets. Normally by that time period, trash is dead so agro never jumped to the caster any way.

Ignoring your amusing stab at me, when I see Suulo going at a healbot cleric with the same single-minded fury he currently reserves for a hate tank or intimitank, I'll buy this. Targeting casters first != killing casters first.

[grodon9999]

are you sure? it's till in the known issues

How can one be entirely sure? We don't exactly have a hate-meter. I just know I hold aggro and did so even before I had the Epic Claw and ToD Stalwart bonuses. A Dev will need to clear this up.

[Junts]

After reading this thread (specifically the notes by Turbine), its clear to me that the Intimidate changes won't work.

So, Turbine, you need to either yank these changes, or change them before this goes live.

We do not want Intimidate to modify hate. We want a reliable tank ability, so we can assign someone (you know, using tactics) which the healers know will be the main tank. Its quite silly to think that 12 players will get together and 11 of them will equip -hate gear, and 1 will equip +hate gear and spam Intimidate. That is just silly game design, and invalidates entire Prestige Enhancements designed to allow players to build tanking characters.

By moving Intimidate directly to Threat, you broke it. The best Intimidators generate the least real threat (DPS threat) because of all the feats, skills and enhancements they take to be good tanks. This means the best DPS character will steal hate from characters DESIGNED to manage threat.

Here is how I propose you change Intimidate.

- On fail: +50% (+100% with shield) threat to your attacks.
- On Success: Generates a 15 second debuff called "Mantle of Threat" on each mob affected. The character will be moved to the top of the hate list (+buffer) of all monsters which were affected, plus this debuff should also "tick" like a DoT spell. Each "tick" of the debuff would reapply that exact same hate (+buffer) effect. Ticks should be often, every 2 seconds or perhaps 3-4, but no more than that.

This will allow a character which is designed to manage hate/threat to work properly considering their lower DPS capability.

I tell you what.

Just for you, I will transfer to Lamannia my paladin, with his 90 ac and his ability, with intimidate and divine righteousness, to keep aggro from Shade on a raidboss while using a shield.

There are such huge threat bonuses available that you can be a shield-using tank, use combat expertise, and still keep aggro from seirous dps, even serious dps who aren't using -threat gear. The ones using +threat gear are the most dicey, but still managable. A small dps increase is a huge threat increase wehn you get up to +235% bonus threat (think about that number again). You have to do about 30% of the other person's dps to do equal threat with that kind of threat bonus, and s/b does in fact do more than 30% of someone else's output.

[Tirisha]

Yes it does, was fixed a few updates ago. You get additional AC and HP from Stalwart stance. STR to but not as much as power surge.

AC being worthless in epics is an entirely different issue that hopefully Turbine will fix when they stop taking stupid pills.

As far as I'm aware they attempted to fix it and failed it appears to be generating very little if any threat at all from my experience with it.

Edit:

These issues may be separate but combine them and there is very little reason to roll a SD. *minimal threat *at best*, good AC that's worthless in epics, blocking dr and ac now neglable, static DR with shield that's probably on your desired armor anyways. Doesn't leave much too be desired.

[IronClan]

It won't be "difficult", it will be impossible. Even with a huge intimidate score and some nice melee threat enhancement, your buffer will be under 300. Any slightly dps-oriented character can do more than 300 damage in 15s.

You just killed the good old intimidate+shield-blocking, and ruined my next character idea... Good job removing options from the players (it was nice to have a way to contribute to the party that was not directly related to inflicting damage).

Hell forget 300 damage in 15 seconds... most any half decent DPS build is doing 300 every second (I'm honestly not sure if the Devs know this or not?)

that's 4500 damage in 15 seconds at the low range...

I can haz moar + hatez Plz mr Devleopards? Pliiiizzzzz? Must haz moar hate Gen, for to keep up wit da Khopeshez sir.

Even if you figure out how to do better DPS on a S&B build how am I getting the agro of a bunch of monsters and being a "tank", if I need to DPS each and every one of them, to keep their agro?

A tank that can only keep one mob on him, is just a low DPS toon that can still keep one mob on him...

Might was well drop intim, and go full DPS spec and leave Defender of Siberys and Stalwart defender on the rubbish heap with Deepwoods sniper PrE's....

Let me repeat: A tank that tanks ONE MOB and wont loose agro, is just a weak DPS build that can manage to keep one mobs agro... Until someone with good DPS comes over to help kill it.

An AC tank that only tanks Bosses, doesn't need AC because all the bosses hit our AC anyway... So whats the use of an AC/Tank focused Prestige class if the above two statements are true?

Once again: Eladrin please redesign the DoS and Stalwart prestige classes to be of some use after this change goes through.