Dev suggestion: Reduce token costs for epic slots

[Junts]

Sounds more like someone has insane luck in epic scroll drops. Good for you.

That said I don't have enough tokens to slot a couple of things simply because I needed tokens for a reset and to get a true heart. Otherwise I'd be only 10 short of slotting what I've got instead of 60 short. Now if I hadn't been waiting since November on getting ONE scroll, I'd be another 30 short.

No, its juts that the hard part of making many epic items involves having lots of cash (ie scrolls) or patience to do stuff that doesn't get tokens (Ie farming the first 10 mobs of chrono or other scroll farm locations) and consequently making epic items is often not conductive to getting the tokens to put in them.

[sephiroth1084]

No, its juts that the hard part of making many epic items involves having lots of cash (ie scrolls) or patience to do stuff that doesn't get tokens (Ie farming the first 10 mobs of chrono or other scroll farm locations) and consequently making epic items is often not conductive to getting the tokens to put in them.

Add to that the fact that at least some epic seals drop only in quests that don't give full tokens, while others have their seals or shards relegated to quests that can be run only infrequently (raids) or are much longer/more difficult than other epics (EDQ1 for example).

It's very possible to obtain items without completing a quest by farming chests, killing monsters, trading and purchasing. Plus, if you run with small groups of players, seals, shards and scrolls tend to get passed around more to those who desire them, or are closer to crafting, further decreasing the time it takes to make an item.

[sirgog]

exactly..

You'd have to be insanely lucky to fully complete an epic abishai set without gaining most of the tokens needed to slot it along the way.

It's fine. Sounds like a complaint with no justification. You probably don't even have a complete 5 piece epic abishai set, yet you cited it as a problem - completely broken logic. Get the set first, then count how many tokens you have. Chances are you will have way more then enough.

I have hundreds of extra tokens, because the items are way harder to get then the tokens.

A guild working together will have one member get all the shards and seals for an Abashai set in 2-3 runs of eChrono. An individual that runs eChrono in PUGs and rolls on all the shards and seals that get put up for roll will have everything (again except the scrolls) in ~15 runs, or will be at worst one or two items away from it.

I can really get behind the OP's suggestion - between various toons, I could use about 300 epic tokens at the moment (and only 30 of them on event items). I run eVON6, eChrono and eDQ2 almost solely for tokens, epic Big Top around 15 times a week and Devil Assault around 5, and other pure token runs too.


A list of things I'd slot, given the tokens:

eSOS, Heaven's Light and +6 Dex (currently using an Aligned Planes to save tokens; Dex purely for reflex save purposes)
Epic Envenomed Cloak (still need the scroll to craft it, tho that can wait until I have the tokens - Good Luck)
Epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers - Toughness and (eventually) +1 to some useful stat
Epic Robe of Dissonance and Epic Robe of the Diabolist - both Toughness (my Wizard swaps between the two)

- That's 200 tokens and there's a lot more I could use too.


IMO the best overall solution would be to sell temporary augment crystals for (quite a bit of) platinum.

I would like to see the token costs dropped but not dramatically, maybe by 5/10 tokens each.

I would also like to see more options for augment crystals and to have them drop as treasure in epic quests (as well as special treasure only crystals)

This. More treasure-only crystals. 'Yellow Augment Crystal of Inherent Fire Resistance +10'. 'Red Augment Crystal of Seeker +4'. Etc.

[Quikster]

/not signed.

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

[sephiroth1084]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Such as?

[PwnHammer40K]

Such as?

Such as the preposterous claim that cake is tastier than pie. WHY, I NEVER! How DARE you!! *smashes fist on table* Sir you must answer. You have insulted lovers of fine food the world over and forced me to defend our honor. En Garde!! *swish swish*

[sillyguyjim]

Slot value is relative from item to item. In the case of the Epic Antique Greataxe you are able to slot everything you need to make a weapon better than or comparable to a greensteel item for much less work (ala 30 tokens). Similarly, if the only character you play is a level 20 paladin w/capstone you can slot various weapons to give you the same functionality as a Mineral II or paladin holy weapon. Any character wanting to "upgrade" to an epic item must make a decision whether it's worth it or not to make the equipment swap.

Part of the issue with the cost of augment slots lies with certain epic items being less useful than equivalent gear. Some of the epics are useful without any augments (SoS, Mask of Comedy, Utility Vest, Spectacles of Spirit Sight to name a few). You would likely swap these items into your gear as soon as you got them and never look back. Because I don't feel like going over the epic list for an exact count, I'm going to say roughly 50% (Please correct me on this if you feel like being diligent) of all epics do not fit into this category. They are items that compete with heavily desired abilities that cannot be slotted easily. To replace these items and retain character functionality (toughness, healing amp, incite, dodge +4 ac, 5/dr, insight +4 ac, etc...) the epic item must provide greater benefit or allow alternate options.

The lucky few who raid 24/7 with an elite group of players across the broad spectrum of epic quests will obtain all the epics they could possibly want for their character/build. By running those epics with the people they know; they will indeed accrue many epic tokens with which to upgrade those select items. For players that do not have the same regular access to raids and are limited to focusing on a single epic item to make their build work or to facilitate a gear change, the situation may be that they receive the epic item much sooner than they have accrued the epic tokens to upgrade it.

Some major effects of the current costs of epics can be broken down as seen below.

Epic Item > Tokens:
+Players are encouraged to run more epics to gain tokens, thus creating more parties to join
+Tokens are a highly priced commodity maintaining the value of True Hearts in the DDO store
-Players looking to slot epic items may find no good compromise with current gear
-Many epic items will be neglected because they are overall weaker than other gear choices
-Gear rearrangement becomes too expensive for consideration as reslotting epics is out of the question.
-Making a poor decision with a slot or seeing an item become less useful/worthless in a future update imposes a huge penalty on a player

Epic Item < Tokens:
+Any epic item will easily see it's true potential and more epic items will be equipped by players
+Epic items can be reslotted as characters change without having to repeat the epic process all over again
+Players will feel less stressed about making a poor choice when spending tokens to slot an item
-True Heart value in the DDO store will decrease dramatically
-Players may be able to abuse the system reslotting epics easily enough to transition from one raid to another
-Lucky players could be geared as well as players who spent months grinding

Let's put luck aside for a second and focus on the progression of what a player might do in both situations.

A) A player loots an epic seal, shard, and scroll in one run (or a few runs) and needs several tokens to upgrade it. This is likely to happen in the newer epics as the drop rate is higher on all but the scrolls (scrolls will be more available soon and would be a consideration). So the player wants to use the new item and starts to run more epics to get the shards. The character has a choice between running a variety of epics or running epic raids exclusively depending on time. If the character runs certain non-raid epics because they are easy, he will likely not see any more epic items (or will not see a worthwhile epic item) and will have spent all of his time grinding for nothing more than the one epic item he wants to complete. If the character chooses instead to run raids because they are fun, he will likely gain many more epic items, especially if he is interested in items that don't slot into other people's builds, or that other players consider worthless epic items; thus fueling his need to run more epics for more tokens. The player finally manages to complete a wonderful epic item and proudly wears it for all of Stormreach to see. Shortly afterwards Turbine decides to release new epic items that provide odd bonuses in a variety of slots. The selected augment no longer becomes optimal and the player must decide whether to a) Re-slot the augment and hope no more changes occur that would make the original augment beneficial or b) Run through the necessary epics to obtain a duplicate of the item to slot with a more appropriate augment, all the while gaining access to more of the epics he wants to equip without having the tokens to slot them. After years of perpetually grinding epics for shards, player realizes his life is in ruins and he must sell his house for the mortgage payment.

B) A player loots an epic seal, shard, and scroll in one run (or a few runs) and has an abundance of tokens to upgrade it. The character expresses his joy and promptly heads to the altar to make the upgrade. The player has gained a new epic item and replaces his old gear immediately resulting in a fulfilling reward for the player. The player then goes on to run several more epics, as it is fun and rewarding, trying his best to win rolls on the epic shards and seals, as well as the base items that may be just as tough to get. The player then uses his tokens to reincarnate into a slightly different class (to make use of his current epic items) and levels up happily knowing that he can easily afford to redo an item if better gear becomes available that allows for more slot consolidation or provides a unique bonus that can't be gained otherwise. Player has the option of running epic quests again for the same item, but may be more willing to let someone new roll on the item as he does not need it and simply enjoys the thrill of running epic quests. After seeing his friend playing a very awesome character build, player decides to create a new character, levels it to epic, and gets to work on gearing his character to the max.

Other considerations:
--The game is not static, Turbine receives monthly compensation from player retention and it is in their best interest to provide new content
--New content can be as exciting for developers as it is for players
--Nobody wants to be stuck treading water, the fact that we do it represents a critical human flaw in the majority
--Many people seem to associate "less grinding" with "easy button." Quest difficulty and gear availability are independent developer choices. To make a game fair, developers adjust difficulty in proportion to available gear. To make a game difficult, developers can adjust difficulty irrespective of the maximum obtainable gear. In a difficult game, no matter how much gear you have, it will always be a challenge; reducing the effectiveness of gear (a core mechanic of RPGs) and making player skill more necessary. Unfortunately, skill is associated with game time and I would hope that any player making major purchases is spending their time elsewhere being more productive. Turbine and ALL OTHER MMO developers see this and are acting on it in an attempt to retain and attract new players.
--There's nothing fun about running the same quest over, and over, and over again--even if you do it naked. If you make it through a quest, you should get a solid reward rather than "I can afford my repair bill with this random loot I sold."

Perhaps there is a balance for situations like this. Perhaps temporary augments would make all the argument dissipate into thin air. Perhaps players deserve time as a reward for contributing to Turbine's success. Perhaps Turbine deserves more respect from the players for developer decisions. This game is designed to make money and anyone putting time into these forums has demonstrated their willingness to remain with the game.


You can argue about epics and "easy buttons" and working "hard" for something all you want, but as it stands at epic level there is: no xp, no massive pile of gold, no major challenge (for those that are serious about epics), only a gleaming 1/30th of a complete epic item reminding you that you're just a mediocre person that is a long way from reaching any of your goals. If someone has the time to spend grinding away for something that could disappear at any time, they can go right ahead. I; however, will put my voice in favor of taking the time out of 'challenge'.

Subtract 10 tokens per slot for the augment or introduce temporary (6 hour or more) augments that can be bought with platinum. Leave True Druidic hearts at the same price. More people can slot their epic items (work is still required to get the item itself) and new epic content can be developed that provides a challenge (and even more powerful gear) to those looking to encounter one. I would really like to see a dungeon or boss that keeps even the best geared players on their toes (think backup, backup tank and dispel magic; or smart casting)...at least until a bigger boss comes out.

---------------------------
No sig, yet...

[sillyguyjim]

In my oversight, I did not consider the Abbot raid as challenging enough for players of all gear levels. I would say Abbot is a wonderful example of quest design that continues to test players. For that matter, any quest that provides a separation of players has the potential of being very challenging, and depending on the separation provides for diversity in the groups that undertake them.

[sephiroth1084]

Well said, sillyguyjim, even if you were even more verbose than I tend to be.

And you hit the nail on the head, or a few nails on their respective heads. The challenge in creating epic items isn't in how many completions it takes. At some point, any quest repeated often enough sees the challenge it poses to a give player or group slip. The biggest problem with the high cost of slotting epic items is that moving a single item, replacing one item, or making a mistake can cost 30+ epic runs.

If you run a raid 30 times, you'll likely acquire at least one or two pieces of gear that you're after, and when you gain it/them, you'll likely equip it immediately, or as soon as you get whatever complementary piece of equipment you needed. This isn't true for many pieces of epic gear: you may spend 20 or 30 runs acquiring an item or two, and then not even be able to equip it because it won't fit into your equipment until you can slot it.

In my case, with the Abishai gear, I can't equip the helm until I get and slot the bracers, and there isn't much point in wearing the bracers for me unless I can get the 3 piece set bonus, but I can't wear the gloves until I slot them as well. So, not only do I need to run the raid enough times to get the Shard and Seal for 3 items, get lucky and have 3 scrolls drop, or buy/trade for them, I then also need at least 80 epic tokens just to equip the stuff. In fact, I can't equip the Cavalry Plate until I equip the Helm of Frost, which, is dependent upon equipping and slotting the Scorched Bracers, which in turn is predicated on equipping and slotting the Charged Gauntlets.

Meanwhile, I have other epic items that also need to be slotted. I'm clearly not the only person in this sort of situation, and the game has enough senseless grinding in it already.

[Auran82]

lol.

You could at least myddo me to at least ATTEMPT to verify your nonsense replies.

There was a measure of tongue in cheek involved with my comment and besides, I'm pretty sure the world would implode if anyone MyDDO's you for any reason

I am (and always have been) for lowering the costs slightly (by maybe 5 or so) to make it a little less painful to reslot an item, but the main thing I would prefer to see is augments dropping as epic loot, fills the requirement that things like the epic red dragon helm do, instant gratification loot. I would also like to see other special loot drop only crystals but hopefully the epic reboot whenever it comes will make most of our complaints null and void.

Overall I must be one of the lucky ones who has made more epic items that I can slot (not counting pirated epics) and have quite a few without anything in their augment slots, but overall I have used (from memory) 7 augment crystals.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Such as?

Such as you claiming the price of augment crystals are too steep just because _you_ have more epic items than to do with. Basing your argument solely on your anecdotal evidence.

[urusaikuneyaro]

Because I'm tired of the insinuation that the Cove gear is the reason behind this post, some of my unslotted gear:

Kundarak Warding Shield (1 empty blue)
Kundarak Warding Shield (1 empty blue, 1 empty purple)
Staff of Inner Sight (1 empty blue)
Belt of the Moranon (1 empty yellow)
Helm of the Moranon (1 empty yellow)
Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger (1 empty red)
Flint (1 empty red)
Gem of Many Facets (1 empty yellow)
Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers (1 empty yellow)
Antique Greataxe (1 empty red)
Diabolist's Robe (1 empty blue, 1 empty colorless)
Hruvyah's Medallion (1 empty green)

Then I'm just the scroll away from crafting about a half dozen or so other epic items, some of which are a high priority for slots (as in, they replace something that has an effect that needs to be replicated in order for them to fit into my gear) that I could finish via purchase if I choose to--at the moment I'm waiting to see if I pull.

On top of all of that are the Crystal Cove items that need slotting, and I didn't make more than one of any item or even all of the items.

You have all those epic items and are complaining? Somewhere, the world's smallest violin is playing just for you.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

You have all those epic items and are complaining? Somewhere, the world's smallest violin is playing just for you.

Yup, the QQ is strong on this one.

[Junts]

You have all those epic items and are complaining? Somewhere, the world's smallest violin is playing just for you.

Since in many cases the items are not usable or an upgrade until slotted, it's kind of relevant.

I have characters running around sans toughness because I dont have the tokens to put it into their epic marilith chains and stuff.

The way that epic items work on DDO means that, for any given zone, you have a considerable 'build up' time where you will not be making any items - where you are intiially running and finding the first 1-2 pieces of each item in the area. Then you will hit a point where you start making items rapidly because you only need 1 piece to finish most or all of the items that drop in that location. If you actually need to use many of the items you make, you will quickly overwhelm your dungeon token reserves.

The curve of tokens saved to items available isn't even, and while early on you wish you had the items, later you find yourself realizing that you can't use your item until you socket 3 things into existing slots that are on the item you're removing.

Outside of situations where people raid a ton without needing anything at all (eg tomehunting) or where they still have big stores from before raid tokens were useful for anything, its actually quite rare for a dedicated player to get tokens faster than they use them on items, and this quickly reduces further if you're making red dragonscale armors and/or tring characters.

[sephiroth1084]

Such as you claiming the price of augment crystals are too steep just because _you_ have more epic items than to do with. Basing your argument solely on your anecdotal evidence.

You have all those epic items and are complaining? Somewhere, the world's smallest violin is playing just for you.

Actually, nearly everyone I know who runs epics with any regularity is in a varyingly sized same boat. Some are 20-50 behind, and some others are behind in the hundreds as well.

Sirgog chimed in to say that he's pretty far behind, and the man hardly runs anything but epic quests and raids, and does so (usually) very efficiently. He also is on a regular Epic Devil Assault schedule.

Junts chimed in to point out how big a deficit he has between tokens and slots, even if he has a more positive outlook on it than I do, and he runs a lot of epics from what I understand.

Sure, if you run epics in mostly PUGs or very infrequently and tend to accrue one completed epic item per 15-30 runs, then I could see how you would be so callous on this point, but if you run with friends or guildmates regularly, you, too, will likely find yourself well behind on tokens.

And aside from simply trolling the thread, why not state why you think that requiring 60 epic runs to finish off one item (with 2 slots) is reasonable. Or why you think it is reasonable for someone to have to run 200 quests in order to finish off their items?

[sirgog]

And aside from simply trolling the thread, why not state why you think that requiring 60 epic runs to finish off one item (with 2 slots) is reasonable. Or why you think it is reasonable for someone to have to run 200 quests in order to finish off their items?

I think of it this way:

Once you've got your seal and shard of an item, and the resources to trade for the scroll, why on earth should you need to run Epic Big Top 30 times to make the item usable?

[HallowedOne]

I think of it this way:

Once you've got your seal and shard of an item, and the resources to trade for the scroll, why on earth should you need to run Epic Big Top 30 times to make the item usable?

Indeed, good thing that the 5-item abishai set gives me heavy fort, toughness, gfl, etc.

[Forzah]

You can convert raid tokens into dungeon tokens.

I'm such a noob. Thanks for pointing this out, I've never seen it anywhere before...

[Shade]

It took me months to run out of those, and I lost half my tokens due to the token loss bug and wasn't playing when they were reimbursed to get them back. I still know people with stacks of 100+ raid tokens they have yet to get into converting.

heh good ole token loss bug.

Funny thing I gained tokens off that bug. Tho no critics, No not enough to sway my opinion on this matter..

Took me forever to convert my raid tokens lol. Good news is that new firey golem dude lets you convert them ultra fast. No more 7+ seconds per token.

I dunno talk all you want about me.. But I've gained my 1000+ tokens, sloted countless items. I'm as aware as anyone exactly how hard/easy it is to slot them.

For a time .. Slotting tokens was hard. At least for alts. That time was when they were all BTC, and you could not convert raid tokens. That time has changed.

It's not hard. Not anymore. And it will be even easier now since epic was severely toned down.

[Blank_Zero]

Hmmm. . well most of my Epic items do not even have the slots filled, even tho I have more than enough Tokens to do so. ..Many of the slots are redundant with other gear in the game.

Now, I have 100s of Epic Dungeon as well as 100+ Epic Raid takens banked, so if I thought they were worth while to slot, I would.

Sounds to me like you have a bunch of event gear without any other gear in the game.

You need to work for what you want.

You're talking about sephi here right? Cuz I'm laughing hard at the last two lines here.