Monkey Grip: How would you balance it?

[TheDjinnFor]

The description in that is off.

It does not let you wield a Greatsword one handed. It lets you wield a Large Longsword. This is pointless in DDO however since we don't have differently sized weapons.

Technically it does.

See the D20 SRD for some evidence for what I'm about to say.

A Large Longsword = a Medium Greatsword. Both do 2d6 damage and crit from 19-20/x2. If Monkey Grip means you can one-hand Large Longswords, then you basically get the same result. But that doesn't mean you can turn around and dual-wield Greatswords, I admit, since technically they are different weapons (with different proficiencies required, and different racial bonuses).

In DMG1, however, you were given the option of converting certain weapons into different weapons based on their size category. For example, Large Longsword = Medium Greatsword, Small Longsword = Medium Dagger (and vice versa). This was to allow greater flexibility on the sorts of drops you received when fighting enemy monsters.

So, in a nutshell, if you were following this optional rule you could treat a Medium Greatsword as a Large Longsword, then dual-wield it according to Monkey Grip. What this means is that proficiencies and racial bonuses apply to both, and if you find either one as treasure they are virtually exchangeable.

And of course, if you go with later additions to 3.5, they scrapped the small/one handed/two handed system entirely and simply replaced it with the following system:

Something built for one size category larger than you = two handed.
Something built for your size category = one handed.
Something built for one size category less than you = light.

So as an example, the Maul was supposed to be a Huge/unusable weapon with an Exotic Proficiency feat that allowed you to treat it as a Large/two handed weapon (similar to the Bastard Sword which allowed you to take a proficiency feat to treat it as a Medium/one handed weapon). That's why the Maul does more damage than the Greatclub. Retroactively, all weapons that were two-handed for a medium creature were to be considered built for Large creatures as one-handed, and all light weapons for a medium creature were to be considered built for Small creatures as one-handed weapons.

So a Large Longsword = 2 handed weapon, and Medium Greatsword = 2 handed weapon. If I recall correctly, Monkey Grip allows you to treat weapons as one size category smaller while retaining their damage. So, Medium Greatsword = Small Greatsword = one handed weapon.

So according to the official rules (certainly not the Core 3, but if I recall correctly the Maul was in the Players Handbook 2), yes, Monkey Grip works like that.

TL;DR: the feat works exactly as people think it does, but isn't really applicable to DDO.

[NaturalHazard]

lol 2 ESOS really really? sorry I havent even read any of the thread just the title but as soon as I saw monkey grip thats what I immediatly thought of, 2 ESOS and balance? granted very very, very hard to get but still..............

[NaturalHazard]

Assuming DDO was to implement the Monkey-Grip Feat how do you think it should be balanced out to have a comparable set of pros and cons vs. normal THF and 2WF?



Here's some of the options that I think could work, either all or some combination of them, whichever works out in actual playtesting:

• Race-restricted to Warforged and Half-Orc. Why? I don't know, just kind of makes sense I guess. Okay maybe let all other races Monkey-Grip just Quarterstaves only.
  
  
• Requires Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Handed Fighting
  
  
• CAN NOT take advantage of Glancing Blows or extra Off-Hand Attacks.
  
  
• An extra -2/-4 (in addition to the usual 2WF penalties) to attacks. That extra penalty could be removed by taking a hypothetical Improved Monkey Grip feat which might require Greater Two-Handed Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting.
  
  
• If it all still ends up being too OP, maybe they could also disable (or halve) any benefits from Power Attack for it, maybe double the penalty to attack from PA while dual-wielding 2-handers.

and why even bother with all that, you ask?

Epic SoS. Times 2.

Need I say more?

Just curious why should only horcs and toasters get them? I can understand them being bigger and all so it makes sense logically that way, but when it comes to getting more melee dps these two races dont need any more help they are already ahead of the others, lol and the other races get quarter staves after sacrificing the same ammount as the horcs and toasters? though I dont know, 2 Q staves, would you still get acrobat? some sort of big stick build but 2 big stick build?

I didnt realise that the pnp version didnt allow you to duel weild greatswords, in nwn2 it lets you do that, so I assumed that it was the same in pnp, my mistake.

[Angelus_dead]

Technically it does.

The rules to which you linked come to the opposite conclusion. If a Longsword is enlarged to have 2d6 damage, then it's a Large Longsword, which is technically not a Greatsword. In some ways a Medium character can handle a Large Longsword similarly to a Greatsword, but it still isn't a Greatsword. Effects or traits which apply specifically to Longswords or Greatswords will not be switched around because the Longsword became Large.

[Falco_Easts]

What you want to do with your *cough* "greatsword" and so called "monkeygrip" are up to you. Don't be suprised if it makes you go blind though.

[Skyeson]

Assuming DDO was to implement the Monkey-Grip Feat how do you think it should be balanced out to have a comparable set of pros and cons vs. normal THF and 2WF?

(however that feat works in PnP, for our purposes we'll assume that in DDO it will simply allow you to dual-wield 2-handed weapons like Greatswords etc.)

...

and why even bother with all that, you ask?

Epic SoS. Times 2.

Need I say more?

Any balancing that would allow TWF have to include a nerf to ESOS. So I don't think a balanced implementation would produce the result you seem to be looking for.

One solution could be to allow monkey grip but not allow TWF to be used with it, which may make S & B more attractive.

[KillEveryone]

Are you serious about this? If you are, it seems you are looking for something OP. This is something that everyone will end up if they are a DPS build.

Are you the one that was suggesting this about a year ago? It didn't go over then and lots of people laid out why this won't go in the game.

This would end up being one of the must have feats. If this got implemented, people will start crying nerf it. Either they won't want to have to fit it into their build or they won't have the best THF weapon to wield with it so they will feel inferior.

Really, it is OP when you consider that you'd be able to TWF ESoS.