It's all about the melees.

[Beethoven]

If he assumes the level 5 fighter has UMD and cash to blur and haste himself, then the caster would have an even easier time.

Yeah ... the point I was trying to make is that toons should be capable of surviving level 9 content without extensive expenditures of consumables. Now, I generally agree that not buffing at all (on principle) is bad<tm>.

However, the same goes the other way: casters too have limited resources. There is nothing wrong with asking for buffs, but there are also people who will take it beyond sense or reason.

Case in point: expecting the occasional heal from a cleric/fvs, a haste every now and then from either bard or arcane and perhaps some more extensive buffs before tough/boss fights is reasonable. Asking for basically two players following you (the proverbial you) around at all times to constantly baby-sit, wand-whip and buff you from hjeals to resists, blurs, displacements and haste is maybe taking it a bit too far.

[Tom318]

Oh yes. An arcane's best skill is the ability to run away very, very quickly.

Too true. And rangers as well.. the ability to run very fast cannot be exaggerated enough when you have to kite lol

[cdemeritt]

Things are not Black and White ...

They are grey...

There are times where Haste /rage is needed ... But no i won't have any melee insist on me giving him greater heroism in part 1 of shroud with portals where u hit on a 2 regardless ...

The rest I can agree with, but why do most who say this think I'm asking for GH to hit the portals? The trog casters cast fear, which a low will save barb or fighter often don't save vs? GH makes you immune to fear... (ok, the caster should have the trogs down before you get there... but this doesn't always happen... And you end up with a melee or two that's just standing there...

That being said, I do have the reavers ring for fear immunity, but it takes up my strider slot, and a GH clicky for the times when the caster wont. I do believe in having the things I feel are essential to me... including my own GH, Blur, Haste, rage, Displacement, Stoneskin, Etc, Etc... just Seems to be that some constantly tote GH in part 1 of the shroud isn't needed because anyone can hit the portals with a 2, and that's not why I'm asking for it.

[cdemeritt]

But as far as the OP goes... Yes, been in a few groups like that... My favorite was a Stormcleave pug where 4 of us had formed... the 5th person joined, only thing he said was "Invite XXXX", in a rather rude tone... Myself, had I had the star, would have booted him on the spot... however our party leader invited XXXX to the party, we step in, XXXX and his friend said "We" (the other 4 party members) were there to support "them" and were NOT to get in their way, we were only their to cast Haste/rage, and to heal... And they took off at full speed, and spoke only to each other as they ran, only speaking to the rest of the party when they felt like yelling at us when we were falling behind or not Being their buffbots...

Today I'd laugh and drop, or wait for the right moment to cast grease/sleetstorm/dispel... but at the time, I was angry (still am, as I can still remember XXXX's name after 2 1/2 years). It was very rude... to be the last to join a pug, and say we were only their for them..... but there are those who are like this...

[NecroKovy]

I make an honest attempt to be fair about buffs, but as was already mentioned if someone thinks that the very first thing on my 'to do' list is drop Haste, they've got it backwards. I don't seem to remember very many quests that immediately zone into a Red Dungeon Alert mob, so just wait a second and let everyone take a breath and prep the way they like. (Mind, I've never really had a problematic situation where language became abusive or anything, but if you've never ever played a caster, please try to keep in mind that buffs for us are important too! We haven't forgotten you, we just know how to manage the buff clocks...it's part of what we do, so it's not like all of us just want to save all our mana to spam Meteor Swarm. Please trust us Wizards who have our buffing down to a science we like, and you may be pleasantly surprised!)

I'm happy to buff someone who really needs a specific buff to succeed. As long as everything is communicated properly, that is. Not to mention, if they can just wait until I'm finished putting on my "wizard makeup/every buff I put on myself if I'm not sure what's going to happen". All long terms go first, Jump, ER, GH, etc....

If I am shortmanning with a hireling, I will do my best to DV and buff/summon at the same time. Then, when the entire menagerie is present, and I've squeezed every drop of DV out of the hireling (and if I don't have a DV hireling it still works the same way)....Rage, DA on myself, and finally Haste. It really doesn't take that long, and everyone's timer is the same as mine.

Haste got about 30 seconds left? C'mon over, but chances are if everyone is in a crowd I'll nudge in there and drop one down for them. Same with Rage. I AM watching how much time is left when I can, but if you can't get in tune with your group, and look at every buff as a 'give it to ME' type......well, see ya in three and a half minutes or so.

[taurean430]

Yeah I think the guy's attitude was the problem. I've run into this more than I can count, and my solution has been to out perform them. Follow that up with polite inquiries as to what their issue was when outdone by a 'healer' or 'buffer' and hilarity ensues every time.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

I'd leave it up to the leader of the party. If he agrees and wants me to buff the guy then i do it. If he says no, don't bother, then I won't.

It's their group and they should decide what jobs people should fulfill.

[Xenostrata]

Things to do if you have an annoying, needy, and generally unpleasant person in your party, based on level of annoyance:

Slightly annoying: Refuse to buff past the absolutely necessary. Pointedly buff everyone else.

Moderately annoying: Cast grease on that ramp he's about to zerg up.

Painfully annoying: Cast fireball on that grease he is trying to run through. Also, if you have the wild mage belt from Amrath, now is the time to use it.

Ridiculously annoying: Convince the healer to let him die, and then hide the soul stone where someone more forgiving than you can't find/reach it. High ledges, deep lava, and undisarmable traps work well here. If you don't feel like going through the work/trouble, a couple casts of Dispel Magic can be worth a thousand words.

My advice to the ailing caster.

EDIT: This is all based on the assumption that the offender is not contributing as fully as they should be. If you end up killing the annoying guy who would've ended up saving the party from a wipe, the other party members might turn on you.

[ColdNapalm]

The rest I can agree with, but why do most who say this think I'm asking for GH to hit the portals? The trog casters cast fear, which a low will save barb or fighter often don't save vs? GH makes you immune to fear... (ok, the caster should have the trogs down before you get there... but this doesn't always happen... And you end up with a melee or two that's just standing there...

That being said, I do have the reavers ring for fear immunity, but it takes up my strider slot, and a GH clicky for the times when the caster wont. I do believe in having the things I feel are essential to me... including my own GH, Blur, Haste, rage, Displacement, Stoneskin, Etc, Etc... just Seems to be that some constantly tote GH in part 1 of the shroud isn't needed because anyone can hit the portals with a 2, and that's not why I'm asking for it.

To be fair, the cleric should be dropping remove fear on the entire group for 10 sp instead of a wizard having to use 30 sp per person to deal with the fear issue. Now I pretty much always keep GH loaded as soon as I get it because it has a lot of utility...but if a melee wants it so they can be immune to fear when a level 1 cleric spell that cover the entire group can do the same, I have issues with that.

[Blank_Zero]

My new warchanter outkills most "Melee" toons that we pick up while xp grinding. So much fun to hear them whine about buffs when I tell them my blue bar is for me and that they can get haste and songs if they are close-by when I renew mine

[Emili]

That pun made me feel sad inside.
I'm sorry I know it was poor...

Glad you agree with me though. If we can get more casters/healers to stop buffing zerging idiots (exception going to be in PUGs marked Zerg, oc) then maybe natural selection will finally catch up to the unbuffed and that species will die out, to be replaced by a kinder, more considerate melee.

For many melee it's an after thought ... common case of blood lust really and enforced by lower level easy content.

in all honesty, unless you have a lot of money or great UMD (and a lot of money) a caster or bard is the only way a melee can get haste, period.

as for blur, a caster can cast it only...unless one can umd a scroll (for a short time).


Fact is, as a mage, you have a ton of buffs that only you can cast for long enough periods..
Some important first few level spells - blur, displace, resist energy, heroism, haste.

where is the melee going to get that stuff? Just cast it..

As for offensive..you have a myriad of spells controlling and damaging to cast also...which you could do at your leisure.


but honestly, unless the toon is a well geared, well ship buffed, TR with lots of cash, you are a nimrod for not buffing a party...a jerk indeed.


I am leveling up a toon on another server and let me tell you, a resist energy, blur, or heroism is almost impossible to get because of casters ignorant of how important buffing is...

question: why would you assume a level 7 melee could cast haste and blur on himself? or any other buff....really?


I agree some people are needy, but it does help out the 'lesser' classes.

Nothing funner than being a melee in a battle with fire casting mobs, hard hitting mobs, and not be buffed for fire resist, blur,....and regen mobs being fought without haste.


/rant off.

Firewall and the myriad of other damaging spells gave casters a powerful heavy offensive...

Reminiscing there was a time where we were all quite poor melee, arcane and cleric ... mana was dear even in bottled, stick and scroll form. The wizard and cleric spell pool were a far much less and a level five wiz or cleric for instance looked at as uber if they had close to 400 sp – that was a lvl 5 sorcerer like sp pool for the times. Clerics mainly used wands to heal parties – course the enhancements to all their heal spells back then affected every cure scroll and wand in the game – at level cap ten a cleric could heal well into 100+ hp off a single clw wand flick...

Fire wall and many of these did not exist and the caster's limited damage spells held them back in sway regulated to buffs and retaining what mana they could to kill the boss – MM was the main damage spell ... the game was very tight on sp management and the team utilized team resources as a team. The caster was more like the melee in higher level raids in todays game ... the roles reversed - melee cleared the trash and the caster blasted the boss... the guardian of stk, the house P vamp, the marut... the quest was all about clearing the trash eliminating the minions via melee providing a clear safe path for the arcane to eliminate the final foe. The caster like the cleric made sure the melee stayed alive and supported them with buff, some cc and curing through the fights...

Stormcleave has a special place with me as a quest... It was stormcleave I first used my +2 keen flametouch scimitar – I know a piece of junk by today's standard but at the time it made my fighter a powerhouse among the other melee who's weaponry usually was a +1 element of something for the very best of them.

It is also the place where my bard Rosewood was conceived, the seed in my mind as one such SC run I saw the power in versatility of the bard... Jan 2006 there were very few bards early in this game and one particular running of SC a bard served as out cleric and our cc ... The power of fascinate ever impressing.

[MrWizard]

i Agree With Ghoste. Behind By 1 Kill With That Moron? You Should Have Doubled Him.

On A Side Note, If You Do Want To Play Friendly To The Party And Stick Together Like.. Then You Should Be Throwing At Least Haste. It's 25% More Melee Dps For One Simple Spell. I've Been In Way Too Many Groups Lately Where The Caster Just Doesnt Throw Haste And I Don't Understand It.

15%

[Impaqt]

Today I was doing stormcleave outpost (the quest in annvil fire inn, house D) with a melee and a cleric.
The melee said: haste and blur on me.
Me, the f2p wizard, responded: I'm not a buff mage, a good melee shouldn't NEED any buff here or should have some clickies or pots to make up for it.
Melee: You are not an offensive mage either.

Haha.... seriously, I stopped playing clerics because of those people that think the whole DDO universe depend and turn around them.
A wizard, not an offensive class??? That idiot almost died 3 times and yelled for the cleric while I never needed any of his heals (I kept a mark of healing, it's more than enough self-heals 99% of the runs) and I ended up with only a single kill behind him (Around 80 kills. He was desperately trying to keep the lead of course by zerging..)
Then, we all know how it work: I throw a max+emp firewall on a pack of mobs he's running away from while he yelled :''heals and haste!!'' and then said it was stupid to do that because of a single fire giant which was in the pack of mobs ..(he had to say something as his ego was kinda wounded since I'm a buff caster after all..) Later, the other melee that joined since the quest was In Progress told him to stop being so careless. Our hero responded by insulting him, posting his strength and telling him to pvp later, he wouldn't stand a single chance against him etc etc..
For the rest of the quest, I was sending and recieving tells to the second melee and cleric about how I'm sorry for having such a moron in the party since I try to spot them before we start (it's almost impossible, I know).

So yea, sorry spellcasters but *flash news* we only are buff mages now; the clerics, they are healbots only. I bet rogues are only trapmonkeys and bards are poets.
I don't meet that kind of people often but when I do they are so ridiculous that it is not funny anymore.. I'm not really following what the next so-called spellcasting nerfs will be but the vision some melees have about clerics and wiz/sorcs is really unbelievable..

Our buff spells are a curse somehow. Please, let me out-dps those melees whenever I feel like it with my arcane spells, don't nerf us to some sad buff-only bags of mana.

Melee.. Offensive casting.. Defensive.. CC.. doesnt matter. if you are l5+ Wizard you should have Haste and Blur. No exceptions.

[cdemeritt]

To be fair, the cleric should be dropping remove fear on the entire group for 10 sp instead of a wizard having to use 30 sp per person to deal with the fear issue. Now I pretty much always keep GH loaded as soon as I get it because it has a lot of utility...but if a melee wants it so they can be immune to fear when a level 1 cleric spell that cover the entire group can do the same, I have issues with that.

you are correct here... but when was the last time you saw a cleric do that? and to be fair, I was simply pointing out other uses for GH than a to-hit. seems like a lot of people say you don't need GH because you can hit on a 2... Besides, for the shroud I usually don't shrine until the end of pt3, so a full length extended GH from a caster/bard in pt 1 lasts me until then...

[EssenceofEvil]

Depending on the quest.. sometimes I won't even load up on nuke spells and have nothing but buffs and CC type spells.

[taurean430]

you are correct here... but when was the last time you saw a cleric do that? and to be fair, I was simply pointing out other uses for GH than a to-hit. seems like a lot of people say you don't need GH because you can hit on a 2... Besides, for the shroud I usually don't shrine until the end of pt3, so a full length extended GH from a caster/bard in pt 1 lasts me until then...

There is also the point to be made that remove fear grants a +4 morale bonus against fear effects for 10 minutes non extended. This is not the same and should not be mistaken for greater heroism which grants a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks. The target also receives temporary hit points equal to the caster level and immunity to fear.

So it could be said that remove fear is pretty inferior by comparison. It's why all my toons have planar girds.

[Thorzian]

This thread is crippled by the T&C of posting on the forums. OP should be completely shredded for not giving out the most basic required buffs. Giving him any positive feedback on not hasting the group does not benefit the game. If you think for a second that saving mana for another fireball is worth not casting haste on even a single legitimate melee toon, you're deluded.

right on! im all for caster love but the simple fact is that haste, at least, is vital. if you don't feel you need to buff your party then you must feel like you don't need that party. do me and the rest of ddo a favor and don't join the party.

I solo those levels on most of my toons for exactly that reason. the spellpoints last longer when you only have to buff yourself but there are some quests that aren't friendly to some classes. when you need a group you have to play nice and be the team player. and if you're playing a caster that means haste and rage at the least.

and to cdemeritt.. full extended gh last until the end of part 3? do you take coffee breaks in your shroud runs. an extended buff at that level should outlast the quest.

[Thorzian]

15%

yeah, sorry. my finger ht the 2 instead of the 1

[Kominalito]

i'm a <insert mage/cleric/fvs class> and i want to kill everything and i wont be doing anything more than that because i can and i have something to prove to everyone.

can we just make one thread with this in the first post and sticky it? then we can just get cosigners, instead of numerous threads like these that exist only as venue to show how uber some players are. this?

[cdemeritt]

do you take coffee breaks in your shroud runs. an extended buff at that level should outlast the quest.

Well, I shrine at the end of Pt 3, usually to regain clickies... GH doesn't last through a shrine or pt4's death into pt5.... just the point it lasts from the door through, without having to re-apply.