Intimidate Useless

[Junts]

Hmmmm....didn't know this. Might have to take a look and see exactly how good they are.

My concern about them is that it doesn't seem to me that there is a good way to get a shield that bypasses and is also useful unless you're a pure paladin - and with the buff from intimidate, righteousness, etc, its hard to imagine a pure paladin who will be one of the people who needs to work on s/b threat, unless you are the aforementioned no str build.

[sephiroth1084]

Well, its not just the shield DPS but guards as well. Any tank that hasn't put as many different guards on as possible is seriously missing a huge part of the build since even a glancing blow with 0 dmg can proc them. So combined with DPS, HATE, rework of feats and enhancments, and some creative crafting made available it could do the trick.

If you can fit them in around all of your AC, hate, DPS and intimidate gear...sure.

I tihnk you need to re-read improved shield bash: it now provides additional shield blows while you are meleeing. I have no idea how good they are or how frequent they are or how hard they hit, but if you were needing more threat, they're a potential answer.

I was responding to the comment about shield bashing actively to retain blocking AC and DR.

[PresentTense]

I think what it comes down to is this: These changes are going to further restrict the variety in the game. While the original goal appears to have been to make S&B viable, I just don't see many people choosing to be "decent" at offense and defense, and those that do will have trouble finding parties because of the prevalence of min-maxing. Defensive builds were a rare and difficult breed - the needed AC is ridiculous, the gear is intensive and the sacrifice is deep. Most people build them when they're tired of building another dps ape.

But with intim aiding hate tanks, it's a done deal. After all, if you're going to have to heal the tank anyway because of mediocre ac/dr, they might as well be dealing great damage instead of one-handed gimp damage. Sure, there are AC tanks with dps modes who will stagger along for a while, but why be a DoS when you can be a KoTC? Why be a Defender when you can be a Kensai? You'll still be able to hold aggro, you'll just do it with damage. The advantage of the old intimidate was that, if it was good enough, there was no danger of stealing aggro, and that was enough of an advantage to make the builds viable.

I understand the feeling some people have that this is a good thing, that pure AC tanks weren't pulling their own weight in parties. But I think a lot of people here have demonstrated that, for the most part, that's not the case. They have dps modes, they have numerous guards, they heal themselves, the cast offensive spells, etc. But there are plenty of dps builds running around - if you don't want to play something else, that's fine, but don't belittle those of us who are tired of just hitting things.

So the turtle tanks will go, S&B will still be looked down upon in favor of true hate tanks, and you'll all be one step closer to every raid party being two healers, one caster, one bard and eight pure dps. But that just doesn't sound like a very interesting game to me. I like seeing the wf melee sorc, the divine caster with an intim in the 70s, the heal-spec'd pally. As is pointed out over and over on the forums, the game is not that hard. There's no need to force everyone into the same box, even if you like it there.

[grodon9999]

I think what it comes down to is this: These changes are going to further restrict the variety in the game. While the original goal appears to have been to make S&B viable, I just don't see many people choosing to be "decent" at offense and defense, and those that do will have trouble finding parties because of the prevalence of min-maxing. Defensive builds were a rare and difficult breed - the needed AC is ridiculous, the gear is intensive and the sacrifice is deep. Most people build them when they're tired of building another dps ape.

But with intim aiding hate tanks, it's a done deal. After all, if you're going to have to heal the tank anyway because of mediocre ac/dr, they might as well be dealing great damage instead of one-handed gimp damage. Sure, there are AC tanks with dps modes who will stagger along for a while, but why be a DoS when you can be a KoTC? Why be a Defender when you can be a Kensai? You'll still be able to hold aggro, you'll just do it with damage. The advantage of the old intimidate was that, if it was good enough, there was no danger of stealing aggro, and that was enough of an advantage to make the builds viable.

I understand the feeling some people have that this is a good thing, that pure AC tanks weren't pulling their own weight in parties. But I think a lot of people here have demonstrated that, for the most part, that's not the case. They have dps modes, they have numerous guards, they heal themselves, the cast offensive spells, etc. But there are plenty of dps builds running around - if you don't want to play something else, that's fine, but don't belittle those of us who are tired of just hitting things.

So the turtle tanks will go, S&B will still be looked down upon in favor of true hate tanks, and you'll all be one step closer to every raid party being two healers, one caster, one bard and eight pure dps. But that just doesn't sound like a very interesting game to me. I like seeing the wf melee sorc, the divine caster with an intim in the 70s, the heal-spec'd pally. As is pointed out over and over on the forums, the game is not that hard. There's no need to force everyone into the same box, even if you like it there.

Id turbine stays on it's current course of stupid regarding end-game content then yes.

If the AC and DR of a Stalwart/DoS aren't useful what's the point? If turbine continues to keep AC useless in end-game they are doubling down on stupid.

[Kace]

I like the New Thing generally, it's a bit more active and strategic, in as it now interacts with other mechanics. I've gotta coupla concerns however.

1. Da noobs
Gaining survivability is the most gear intensive, player skill driven, 'leet gauge needle buried at maximum system in this game. New players want to play agro management tanks. Previously they all got a noob-shell. They could hit intimidate, the mob o' ogres begin the skip-to-my-loo dance of triple crit beatdown, but they were in their noob shell, and survived. I can't think of any possible way a completely un-twinked new gal hits intimidate with her moderate fort item (if she got good advice), keeps swinging away, and doesn't turn into a grease stain. Having a obvious archetype with no way of playing it succesfully on the first go, and no warning on that fact for seven levels is a horrible idea. With this change, we need ways for a noob to build for survivability and succeed.

2. Interesting character builds
Previously characters that didn't melee, (bards, healbots, firewallers etc.) could take intimidate and stretch their usefulness in parties. These were neat builds. They have been killed. The game is better with off-the-wall ideas like these. I passed a sad little Phoenix on the way over here. If we don't do something today, many more amazing creatures may be lost forever. Act now.

3. General utility
The intimidate skill before was disproportionally more useful the less likely you would've had agro anyway. There are plenty of hate tanks that don't need intimidate. So the only characters that will use it will be the ones who have sacrificed dps. What did they get in return? Will it be worth it? I want to be able to say to myself 'thank goodness mediocre dps dude is here because he just got agro and amazing things will now happen because of it'. I'll have to see it in action.

[PresentTense]

As a general rule, I like the dynamic nature of the game too, even when it bites me, as was the case with my monster build. And if my tank is rendered useless, I'll probably just lesser it into something more effective. I just hate to see more creative builds die because of a game change that was not well thought out. If the goal was to make S&B more viable, a better scaling mechanic on shields would have been a much better place to start than reinventing intimidate. But tying bad dps to the dps system seems like a wasted effort, because in the end, if you don't bring something interesting to the table, you're going to be left out of parties in favor of another pure dps toon.

But I don't want it to seem like I'm ranting against the New Thing just because I have a character affected by it. My wizard is also going to undergo some big changes, some positive and some negative, based on the spell pass. And there's still some room for creative builds - I'm already looking at a wf melee sorc air savant with a couple of holy/shocking burst/shocking blast/lightning strike/shocking blow/greater shocking blow khopeshes, even once the curse damage is toned back to what it should be. But I have to say - changes like this, that destroy creative builds, make me hesitant to make more.

[Junts]

As a general rule, I like the dynamic nature of the game too, even when it bites me, as was the case with my monster build. And if my tank is rendered useless, I'll probably just lesser it into something more effective. I just hate to see more creative builds die because of a game change that was not well thought out. If the goal was to make S&B more viable, a better scaling mechanic on shields would have been a much better place to start than reinventing intimidate. But tying bad dps to the dps system seems like a wasted effort, because in the end, if you don't bring something interesting to the table, you're going to be left out of parties in favor of another pure dps toon.

But I don't want it to seem like I'm ranting against the New Thing just because I have a character affected by it. My wizard is also going to undergo some big changes, some positive and some negative, based on the spell pass. And there's still some room for creative builds - I'm already looking at a wf melee sorc air savant with a couple of holy/shocking burst/shocking blast/lightning strike/shocking blow/greater shocking blow khopeshes, even once the curse damage is toned back to what it should be. But I have to say - changes like this, that destroy creative builds, make me hesitant to make more.

intimiblock has been an acknowledged playstyle problem for a long, long time - if you kept building characters with no way to adjust to use it in a different way, you were very shortsighted.

[PresentTense]

intimiblock has been an acknowledged playstyle problem for a long, long time - if you kept building characters with no way to adjust to use it in a different way, you were very shortsighted.

Wait, what? Neither half of that makes sense. One, since when was intimitanking "an acknowledged playstyle problem" rather than a generally accepted, though certainly not exclusive, way of doing some of the raids? And two, did I not say in the text you quoted that lesser reincarnating was a solution? Even without that, my tank build is perfectly capable of raid healing, but that's not what he's built for, because to be honest, I find that much more boring than tanking.

[Kace]

I suppose as long as I'm on the subject...

The 'dps machines take active part in reducing their agro' bit was pretty funny. So you've got intimi-dude who's built to take agro. The only way he fails is if you're so awesome at dps that you outdo all of his agro multipliers, the mob turns to you, confirming your glory, and the pug bows in worshipful adoration to your soulstone. I see no way this fails..

Heck, I'll be doing my level best to hit the benchmark of awesomeness, and I'm usually not even much of an ass.

[lugoman]

I suppose as long as I'm on the subject...

The 'dps machines take active part in reducing their agro' bit was pretty funny. So you've got intimi-dude who's built to take agro. The only way he fails is if you're so awesome at dps that you outdo all of his agro multipliers, the mob turns to you, confirming your glory, and the pug bows in worshipful adoration to your soulstone. I see no way this fails..

Heck, I'll be doing my level best to hit the benchmark of awesomeness, and I'm usually not even much of an ass.

Come on, dont be ridiculous. Obviously all dps toons will LR and take diplo!

[Shade]

. As is pointed out over and over on the forums, the game is not that hard. There's no need to force everyone into the same box, even if you like it there.

Thats what you sound like you want to do.

Whats more limited and 2 dimensional then a character who does nothing other then spam 1 skill an entire raid (and holds down the shift key) and devout his entire character to defense?

Doing 1 thing is too easy. The games not hard, but it should at least promote balanced characters. A character that can't hit the broadside of a barn, much less actually hurt something should not be a useful character, no matter how high his defensese are.

The thing is, you CAN have some dps on a sword and board/AC/Defensive intimidate spec characater. You should not stand a shield block in all scenarios. In there current game theres a time and place for that, and the u9 game, there still will be. But as a full time deal? Why, thats so limiting and so boring. The game should encouarge you to do more, and thats exactly what this change does.

The change improves flexilbility of character choices, not the other ther way around. Your sight on the issue is just far too narrow.

Ever look at it from the other side?

How about the characters who did devoute much of there enegy into being great hate-tanks?

Intim for them meant nothing. If they lost hate agro on a tough 100K+ HP boss when he's down to 50% due to a death/incap, it was game over for them. They had no chance in hell of ever re-establishing agro.. No matter how skilled in intimidate or how powerful there +threat modifier was, you just couldn't make up for the 30k to 50k+ dmg some other character did before the boss died. the only way to continue and re-tank, was for everyone to die?

Why shouldn't that guy be able to intim the boss and take him back in the style he was using before?

Why should the turtle tank who just stands there and blocks hold the attention of a raid boss? Should not there AI be smart enough to know, ok this guy will never hurt me, why should I worry about him?

It's a smart change, it increases flexibility and allows more options. Not the other way around. It forces the broken intimiturtles out of there box, out of there shell, and makes them consider the other side of the game.

Sword and board characaters can still rely on AC and defense. They can still rely on intimidate too. The only difference is, they will need to take a few swings in between each intim.. which just makes perfect sense.

[PresentTense]

I understand where you're coming from, and I can see how hate tanks will enjoy this. But hate tanks are already viable builds, and my point is that this change isn't going to make S&B more accepted by the community, which Eladrin has effectively said is the goal of these changes. People simply aren't going to be interested in their mediocre dps, especially when hate tanks have received as much of a benefit as you're describing. It may technically allow for more S&B build options, but it seems to me that those new options are simply not going to be viable, especially in the face of the benefit you described that hate tanks are receiving. Heck, I could be wrong, but I have to think the first suggestion on every S&B build that goes up on the forums is still going to be, "you'll do a lot more damage if you go THF/TWF." In the end, we'll all keep playing the game. I don't see anyone quitting over this. Heck, I was on playing my tank again tonight, despite his imminent demise and reincarnation once U9 comes out.

[Jendrak]

If you can fit them in around all of your AC, hate, DPS and intimidate gear...sure.

It's really not that hard to put 4 or more gurads on a build if you think out side the box in terms of gear. Mine currently runs with crushing wave, corrosive salt, disentigration, and lightning strike with plans to add a 5th TBD guard. As well as a 90+AC, 70 intim, 48 DR, 750hp and what I consider decent (40-45+weapon effects from Lit2) S&B dps. But once again, will have to wait to see how intim functions correctly under the new system before i waste the time or ingredients to make it.

[Junts]

Thats what you sound like you want to do.

Whats more limited and 2 dimensional then a character who does nothing other then spam 1 skill an entire raid (and holds down the shift key) and devout his entire character to defense?

Doing 1 thing is too easy. The games not hard, but it should at least promote balanced characters. A character that can't hit the broadside of a barn, much less actually hurt something should not be a useful character, no matter how high his defensese are.

The thing is, you CAN have some dps on a sword and board/AC/Defensive intimidate spec characater. You should not stand a shield block in all scenarios. In there current game theres a time and place for that, and the u9 game, there still will be. But as a full time deal? Why, thats so limiting and so boring. The game should encouarge you to do more, and thats exactly what this change does.

The change improves flexilbility of character choices, not the other ther way around. Your sight on the issue is just far too narrow.

Ever look at it from the other side?

How about the characters who did devoute much of there enegy into being great hate-tanks?

Intim for them meant nothing. If they lost hate agro on a tough 100K+ HP boss when he's down to 50% due to a death/incap, it was game over for them. They had no chance in hell of ever re-establishing agro.. No matter how skilled in intimidate or how powerful there +threat modifier was, you just couldn't make up for the 30k to 50k+ dmg some other character did before the boss died. the only way to continue and re-tank, was for everyone to die?

Why shouldn't that guy be able to intim the boss and take him back in the style he was using before?

Why should the turtle tank who just stands there and blocks hold the attention of a raid boss? Should not there AI be smart enough to know, ok this guy will never hurt me, why should I worry about him?

It's a smart change, it increases flexibility and allows more options. Not the other way around. It forces the broken intimiturtles out of there box, out of there shell, and makes them consider the other side of the game.

Sword and board characaters can still rely on AC and defense. They can still rely on intimidate too. The only difference is, they will need to take a few swings in between each intim.. which just makes perfect sense.

You realize you posting this probably evidence of armageddon, right?

[Pfold]

Whats more limited and 2 dimensional then a character who does nothing other then spam 1 skill an entire raid (and holds down the shift key) and devout his entire character to defense?

Doing 1 thing is too easy. The games not hard, but it should at least promote balanced characters. A character that can't hit the broadside of a barn, much less actually hurt something should not be a useful character, no matter how high his defensese are.

The thing is, you CAN have some dps on a sword and board/AC/Defensive intimidate spec characater. You should not stand a shield block in all scenarios. In there current game theres a time and place for that, and the u9 game, there still will be. But as a full time deal? Why, thats so limiting and so boring. The game should encouarge you to do more, and thats exactly what this change does.

You absolutely can dps with a s&b. It won't be any good, but you can. You just won't see it in more difficult scenarios. Honestly, do you have the s&b fighter tank Horoth, Conjoined abi or Marilith over a character that purely hate tanks? The fact that s&b, even after these changes, will not generate what hate tanks currently can generate makes them obsolete before the update even hits. Even with intim'ing at that optimal intervals with the s&b, why even risk it?

The change improves flexilbility of character choices, not the other ther way around. Your sight on the issue is just far too narrow.

Ever look at it from the other side?

How about the characters who did devoute much of there enegy into being great hate-tanks?

Intim for them meant nothing. If they lost hate agro on a tough 100K+ HP boss when he's down to 50% due to a death/incap, it was game over for them. They had no chance in hell of ever re-establishing agro.. No matter how skilled in intimidate or how powerful there +threat modifier was, you just couldn't make up for the 30k to 50k+ dmg some other character did before the boss died. the only way to continue and re-tank, was for everyone to die?

'Great' hate tanks in my mind just don't die regularly enough to even be bothered with intim. Like you said, they devote much of their energy in creating/playing one. Sure on the odd occasion they'll die to an anomoly but those instances happen so far and few between that you dont even bother worrying about them. I sincerely doubt that this change will justify hate tanks picking up intim.Who picks up the boss when the tank goes down? Second on the threat table . After that it's all about situational awareness.

Why shouldn't that guy be able to intim the boss and take him back in the style he was using before?

Why should the turtle tank who just stands there and blocks hold the attention of a raid boss? Should not there AI be smart enough to know, ok this guy will never hurt me, why should I worry about him?

The turtle tank invests just as many resources and time as a hate tank does. So what? They hold down shift and press intim while the hate tank auto attacks and face rolls boosts/clickies. I mean, if it's going to get simplified let's go full monty. No point in bashing one and over glorifying the other. As far as the AI is concerned, if it were worth its salt, it would recognize the healer is keeping its adversary up. So by the same token, 'this guy (hate tank) won't last long if I stomp that squishy over there real quick.'

It's a smart change, it increases flexibility and allows more options. Not the other way around. It forces the broken intimiturtles out of there box, out of there shell, and makes them consider the other side of the game.

Sword and board characaters can still rely on AC and defense. They can still rely on intimidate too. The only difference is, they will need to take a few swings in between each intim.. which just makes perfect sense.

In yellow

I am on the fence about this change. I definitely can see both sides of what folks are saying.

My main problem with seeing this implented as seen on Lam is that it will give a lot of newer/casual players the notion that this is a viable end game build(s&b). Don't get me wrong, you can dps with it but you can also try to tank weilding 2 potency scepters... Just because you can doesn't always mean you should.

I also predict unless the intimidate ability itself is streamlined further, it will be too confusing to those newer players. They'll either avoid it because it appears very cumbersome and isn't cut and dry in its description OR they create a build that heavily invests in it and not fully understamding it's 'new purpose' will totally mess it up. Either one of those outcomes just seems bad.

The first proves the change wasn't really needed. Anyone could read the description and grasp what it does. The description on Lam isn't really forthcoming with the parameters of the ability. In essence what I see occuring is the elimination of a competent build to round out a couple of others. In the end there is one less viable choice. (you can debate all you like about how viable s&b is but the truth is it will not hold up in the few raids that require tanking like other builds)

The second is even worse. Some poor people will try it out because 'it makes sense' to them as they see a s&b fighter as an iconic symbol in not only mmo's but in fanatsy in general. As that person starts their journey through this game they will quickly find out that it was not what they expected at all. It will net the same result as a new player using the 'premade paths' at character creation or one of the 'battle' clerics we all chuckle about.

[sirgog]

Rarely, some monsters are scripted to occasionally select a second target for certain actions. Intimidate will not prevent these "off main target" attacks.

So to clarify, that means that if I have Arraetrikos' aggro (through pure threat or a combination of Intimidate and threat) in part 4, he will aim his melee attacks against only me if I am in range (possibly hitting others as well) and Fireball/Meteor Swarm/Mass Hold completely at random? And in part 5, he'll move toward me and aim his melee swipes at me, but toss fireballs around at random bystanders?

If this is the intended behaviour, I don't think it's happening at the moment. Even in groups where I've outclassed everyone else in DPS output, I've never been able to keep Harry pointed at me the whole time.

[sephiroth1084]

So to clarify, that means that if I have Arraetrikos' aggro (through pure threat or a combination of Intimidate and threat) in part 4, he will aim his melee attacks against only me if I am in range (possibly hitting others as well) and Fireball/Meteor Swarm/Mass Hold completely at random? And in part 5, he'll move toward me and aim his melee swipes at me, but toss fireballs around at random bystanders?

If this is the intended behaviour, I don't think it's happening at the moment. Even in groups where I've outclassed everyone else in DPS output, I've never been able to keep Harry pointed at me the whole time.

Intimidate currently works in part 4, but not at all in part 5. As far as I can tell, hate may work in part 4, and seems to maybe work half the time in part 5 (if I'm feeling silly, and activate Divine Righteousness in part 5, I seem to Harry facing in my direction more often, and popping back and forth between me and another, single target, but I may just be looking for certain behavior and finding it at those times).

[sirgog]

....There are still some situations where intimiblocking will be useful. For instance, on the last boss of Epic Devil Assault while the party is clearing everything that spawns with him, you're likely better off hitting intimidate and blocking than attacking at that point. If players are dying around you it may be better to block as well.

Try getting everyone to not attack, then charming the trash, and let those Tiefling casters tank Turigulon for a second. While Big Red tears them apart, you can prepare for the real fight by Displacing your hate tank, Ray of Enfeebling and Exhausting Turigulon, and also Displacing anyone that might accidentally pull aggro.

Even if you only charm one successfully, it still gives you time to kill the other one.

[sephiroth1084]

Try getting everyone to not attack, then charming the trash, and let those Tiefling casters tank Turigulon for a second. While Big Red tears them apart, you can prepare for the real fight by Displacing your hate tank, Ray of Enfeebling and Exhausting Turigulon, and also Displacing anyone that might accidentally pull aggro.

Even if you only charm one successfully, it still gives you time to kill the other one.

I'll have to try that one tomorrow.

[sirgog]

I'll have to try that one tomorrow.

Just act quickly - they won't stay charmed long. You might have 12-15 seconds.