How to "fix" dreamspitter and staff of the shadow

[LookingForABentoBox]

I don't know whether these ideas would be appropriate substitutions or whether they would be over or under powered, but I'm just going to throw some ideas out and see if the ddo community has any good suggestions for the U9 versions of the dreamspitter and staff of the shadow. The upcoming problem is that in U9 what we call "autocrit" situations will instead of "auto-extra damage" situations and the old method of someone without significant melee ability being able to kill held monsters by smacking them with a dreamspitter won't be effective.

TL;DR version: Let's brainstorm new versions of dreamspitter and staff of the shadow for them to be effective in Update 9

Flavor text:
Dreamspitter: a weapon that strikes down the spirit, rather than the flesh
Staff of the Shadow: Invested with the arcane power of someone/something called "The Shadow" who has/which has an inclination towards destruction.

-Add Impact (like keen but for blunt weapons)
-Expand threat range
-Change "chance to level drain on critical hit" to "level drain on critical hit"
-Make the life stealing/level drain effect a proc based on percentage
-Make the effect every hit but it has a save (like disruption)
-Add stat damage to it, on every hit or every critical hit
---To a random stat
---To constitution (I don't think this fits in the theme of dreamspitter though, I don't like it
---To a particular stat (str/dex/con/etc.)
---To a random stat of one of several, i.e., randomly attacks int, wis, or cha.
-Increase the amount of levels drained per level drain (right now it drains 1d3 levels per level drain, change to 1d6 or something similar
-Add:
---Paralyze/Improved Paralyze
---Slowburst/Improved Slowburst

Also important, perhaps, is whether or not the bonus to all damage done on helpless enemies also applies to stat damage. Will we do more stat damage per hit than we did before U9?


These are just some random ideas that came to me. What are some other suggestions?

[Missing_Minds]

These are just some random ideas that came to me. What are some other suggestions?

*facepalm* how about make it work like Lifestealing did originally. 1-3 negative levels on any crit.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=12

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=20

[patang01]

I think they're already changing it to level drain on critical and that is about the only thing they should do. I doubt this was ever meant to be the Epic woo woo it is now. Now if anyone want to have a increased chance of level drain they're going to have to get the improved critical feat just like all of us does in order to get a better crit chance for our weapons.

Lets not make these items more powerful than they are - lets just adjust them so they level drain on crit. That's powerful enough.

[Glenalth]

*facepalm* how about make it work like Lifestealing did originally. 1-3 negative levels on any crit.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=12

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=20

It would be nice to have the old life stealing back.

[LookingForABentoBox]

*facepalm* how about make it work like Lifestealing did originally. 1-3 negative levels on any crit.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=12

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=20

I read those posts, but I'm not convinced it solves the problem. It does allow the dreamspitter to be a good weapon for quarterstaff melee builds, but I I think it should be a weapon casters can use to kill helpless mobs, the changes to make it do level drain on all critical hits makes it a good weapon for staff users but not for casters killing held or flesh-to-stoned mobs. IMHO.

edit: and one of my suggestions was just that, make lifestealing did what it did originally. I just didn't word it that way so people who weren't aware of the original version would know what the U9 changes would do.
edit2: Also, suggesting alternative fixes to a dev's proposed fix is hardly facepalm worthy. Heck, that's exactly what people are doing to suggest a better system of changing the damage spells (barring those of the "any change is bad" camp)

I think they're already changing it to level drain on critical and that is about the only thing they should do. I doubt this was ever meant to be the Epic woo woo it is now. Now if anyone want to have a increased chance of level drain they're going to have to get the improved critical feat just like all of us does in order to get a better crit chance for our weapons.

Lets not make these items more powerful than they are - lets just adjust them so they level drain on crit. That's powerful enough.

Just for the record, arcanes were using the dreamspitter to kill held mobs even before there were epic mobs.

It would be nice to have the old life stealing back.

What do you mean by the old life stealing? Level drain on every crit, or the old way of doing things, auto critting and level draining them to death?

[Zerkul]

Give mobs dispellable deathward spell or disjuctionable deathblock items. Leave the things as they work now .

[Missing_Minds]

edit2: Also, suggesting alternative fixes to a dev's proposed fix is hardly facepalm worthy. Heck, that's exactly what people are doing to suggest a better system of changing the damage spells (barring those of the "any change is bad" camp)

emm... you want to fix that which is...

+5 raid loot, ml 14
Greater Evil Outsider Bane.
made of crystal/glass to break quori DR
+2 to enchantment DCs
can be unlocked for "holy" damage. (ml 18)
And...
does negative levels on crits

Seems pretty darn unbroken to me.

Or...
+5 non raid loot, ml 12
lesser vampirisum
can have maming, infection, or petrafying properties added to it. (still ml 12)
and...
does negative levels on crits.

My opinion, facepalm.

[Slorgs]

-Add Impact (like keen but for blunt weapons)
-Expand threat range
-Change "chance to level drain on critical hit" to "level drain on critical hit"
-Make the life stealing/level drain effect a proc based on percentage
-Make the effect every hit but it has a save (like disruption)
-Add stat damage to it, on every hit or every critical hit
---To a random stat
---To constitution (I don't think this fits in the theme of dreamspitter though, I don't like it
---To a particular stat (str/dex/con/etc.)
---To a random stat of one of several, i.e., randomly attacks int, wis, or cha.
-Increase the amount of levels drained per level drain (right now it drains 1d3 levels per level drain, change to 1d6 or something similar
-Add:
---Paralyze/Improved Paralyze
---Slowburst/Improved Slowburst

I think it should be able to vorpal anything up to purple names, and cast wail of the banshee every swing DC 99. I would also like it to be a starter item off the boat pls.

[Auran82]

I read those posts, but I'm not convinced it solves the problem. It does allow the dreamspitter to be a good weapon for quarterstaff melee builds, but I I think it should be a weapon casters can use to kill helpless mobs, the changes to make it do level drain on all critical hits makes it a good weapon for staff users but not for casters killing held or flesh-to-stoned mobs. IMHO.

They could use spells (now with a bonus 50% damage)

Just for the record, arcanes were using the dreamspitter to kill held mobs even before there were epic mobs.

Puncturing weapons were also popular.

It sounds as though the dreamspitter is being changed back to its original version, level drain on a crit, not the chance to drain it is now. Sounds about right to me.

[stockwizard5]

Caster's (with no to-hit) have always had a melee way to contribute to killing helpless mobs. For a long (LONG) time some nice puncturing (whatevers) did the job but in trying to get duel WoP rapier crit rage barbs under control the caster/bards got nerf'ette'ed.

So now the best option is one of the level drain on crit weapons (since helpless was crit and no confirm).

With helpless no longer crit and casters/bards unlikely to be able to actually hit/confirm a helpless mob (kinda makes the word helpless have a new definition) I am not sure I know any options (curse maybe)?

So why do we need an option? Well fun of course! As a caster when I make mob(s) helpless it is NOT fun to just sit around and watch the melee kill it - I like to help.

Insufficient Suggestion: Helpless Mobs should be auto-hit and auto-confirm (on crit). Then at least we can get some neg levels, or stat drain, or vamp, or whatever to land! Not as much as now but at least something that is better than just standing around with our staffs up our ...

[drac317]

why should casters have a way to melee held mobs

you already contributed by holding the mob

sit down shut up and watch my acrobat show you how to use a staff

[Syllph]

Let's see, a caster can hold a mob and beat it down almost as effectively as a hard hitting melee. Even Epic mobs fall to 20-30 hits of the fabled woo-woo stick. It's no wonder they're nerfing it. It hurts my caster too, but seriously people this thing was simply way too over-powered.

Woo-woo you will be missed.

[sephiroth1084]

Now casters will have very cheap spells getting their damage increased by 50% to kill those held mobs.

I'll miss the ability to melee them down, but not greatly so.

No, what I'll really miss, as I've posted in the other dozen threads started or shifted to this same topic is the ability to hold mobs in my CC for longer by draining them for free with the 'Spitter. I'm sad to see that utility going, but not overly so...not yet anyway. We'll see how I feel when I can just cheaply nuke the monsters instead.

[Missing_Minds]

No, what I'll really miss, as I've posted in the other dozen threads started or shifted to this same topic is the ability to hold mobs in my CC for longer by draining them for free with the 'Spitter. I'm sad to see that utility going, but not overly so...not yet anyway. We'll see how I feel when I can just cheaply nuke the monsters instead.

My opinion... melees need to work with casters more. Melees can drain dex, con, and str. Dex and con directly relate to reflex and fort saves. Sure the mob isn't helpless but that is a -4 (maybe -5) to their saves. Also when at that "helpless" point they take 50% more damage. Seems like a win/win situation for the team to me.

[Seliana]

As far as retaining usefulness without being the overpowered weapons they used to be:

Would it be so difficult to code the two weapons to proc on helpless targets instead of criticals, then set the proc chance to whatever % chance turbine wants them to work at?

It would let Turbine control the power of them manually while forcing the wizard or sorcerer to actually spec away from damage or dc's into strength and +hit gear in order to be able to land the ac required. This could make it a valid style of clearing epic trash at a cost of the wizards arcane power which makes it a trade off for those that still want the option.

It would also have the added benefit of needing to work with melee once the caster is out of SP. Since it would require a melee to stun the trash and the arcane could run up and still contribute instead of sitting out in the cold waiting.

[Geonis]

WOOT! Fixed for Update 9.

Happy to report that these changes have now been made for Update 9: Life-Stealing will return to its original behavior of occuring on all critical hits.

Edit- As seen here.

[Glenalth]

What do you mean by the old life stealing? Level drain on every crit, or the old way of doing things, auto critting and level draining them to death?

The old way, not the current or future ways.

[LookingForABentoBox]

emm... you want to fix that which is...

+5 raid loot, ml 14
Greater Evil Outsider Bane.
made of crystal/glass to break quori DR
+2 to enchantment DCs
can be unlocked for "holy" damage. (ml 18)
And...
does negative levels on crits

Seems pretty darn unbroken to me.

Or...
+5 non raid loot, ml 12
lesser vampirisum
can have maming, infection, or petrafying properties added to it. (still ml 12)
and...
does negative levels on crits.

My opinion, facepalm.

You assume "fixing" means "adding," and not "changing." I meant "make it different." I said "let's brainstorm new versions." In any event, you certainly should have posted your point in a way that your view was expressed to the reader.

They could use spells (now with a bonus 50% damage)

That's a good point, though we'll have to see how much the sp-discount plays into the game.

Let's see, a caster can hold a mob and beat it down almost as effectively as a hard hitting melee. Even Epic mobs fall to 20-30 hits of the fabled woo-woo stick. It's no wonder they're nerfing it. It hurts my caster too, but seriously people this thing was simply way too over-powered.

Woo-woo you will be missed.

Though I don't have statistics to back me up, "almost as effective" strikes me as an exaggeration.

[donfilibuster]

Casters lose autocrits but gain extra damage from spells over helpless that we didn't had before.
Gotta wait and see if the fights are manageable that way, considering the other changes like short duration and high saves.