Epic scrolls?

[sephiroth1084]

No changes have been made to Epic Scrolls for Update 9.

We are considering making changes to the way that Epic Scrolls are handled in the future. We've got several different proposals that we're looking at. (One of which was making the scrolls typed by area.)

Would these be added into existing epic content?

A middle ground might be to assign each item a Rare, Uncommon, Common value, and have 3 types of scrolls drop in each area (Rare Epic Desert Scroll, Uncommon Epic Scroll of the Red Fens). So, for the really powerful items, it would still be somewhat difficult to make and acquire them, but nowhere near as bad as it is now. That is, if you're hesitant to make it too easy to make something like the Chaosblades epic.

Personally, I'd like to see optionals in epics become more worth doing, and would like some reward for multiple completions and for doing things like disabling all/most of the traps in Chains of Flame. And I'd like the emphasis on dungeon tokens to slot gear lowered a bit: 60 completions just to finish a single item is pretty exorbitant, particularly when, as I believe Junts said in another thread on the topic, epic items tend to work up to a boiling point, where you get several (or dozens) of completions, getting or two pieces for several items, and then start to make multiple pieces one after the other.

With tokens being used to buy TRs, having to wipe slots for new gear, to upgrade old epics to new versions, or due to a mistake, token accumulation tends to fall well behind epic item acquisition. I think I'm somewhere around 120 tokens in the hole just for my current unslotted epics that are a priority, and I have about a half dozen epic items just a scroll away from completion that I'd really like to slot (or have to slot in order for them to fit in my gear), and those represent almost another 200 tokens. If this is your intent for the epic system, I guess nothing will be changed, but it doesn't seem like this sort of behavior is your intent.

[quityourjobs]

No changes have been made to Epic Scrolls for Update 9.

We are considering making changes to the way that Epic Scrolls are handled in the future. We've got several different proposals that we're looking at. (One of which was making the scrolls typed by area.)

Very disappointing that this isn't happening immediately.

Epic scrolls and the chaotic way that epics are (not) crafted really keeps me from wanting to run them any more. I simply spend too much time for too little chance at character progression. It's a better use of my time to run a VOD for a completion. or just not log in at all.

It's not uncommon to run an entire Into the Deeps and have one scroll drop for the entire party. If you take those odds and think about the raw chance of you personally getting a scroll, then again by the chance of getting the one scroll you want, it becomes really depressing.

Please do something productive about this, otherwise the population that isn't endlessly solo-farming scrolls on their WF caster will soon be. Outside of TRs, it's really the only "endgame" around:

DDO: Scroll-Farmers Unlimited

[TheDearLeader]

No generics yet.

But strangely... scrolls seem to fall like candy on lam. couple hours of screwin around testin in epics got me more scrolls than the last 3 months of epic farming on live.



And thats just.... ok. i won't say it. But you know it is.

Hope this scroll drop rate stays on live.

It won't. Let me explain why:

Lammania has a jacked up drop rate for everything everywhere. This is so we, as played, can preview the new loot, and *maybe* even test out its abilities, before the piece of equipment goes live and has some game-breaking ability.

I *do* foresee about the first week of the new content pack having a higher named drop rate, but I don't foresee it being game-wide.

It's like when Update 2 came, and IQ got opened back up. It was my first time in there since I was a Froob, and in Eye of the Titan, one of my first items was a +4 Silver Vorpal. Great item, and there were plenty of ML:18 weaponry popping out of chests and end rewards.

Now I go back in there? ML:14 gear. Same chests, same turn-ins. I've noticed this in every new content pack - there's just enough time for the early adopters (for lack of a better term) to loot items/make items Epic, and show them off to everyone, and generate hype... and then the drop rate decreases.

I feel your pain - was in EChrono for less than 10 minutes, playing with Savant... got a Scroll of the Helm of Frost >.<

[Gratch]

Any chance you could meet us halfway on a simple change to current scroll drops on live w/o adding much in the way of coding?

Change it from:
Epic Mob Death = 1% chance at scroll (separate 1/10 at a desert raid scroll)
to:
Epic Mob Death = (1 + ((#PartyMembers - 1)/5.0))% chance at the epic scroll table

This would yield 1% for solo'ing, 2% for a full party and 3.2% for a full raid.

for Update 9. To help encourage grouping instead of solo farming. And also to directly help with Chrono scrolls.

[Cyr]

Any chance you could meet us halfway on a simple change to current scroll drops on live w/o adding a much in the way of coding?

Change it from:
Epic Mob Death = 1% chance at scroll (separate 1/10 at a desert raid scroll)
to:
Epic Mob Death = (1 + ((#PartyMembers - 1)/6))% chance at the epic scroll table

This would yield 1% for solo'ing, 2% for a full party and 3% for a full raid.

for Update 9. To help encourage grouping instead of solo farming. And also to directly help with Chrono scrolls.

This would be a great change to the mechanic. It is the only loot mechanic in game that I know of that you are penalized for having a party along.

[Junts]

Any chance you could meet us halfway on a simple change to current scroll drops on live w/o adding much in the way of coding?

Change it from:
Epic Mob Death = 1% chance at scroll (separate 1/10 at a desert raid scroll)
to:
Epic Mob Death = (1 + ((#PartyMembers)/6.0))% chance at the epic scroll table

This would yield 1% for solo'ing, 2% for a full party and 3% for a full raid.

for Update 9. To help encourage grouping instead of solo farming. And also to directly help with Chrono scrolls.

Its 1/25 desert scrolls are raid, not 1/10.

hate to break it to you that you've been overly optimistic all this time

[TheDearLeader]

Any chance you could meet us halfway on a simple change to current scroll drops on live w/o adding much in the way of coding?

Change it from:
Epic Mob Death = 1% chance at scroll (separate 1/10 at a desert raid scroll)
to:
Epic Mob Death = (1 + ((#PartyMembers)/6.0))% chance at the epic scroll table

This would yield 1% for solo'ing, 2% for a full party and 3% for a full raid.

for Update 9. To help encourage grouping instead of solo farming. And also to directly help with Chrono scrolls.

I have brain-nommed upon this idea. And I find it to be good.

Let's do this, yeah? I'm tired of running Epics and getting skunked.

[CaptGrim]

Any chance you could meet us halfway on a simple change to current scroll drops on live w/o adding much in the way of coding?

Change it from:
Epic Mob Death = 1% chance at scroll (separate 1/10 at a desert raid scroll)
to:
Epic Mob Death = (1 + ((#PartyMembers - 1)/5.0))% chance at the epic scroll table

This would yield 1% for solo'ing, 2% for a full party and 3.2% for a full raid.

for Update 9. To help encourage grouping instead of solo farming. And also to directly help with Chrono scrolls.

I'm pretty sure that the drop rate used to be 1%, and that when the change to make scolls drop in your bag it was changed to 1%/6.

Each player has a .165% chance at a scroll, not that each mob drops a scroll 1% of the time as it should be.

The thinking being that out of a six player group the drop rate is the same. But solo you have one sixth the chance to see a scroll than you used to solo.

This also makes it possible for 2 scrolls to drop for 2 players from the same mob. Which I have heard of happening.

A simple change to 1.5% PER MOB would help solo and small group players get the scrolls they should from killing the same mobs.

Either way I fully support your proposed drop rates, as anything will help at this point, but going to generic scrolls is just a lame solution to a simple problem.

[Glenalth]

My opinion on the perfect epic loot system...

* Scrolls
I like the scroll system, though in large loot lists scroll rarity is an issue.

I love the concept of better drop rates when there are more party members. The current mechanic makes it more efficient to solo for scrolls and that's just no good. ("Friends don't let friends solo", is that still a core concept for this game?)

Scrolls should have specific drop locations or at least be heavily weighted to a specific quest. This would alleviate many of the issues with scroll rarity while not changing the entire epic construction system. It's also something that could work independent of a drop rate change for some packs.

* Seals
Seals are fine in most cases and I'd leave this mechanic alone. There is usually a best/only place to look for them and they're usually not the issue when trying to complete items. You might get unlucky and not pull what you are looking for, but you can get a bunch of friends together and increase your chances.

* Shards
Shards should be made slightly more generic since it is often the entire loot list for a pack that drops in a single quest. In some cases drop rates would need to be tweaked as well. Exceptions to the condensing would be areas where there are very few drops such as Sentinels or quests that drop focused shards like Offering of Blood and other Demon Sands side quests.

For example, the Vault of Night shards could be broken down like this:
Shard of the Prophecy = Azure, Crimson, Silver, Dragon's Eye
Shard of the Mroranon = Belt, Helm
Shard of Warding = Warding Bracers, Shield
Shard of Delving = Delving Boots, Goggles, Suit
Shard of the Silver Concord = Ring, Cloak
Shard of Life = Ruby Gauntlets, Hammer of Life
Shard of Protection = Ironweave Robe, Stonemeld Plate, Docent of Grace
Shard of the Sword of Shadow
Shard of the Red Dragon

Red Fens shard list could be cut almost in 1/2 by just making each set use the same shard:
Shard of the Claw = Bracers/Gloves
Shard of Venom = Necklace/Ring
etc..

Demon Sands has a special problem in that the explorer area shards have great rarity due to the combination of drop rate and the enormous size of the loot list. Either splitting the 30+ shards to other quests or making combined shards would help a lot, but the drop rate in ADQ1 is currently awful. There are also 5 other quests in the area that are not yet epic that could be their new homes (and would give targeted drop locations for the scrolls).



tl;dr = Scroll weighted more per party member than per party. Quest targeted scroll drops for areas with large loot lists. Condensing of shards into themed shards in areas with large loot lists. Seals are OK.

ps. I'm still annoyed that there is no Epic Bloodrage Symbiont.

[Junts]

I'm pretty sure that the drop rate used to be 1%, and that when the change to make scolls drop in your bag it was changed to 1%/6.

Each player has a .0165% chance at a scroll, not that each mob drops a scroll 1% of the time as it should be.

The thinking being that out of a six player group the drop rate is the same. But solo you have one sixth the chance to see a scroll than you used to solo.

This also makes it possible for 2 scrolls to drop for 2 players from the same mob. Which I have heard of happening.

A simple change to 1.5% PER MOB would help solo and small group players get the scrolls they should from killing the same mobs.

Either way I fully support your proposed drop rates, as anything will help at this point, but going to generic scrolls is just a lame solution to a simple problem.

This isn't true, soloing remains a much more lucrative source of scrolls.

However, the changed scroll drop mechanism has inadvertantly removed scroll drops on certain types of kills: specifically, mobs that aren't killed by a player (eg if you charm stuff, both the charmed mobs killing things, and the charmed mobs dying cannot give you scrolls).

Since many soloers use symbol of persuasion, they are inadvertantly ruining their own droprates.

[kernal42]

I'm pretty sure that the drop rate used to be 1%, and that when the change to make scolls drop in your bag it was changed to 1%/6.

Each player has a .0165% chance at a scroll, not that each mob drops a scroll 1% of the time as it should be.

To re-iterate Junts' comment:

What you say is simply wrong. Significant data from post-bag-drop scroll-farming experience puts the drop rate of scrolls at 1.5-2% per kill for a single, solo player. Your numbers are off by a factor of 100. Furthermore, these per kill drop rates do not appear to change when more players are added to the party/instance.

-Kernal

[Carpone]

We are considering making changes to the way that Epic Scrolls are handled in the future. We've got several different proposals that we're looking at. (One of which was making the scrolls typed by area.)

I think that's a fantastic idea.

[eterna1_drag0n]

sephiroth1084 and Glenalth both have fantastic ideas for the scroll drop rates, +1 to each for their contributions!

Both of them and the Rumor gave great ways to change/fix the drop rates and mechanics; But, whether it is Set, Rarity, or Generic; something needs to be done! The current system does not work for large item pool epics!

[quityourjobs]

I like the idea of scaling scroll drops based on party size. Doesn't overly penalize solos, but gives a good incentive to group.

They could easily double the scroll drop rate without it being immediately noticeable. I've gotten 3 scrolls from Echrono, ever...

[Ellistran]

Make all scrolls geramenaric, and make it retromeactive!

Make all seals geramenaric, and make it retromeactive!

Make all shards geramenaric and make it retromeactive!

Let there be loot!

[Sarisa]

This isn't true, soloing remains a much more lucrative source of scrolls.

However, the changed scroll drop mechanism has inadvertantly removed scroll drops on certain types of kills: specifically, mobs that aren't killed by a player (eg if you charm stuff, both the charmed mobs killing things, and the charmed mobs dying cannot give you scrolls).

Since many soloers use symbol of persuasion, they are inadvertantly ruining their own droprates.

If this is true, that explains why Partycrashers is so horrible for trying to get scrolls now, even in a full group.

[NaturalHazard]

I personally liked the idea of Epic Scrolls becoming generic.

So did I............ i guess part of that is a got a bunch of useless scrolls and not a single worthwhile one :P.

[bartosy]

This isn't true, soloing remains a much more lucrative source of scrolls.

However, the changed scroll drop mechanism has inadvertantly removed scroll drops on certain types of kills: specifically, mobs that aren't killed by a player (eg if you charm stuff, both the charmed mobs killing things, and the charmed mobs dying cannot give you scrolls).

Since many soloers use symbol of persuasion, they are inadvertantly ruining their own droprates.

i can confirm this after farming chrono steadily for at least 14 days with symbol of persuasion..

always always get the last hit in or you wont get the count some people say you do others say you dont.. i honestly believe in the always get the last hit in.. i never got a scroll from a charmed mob beating on things.. all my +- 15 solo farming scrolls where from mobs where i got the last shot in.

on another note the scroll drop rates dont really bother me you can always level an arcane and go scrollfarming, if your commited to that you ll have all the scrolls you need in no time especially chrono altho the env cloak is tough to get..

[Junts]

i can confirm this after farming chrono steadily for at least 14 days with symbol of persuasion..

always always get the last hit in or you wont get the count some people say you do others say you dont.. i honestly believe in the always get the last hit in.. i never got a scroll from a charmed mob beating on things.. all my +- 15 solo farming scrolls where from mobs where i got the last shot in.

on another note the scroll drop rates dont really bother me you can always level an arcane and go scrollfarming, if your commited to that you ll have all the scrolls you need in no time especially chrono altho the env cloak is tough to get..

I am starting to believe the mere presence of charmed stuff may mess with your droprates. I tried a lot of farming where I intentionally zapped stuff to get the kills - doing chrono w/ nonextended symbols so that all the charms broke before they killed anything, or tabbing around and killing low stuff with polar ray before it would die to other charms, etc, and it was always lower.

Since I went to farming chrono without any charm (a bit more annoying), my success rate has improved significantly.

I did my initial testing of this on adq chest farm runs - every run, I'd throw a symbol at the start of monkey and get 4-5 wildmen and 1-2 of all the junk that chased me up the path (demons efreeti etc), then run on and let it all fight while I looted.

Its only 4-6 mob deaths per run, but over dozens of ransacks its hundreds of kills, and dozens of epic token fragments and renown rewards..but never once a scroll since the change to scroll drops (previously, I found two while doing exactly that, I'd run back through to check and see if anything fell).

Charmed mobs and mobs they kill cannot drop scrolls evar.

[bartosy]

I am starting to believe the mere presence of charmed stuff may mess with your droprates. I tried a lot of farming where I intentionally zapped stuff to get the kills - doing chrono w/ nonextended symbols so that all the charms broke before they killed anything, or tabbing around and killing low stuff with polar ray before it would die to other charms, etc, and it was always lower.

Since I went to farming chrono without any charm (a bit more annoying), my success rate has improved significantly.

I did my initial testing of this on adq chest farm runs - every run, I'd throw a symbol at the start of monkey and get 4-5 wildmen and 1-2 of all the junk that chased me up the path (demons efreeti etc), then run on and let it all fight while I looted.

Its only 4-6 mob deaths per run, but over dozens of ransacks its hundreds of kills, and dozens of epic token fragments and renown rewards..but never once a scroll since the change to scroll drops (previously, I found two while doing exactly that, I'd run back through to check and see if anything fell).

Charmed mobs and mobs they kill cannot drop scrolls evar.

yep thats what i feel too the thing that makes it even more confusing is that charmed mobs do drop tokens. even if they're killed by enemy mobs and your long dead watching the spectacle they still drop a bag saw this happening a lot of times.